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> The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against.

> The features women are attracted to: confidence, money, physical prowess, etc. all go hand in hand with the masculine behaviors society is rallying against. I think this is wrong - like 180 degrees wrong. The mode of failure I see most often for men is low EQ - misreading the wants / needs of the woman and delivering the wrong things with no awareness of where they are going wrong. The reason why women find confidence attractive is because low self esteem / insecurity is often the root cause of negative and harmful behaviors. See pride and envy occupying the lowest circles of hell. Many guys totally misread this as women want assholes, rather than incessant approval seeking behavior indicates low self esteem / insecurity which has the potential to make her life hell. It’s not that you can’t be kind to women, you just need to be doing it for the right reasons - because you feel this is the right way to conduct yourself - and not because you are scared that you are unworthy of love or admiration.

ericmcer 4y ago
180 degrees wrong? So women are attracted to shy, poor, unhealthy guys? Why did I waste my 20s in the gym!! Damn I wish I had your pearls of wisdom back then. Women don’t want assholes, they want security, and the traits I listed are all indications of security, whereas being emotionally sensitive is less so. Hell everyone wants security, it’s why confidence is so attractive.
- pfisherman 4y ago
  A shy, unhealthy, broke guy who is comfortable in his own skin will have happier more fulfilling relationships with women than a swole, rich, narcissist. Narcissism btw, is a one of those negative behaviors whose root cause is insecurity / low self esteem. If your time in the gym was a path to being more comfortable with who you are then it wasn’t a waste of time. Maybe you were good enough all along and just didn’t realize / believe it
  - lucaspm98 4y ago
    You may be right, but the point is that guy would have no shot at finding a relationship. Being comfortable with who you are would naturally stem from being wealthy, handsome, social, and fit.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      Being comfortable with who you are would naturally stem from being wealthy, handsome, social, and fit there are a lot more factors that help with being confident with yourself. i am none of these things: wealthy, handsome, social, and fit yet i am quite confident with myself. i'd say that with all the mistakes my parents may have made, this is one of the positive things i got out of my childhood. it probably also helped that i grew up in an environment where these things didn't matter. there was noone wealthy in my school, noone telling me that i had to be handsome, or that not being social or not being fit were bad.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    > Narcissism btw, is a one of those negative behaviors whose root cause is insecurity / low self esteem. [citation needed] (no snark intended)
    - pfisherman 4y ago
      I mean a quick Google search brings up a lot of results. Here is one cherry picked news release / article. https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2021/march/narcissism-driven-by-insecurity--not-grandiose-sense-of-self--ne.html https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2021/march/...
      - DangitBobby 4y ago
        Not able to fully read everything in the actual paper [1], but here are some things I found as notable: > We are interested in the nature of narcissism. Narcissism is a personality disorder that is conceptualized as excessive self-love and manifests as a grandiose sense of self-importance, entitlement, and superiority (American Psychiatric Association, 2013; Auerbach, 1993; Freud, 1914). > More recently, two subtypes of narcissism have been distinguished. “Vulnerable narcissism” characterized by low self-esteem, anxiety about attachments and extreme sensitivity to criticism and “grandiose narcissism”, which manifests as high self-esteem, self-aggrandizement and self-importance (Dickinson & Pincus, 2003; Rohmann, Neumann, Herner, & Bierhoff, 2012; Wink, 1991). This distinction has shown itself to be fruitful - vulnerable narcissism is associated with low self-esteem, life-satisfaction, and interdependent self-construct. Conversely, grandiose narcissism is associated with high self-esteem and life-satisfaction and an independent self-construction (Rohmann, Hanke, & Bierhoff, 2019; Rose, 2002). These differential attitudes also present behaviorally. Both grandiose and vulnerable narcissists have a tendency to deliberately induce jealousy in their romantic partners, but for different reasons - a vulnerable narcissist is motivated by insecurities and seeks reassurance to compensate for low self-esteem whereas a grandiose narcissist induces jealousy primarily to gain power and control in the relationship (Tortoriello, Hart, Richardson, & Tullett, 2017). > . . . > Grandiose narcissism seems to resemble psychopathy in many respects, which raises the possibility that the tessellation of these conditions could be improved. It appears to be the case that grandiose narcissism might be better understood as a manifestation of psychopathy. This notion is supported by the finding that individuals who strongly exhibit psychopathic traits also tend to have a grandiose sense of self-worth (Gustafson & Ritzer, 1995; Miller, Sleep, Crowe, & Lynam, 2020). Conversely, vulnerable narcissism might be better conceived of as “narcissism proper” or “primary narcissism”. Looks like they are pretty much trying to rebrand grandiose narcissism to psychopathy as you might suggest. Not really sure I see any value in changing the widely understood definition. I also didn't see any numbers about which type was actually more prevalent, however. Again, I was only able to do a cursory review. At this point, I think it's fair to conclude that there's more than one type of narcissism and that one of them probably has nothing to do with low self esteem, while the other probably does. 1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188692...!
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Society is very clearly railing against men trying to be assertive to the point that many would opt to not try at all. At the same time, we see research with token correlations coming out, specifically mentioning Western women respond positively to men with "dark triad" attributes. Even the "quit dating assholes" stereotype is obvious, with women falling for the typical cocky jerk who goes against what society claims a man should be. Then it turns out, that guy ended up being problematic and scarred the girl for life. Does that mean assertiveness has to be dark? No. But frankly, society is doing a lot to kill the "dark assertiveness" while not doing anything to insert "light assertiveness", if you're willing to view it that way. We're not exactly raising boys to be cowboys and gentlemen, we're raising them to be doormats and appeal to women in ways which clearly aren't dropping panties.
- pfisherman 4y ago
  There is a difference between being assertive and being unaware / insensitive to the thoughts and feelings of others. Being kind and compassionate does not mean that you are a doormat - because kindness and compassion spreads from within starting with kindness and compassion for yourself. The seven virtues provides a useful framework to think about this. Prudence (emotional intelligence) gives rise to justice (knowing what is owed to whom), which gives rise to fortitude (assertiveness), which gives rise to moderation. Moderation without fortitude is cowardice. Fortitude without justice is tyranny. And justice without prudence is injustice. A little esoteric, but St Augustine knew a few things about life :)
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    You're conveniently talking past me. Let me make it simple. It is very evident that [confident jerk] > [lacking confidence]. Kindness and compassion are not substitutes for confidence and assertiveness, as far as both anecdotes and token evidence goes. As far as society goes, it is removing [confident jerk] in boys. It is not replacing it with [confidence]. It is also not teaching girls to actively value any of your other supposed virtues. Congratulations, most boys are now [lacking confidence], one of the few measuring standards. Your "useful framework" does not align with the reality of the western world.
Tainnor 4y ago
> low self esteem / insecurity is often the root cause of negative and harmful behaviors. Low self esteem and insecurity aren't the problem. Lots of people suffer from it through little fault of their own and, frankly, people who think they're always right and never question themselves can be just as toxic. The problem is people repressing their insecurities, acting out and making other people responsible for their pain, instead of facing their insecurities head on e.g. through therapy.

ericmcer 4y ago

180 degrees wrong? So women are attracted to shy, poor, unhealthy guys? Why did I waste my 20s in the gym!! Damn I wish I had your pearls of wisdom back then. Women don’t want assholes, they want security, and the traits I listed are all indications of security, whereas being emotionally sensitive is less so. Hell everyone wants security, it’s why confidence is so attractive.

pfisherman 4y ago
A shy, unhealthy, broke guy who is comfortable in his own skin will have happier more fulfilling relationships with women than a swole, rich, narcissist. Narcissism btw, is a one of those negative behaviors whose root cause is insecurity / low self esteem. If your time in the gym was a path to being more comfortable with who you are then it wasn’t a waste of time. Maybe you were good enough all along and just didn’t realize / believe it
- lucaspm98 4y ago
  You may be right, but the point is that guy would have no shot at finding a relationship. Being comfortable with who you are would naturally stem from being wealthy, handsome, social, and fit.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    Being comfortable with who you are would naturally stem from being wealthy, handsome, social, and fit there are a lot more factors that help with being confident with yourself. i am none of these things: wealthy, handsome, social, and fit yet i am quite confident with myself. i'd say that with all the mistakes my parents may have made, this is one of the positive things i got out of my childhood. it probably also helped that i grew up in an environment where these things didn't matter. there was noone wealthy in my school, noone telling me that i had to be handsome, or that not being social or not being fit were bad.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  > Narcissism btw, is a one of those negative behaviors whose root cause is insecurity / low self esteem. [citation needed] (no snark intended)
  - pfisherman 4y ago
    I mean a quick Google search brings up a lot of results. Here is one cherry picked news release / article. https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2021/march/narcissism-driven-by-insecurity--not-grandiose-sense-of-self--ne.html https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2021/march/...
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      Not able to fully read everything in the actual paper [1], but here are some things I found as notable: > We are interested in the nature of narcissism. Narcissism is a personality disorder that is conceptualized as excessive self-love and manifests as a grandiose sense of self-importance, entitlement, and superiority (American Psychiatric Association, 2013; Auerbach, 1993; Freud, 1914). > More recently, two subtypes of narcissism have been distinguished. “Vulnerable narcissism” characterized by low self-esteem, anxiety about attachments and extreme sensitivity to criticism and “grandiose narcissism”, which manifests as high self-esteem, self-aggrandizement and self-importance (Dickinson & Pincus, 2003; Rohmann, Neumann, Herner, & Bierhoff, 2012; Wink, 1991). This distinction has shown itself to be fruitful - vulnerable narcissism is associated with low self-esteem, life-satisfaction, and interdependent self-construct. Conversely, grandiose narcissism is associated with high self-esteem and life-satisfaction and an independent self-construction (Rohmann, Hanke, & Bierhoff, 2019; Rose, 2002). These differential attitudes also present behaviorally. Both grandiose and vulnerable narcissists have a tendency to deliberately induce jealousy in their romantic partners, but for different reasons - a vulnerable narcissist is motivated by insecurities and seeks reassurance to compensate for low self-esteem whereas a grandiose narcissist induces jealousy primarily to gain power and control in the relationship (Tortoriello, Hart, Richardson, & Tullett, 2017). > . . . > Grandiose narcissism seems to resemble psychopathy in many respects, which raises the possibility that the tessellation of these conditions could be improved. It appears to be the case that grandiose narcissism might be better understood as a manifestation of psychopathy. This notion is supported by the finding that individuals who strongly exhibit psychopathic traits also tend to have a grandiose sense of self-worth (Gustafson & Ritzer, 1995; Miller, Sleep, Crowe, & Lynam, 2020). Conversely, vulnerable narcissism might be better conceived of as “narcissism proper” or “primary narcissism”. Looks like they are pretty much trying to rebrand grandiose narcissism to psychopathy as you might suggest. Not really sure I see any value in changing the widely understood definition. I also didn't see any numbers about which type was actually more prevalent, however. Again, I was only able to do a cursory review. At this point, I think it's fair to conclude that there's more than one type of narcissism and that one of them probably has nothing to do with low self esteem, while the other probably does. 1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188692...!

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

Society is very clearly railing against men trying to be assertive to the point that many would opt to not try at all. At the same time, we see research with token correlations coming out, specifically mentioning Western women respond positively to men with "dark triad" attributes. Even the "quit dating assholes" stereotype is obvious, with women falling for the typical cocky jerk who goes against what society claims a man should be. Then it turns out, that guy ended up being problematic and scarred the girl for life. Does that mean assertiveness has to be dark? No. But frankly, society is doing a lot to kill the "dark assertiveness" while not doing anything to insert "light assertiveness", if you're willing to view it that way. We're not exactly raising boys to be cowboys and gentlemen, we're raising them to be doormats and appeal to women in ways which clearly aren't dropping panties.

pfisherman 4y ago
There is a difference between being assertive and being unaware / insensitive to the thoughts and feelings of others. Being kind and compassionate does not mean that you are a doormat - because kindness and compassion spreads from within starting with kindness and compassion for yourself. The seven virtues provides a useful framework to think about this. Prudence (emotional intelligence) gives rise to justice (knowing what is owed to whom), which gives rise to fortitude (assertiveness), which gives rise to moderation. Moderation without fortitude is cowardice. Fortitude without justice is tyranny. And justice without prudence is injustice. A little esoteric, but St Augustine knew a few things about life :)
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  You're conveniently talking past me. Let me make it simple. It is very evident that [confident jerk] > [lacking confidence]. Kindness and compassion are not substitutes for confidence and assertiveness, as far as both anecdotes and token evidence goes. As far as society goes, it is removing [confident jerk] in boys. It is not replacing it with [confidence]. It is also not teaching girls to actively value any of your other supposed virtues. Congratulations, most boys are now [lacking confidence], one of the few measuring standards. Your "useful framework" does not align with the reality of the western world.

Tainnor 4y ago

> low self esteem / insecurity is often the root cause of negative and harmful behaviors. Low self esteem and insecurity aren't the problem. Lots of people suffer from it through little fault of their own and, frankly, people who think they're always right and never question themselves can be just as toxic. The problem is people repressing their insecurities, acting out and making other people responsible for their pain, instead of facing their insecurities head on e.g. through therapy.