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> The entire content column is only 600 pixels wide on my 1080p monitor Hot take - we need to get over maximizing browser windows. We aren't often using 14" s

> The entire content column is only 600 pixels wide on my 1080p monitor Hot take - we need to get over maximizing browser windows. We aren't often using 14" screens anymore, and neither are we browsing at 480p. We're rapidly approaching the point where it just makes no sense, yet people persist in old habits and then can't see that their (now) counterproductive behaviors are causing some of their problems. I switched to a 40" 4k TV a few years back. It took me a while to break myself of wanting to maximize things, but I had to because the screen is on a desk in front of me, and it's close enough that it's impossible to focus on all at once. I often use a quarter of it for an equivalent 1080p screen, but far more often I'm just throwing windows where I want sized for what I want, zoomed to appropriate comfort, because it's a wall of screen in front of me and ignoring that is counterproductive. If you have a small screen and you want to maximize windows because of that and the website you're looking at isn't using the space effectively, zoom it. All the browsers support zoom now. Stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

croes 4y ago
So you are saying the user should adapt to the style and not the content to the user.
- kbenson 4y ago
  Concessions can and be made on both sides, and expecting to be use ever larger and wider screens and expecting to still be able to maxi my ise windows is reaching an inflection point where it makes less and less sense, so docking point from a design which doesn't cater to poor habits is sort of silly. But what I was actually saying is less to do with the design in question and was more about people letting habits continue past the point of them being useful and sometimes well past the point of being harmful. What spurred my statement could have had nothing to do with some new design (and this isn't the first time I've stated it). Another way to look at it is that I can and have made this statement in isolation to design, in a discussion that was more about maximizing windows in the general case. Linking it too closely to the design in question would be to miss a lot of the point I was trying to make.
cantSpellSober 4y ago
That's a really tired take, developer-centricity instead of user-. Line length too long in the current container width? Divide the text into columns.
- kbenson 4y ago
  > developer-centricity instead of user Hardly. The user centric take is mobile, is the majority of all website traffic and I'm not even addressing at all. What I'm doing is making a case that desktop users actually make better use of their monitors that have gotten larger over time, and not just maximizes windows, and for developers to not assume everyone else maximizes windows. Most people browse using a mobile device now, so really this is about the dwindling few left that have a personal desktop computer they use. That's gamers, professionals and office workers. I think most of those have already learnt this lesson, that when you need to have multiple programs opened at once, maximizing one isn't super effective. > Line length too long in the current container width? Divide the text into columns. Or just maximize for no reason and have room for other windows if you want, or zoom the content, whichever makes the most sense for your current situation. Requiring someone design their site around being able to dynamically expand to multiple columns, and figure out how to make that work well with what may be side menus and any number of other design choices all because a minority (probably a minority of a minority) set of users wants to maximize to their own detriment seems kind of ridiculous. People know how to zoom. They do it all the time on sites that are legitimately hard to read or when they are having problems (if I happen to be without my glasses I zoom the shit out of sites). The only people I hear complaining about this are developers who expect maximizing to continue to have the same benefit it did a decade or two ago even though everything else has changes, which is why I think it's rich that this is being called developer centric.
  - cantSpellSober 4y ago
    > The user centric take is mobile Mobile-first, but supporting wide displays too. Optimize for line length, break into columns in wide containers. Don't "blame" your users for maximizing windows or prescribe an optimal viewport width. (thanks for discussing)
Dylan16807 4y ago
Half a 1080p monitor is still 960 pixels wide.
- kbenson 4y ago
  So zoom a little if it's a problem? It's a few clicks, or holding a keyboard button and scrolling in most browsers. If it's still easily readable without zooming, congratulations, you've found a site that is easy to have open along side other things. In the meantime, I bet it works well for mobile, which is likely the majority of traffic they'll see, and is often harder to zoom effectively and still retain an effective overall readability experience, since mobile platforms often don't re-flow but just magnify on zoom.
SoftTalker 4y ago
I find tiling window managers help with big monitors. Windows still feel "maximized" but don't take up the whole screen.
mattl 4y ago
I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.
- cantSpellSober 4y ago
  If you try playing a game or movie fullscreen you'll understand
  - mattl 4y ago
    I don’t like to watch videos on the computer. The only time I have anything full screen is on a secondary monitor. I think it’s more of a Windows thing too. I don’t see much maximized stuff on Mac OS X.
    - cantSpellSober 4y ago
      Nope, OSX actually has fullscreen built into Finder (View > Enter Full Screen). Great for all kinds of apps; media, code, and (gasp) reading text (that has been styled by someone who knows what they're doing)! > full screen is on a secondary monitor Bizarre habit of yours! Personally, I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.
      - wlonkly 4y ago
        Finder is MacOS's file manager. It's true that MacOS offers full screen mode and lots of apps take advantage of it, but those other apps have nothing to do with Finder.
      - mattl 4y ago
        The other day I installed Microsoft Teams on my Mac. It opened with full screen or maximized window (I forget which) and it was horrible.
        cantSpellSober 4y ago
        Cool. Which full screen apps do you use on a "secondary monitor?" Personally, I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.

croes 4y ago

So you are saying the user should adapt to the style and not the content to the user.

kbenson 4y ago
Concessions can and be made on both sides, and expecting to be use ever larger and wider screens and expecting to still be able to maxi my ise windows is reaching an inflection point where it makes less and less sense, so docking point from a design which doesn't cater to poor habits is sort of silly. But what I was actually saying is less to do with the design in question and was more about people letting habits continue past the point of them being useful and sometimes well past the point of being harmful. What spurred my statement could have had nothing to do with some new design (and this isn't the first time I've stated it). Another way to look at it is that I can and have made this statement in isolation to design, in a discussion that was more about maximizing windows in the general case. Linking it too closely to the design in question would be to miss a lot of the point I was trying to make.

cantSpellSober 4y ago

That's a really tired take, developer-centricity instead of user-. Line length too long in the current container width? Divide the text into columns.

kbenson 4y ago
> developer-centricity instead of user Hardly. The user centric take is mobile, is the majority of all website traffic and I'm not even addressing at all. What I'm doing is making a case that desktop users actually make better use of their monitors that have gotten larger over time, and not just maximizes windows, and for developers to not assume everyone else maximizes windows. Most people browse using a mobile device now, so really this is about the dwindling few left that have a personal desktop computer they use. That's gamers, professionals and office workers. I think most of those have already learnt this lesson, that when you need to have multiple programs opened at once, maximizing one isn't super effective. > Line length too long in the current container width? Divide the text into columns. Or just maximize for no reason and have room for other windows if you want, or zoom the content, whichever makes the most sense for your current situation. Requiring someone design their site around being able to dynamically expand to multiple columns, and figure out how to make that work well with what may be side menus and any number of other design choices all because a minority (probably a minority of a minority) set of users wants to maximize to their own detriment seems kind of ridiculous. People know how to zoom. They do it all the time on sites that are legitimately hard to read or when they are having problems (if I happen to be without my glasses I zoom the shit out of sites). The only people I hear complaining about this are developers who expect maximizing to continue to have the same benefit it did a decade or two ago even though everything else has changes, which is why I think it's rich that this is being called developer centric.
- cantSpellSober 4y ago
  > The user centric take is mobile Mobile-first, but supporting wide displays too. Optimize for line length, break into columns in wide containers. Don't "blame" your users for maximizing windows or prescribe an optimal viewport width. (thanks for discussing)

Dylan16807 4y ago

Half a 1080p monitor is still 960 pixels wide.

kbenson 4y ago
So zoom a little if it's a problem? It's a few clicks, or holding a keyboard button and scrolling in most browsers. If it's still easily readable without zooming, congratulations, you've found a site that is easy to have open along side other things. In the meantime, I bet it works well for mobile, which is likely the majority of traffic they'll see, and is often harder to zoom effectively and still retain an effective overall readability experience, since mobile platforms often don't re-flow but just magnify on zoom.

SoftTalker 4y ago

I find tiling window managers help with big monitors. Windows still feel "maximized" but don't take up the whole screen.

mattl 4y ago

I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.

cantSpellSober 4y ago
If you try playing a game or movie fullscreen you'll understand
- mattl 4y ago
  I don’t like to watch videos on the computer. The only time I have anything full screen is on a secondary monitor. I think it’s more of a Windows thing too. I don’t see much maximized stuff on Mac OS X.
  - cantSpellSober 4y ago
    Nope, OSX actually has fullscreen built into Finder (View > Enter Full Screen). Great for all kinds of apps; media, code, and (gasp) reading text (that has been styled by someone who knows what they're doing)! > full screen is on a secondary monitor Bizarre habit of yours! Personally, I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.
    - wlonkly 4y ago
      Finder is MacOS's file manager. It's true that MacOS offers full screen mode and lots of apps take advantage of it, but those other apps have nothing to do with Finder.
    - mattl 4y ago
      The other day I installed Microsoft Teams on my Mac. It opened with full screen or maximized window (I forget which) and it was horrible.
      - cantSpellSober 4y ago
        Cool. Which full screen apps do you use on a "secondary monitor?" Personally, I can’t understand maximized windows on desktop at all.