3 ms·

> But the lock-in is there regardless of whether they intended it or not. Are you familiar with these systems at all? You can't lock someone into an inverter b

> But the lock-in is there regardless of whether they intended it or not. Are you familiar with these systems at all? You can't lock someone into an inverter brand. If you don't like your current inverter, you just buy a new one and plug it into your system. > If they go out of business in 5 or 10 years, and your system stops working, you are screwed. I work in the industry. I can assure you that won't happen. These are not fly by night VC funded IOT companies selling $100 trinkets. The industry went through a rough patch ~5 years ago, a fair number of restructuring. Literally zero incidents where products were EOL'ed due to remote servers turning off. There are a number of reasons for this, I can go into more detail if you really want me to. But the gist of it is that these are revenue generating assets many of which have large financial institutions holding the bag. They have the leverage to make sure that these types of systems never turn off.

outworlder 4y ago
> You can't lock someone into an inverter brand Challenge accepted. Just sell a fully integrated system that refuses to do anything if the incorrect inverter is connected.
- qqqwerty 4y ago
  You can't DRM a solar panel. But if you want to devote your life to trying, I am not going to stop you. EDIT: And the more I think about, it is very unlikely that you could do the same to an inverter. You could certainly brick the control electronics, but the power electronics, the stuff that matters, it would be difficult. So snipping a few wires and swapping out some boards is probably sufficient. How about this, if anyone on this thread ever has their inverter remotely shut off because a company goes out of business, I will personally volunteer to develop a work around.
Hizonner 4y ago
> Are you familiar with these systems at all? You can't lock someone into an inverter brand. Unless everything speaks standard protocols and can easily be swapped to a different control and monitoring system (including one the owner runs locally if they want to do that), you can lock somebody into a subscription, on pain of having to replace an expensive durable asset that should otherwise last a LONG time and requires expensive skilled labor to swap out. And, without having read the ToS, I have a suspicion that you can also Alter the Deal under which that service is provided. > The industry went through a rough patch ~5 years ago, a fair number of restructuring. Literally zero incidents where products were EOL'ed due to remote servers turning off. 5 years ago, how many installed, Internet-connected systems were already 5 or 10 years old? How many different backends were supporting them? > But the gist of it is that these are revenue generating assets many of which have large financial institutions holding the bag. I accept that that reduces the chance of them being turned off. I would in fact be interested in hearing more about this revenue model. Of course, you now have me worried about the risks of them being remotely meddled with in various ways to suit the interests of whoever is providing this revenue. It's usually a bad sign if you buy something, but somebody else thinks it's still their "revenue generating asset".
- qqqwerty 4y ago
  > Unless everything speaks standard protocols and can easily be swapped to a different control and monitoring system We are taking about AC and DC current. That is about as "standard" as it gets. Your panels produce DC current. Your inverter takes that current and converts it to AC. The AC current is then sent to your main panel. The inverter is a fraction of the cost of the entire system, and most inverters only last 8-10 years, so they are expected to be replaced a few times through out the lifetime of the system. It would be physically impossible to implement some sort of inverter level DRM that could then bind up your entire system. You could brick the inverter itself, but for reasons explained below that would be very unlikely. > I accept that that reduces the chance of them being turned off. I would in fact be interested in hearing more about this revenue model. I don't know the exact number, but the overwhelming majority of residential solar systems are financed, either through a lease or a PPA. The banks that offer this financing maintain lists of "bankable" equipment and in order to be eligible for financing the equipment used in a project needs to be on one of these lists. And to get on these lists manufacturers need to meet a number of requirements, one of which is that there are guarantees that in the event of a bankruptcy the equipment will continue to operate and that warranties will still be honored. > Of course, you now have me worried about the risks of them being remotely meddled with in various ways to suit the interests of whoever is providing this revenue That is a fair concern. But if you enter into a financial contract with an entity that has the ability and standing to shut off your solar system for whatever reason, then that is your own problem, and somewhat tangential from the topic in this thread. And FWIW, in practice it very rarely makes sense to turn these things off. It costs too much to repossess them, and the homeowner will just end up putting more money towards the utility bill to keep the lights on. Instead they just keep the electrons flowing and hope their collections department can sort things out.

outworlder 4y ago

> You can't lock someone into an inverter brand Challenge accepted. Just sell a fully integrated system that refuses to do anything if the incorrect inverter is connected.

qqqwerty 4y ago
You can't DRM a solar panel. But if you want to devote your life to trying, I am not going to stop you. EDIT: And the more I think about, it is very unlikely that you could do the same to an inverter. You could certainly brick the control electronics, but the power electronics, the stuff that matters, it would be difficult. So snipping a few wires and swapping out some boards is probably sufficient. How about this, if anyone on this thread ever has their inverter remotely shut off because a company goes out of business, I will personally volunteer to develop a work around.

Hizonner 4y ago

> Are you familiar with these systems at all? You can't lock someone into an inverter brand. Unless everything speaks standard protocols and can easily be swapped to a different control and monitoring system (including one the owner runs locally if they want to do that), you can lock somebody into a subscription, on pain of having to replace an expensive durable asset that should otherwise last a LONG time and requires expensive skilled labor to swap out. And, without having read the ToS, I have a suspicion that you can also Alter the Deal under which that service is provided. > The industry went through a rough patch ~5 years ago, a fair number of restructuring. Literally zero incidents where products were EOL'ed due to remote servers turning off. 5 years ago, how many installed, Internet-connected systems were already 5 or 10 years old? How many different backends were supporting them? > But the gist of it is that these are revenue generating assets many of which have large financial institutions holding the bag. I accept that that reduces the chance of them being turned off. I would in fact be interested in hearing more about this revenue model. Of course, you now have me worried about the risks of them being remotely meddled with in various ways to suit the interests of whoever is providing this revenue. It's usually a bad sign if you buy something, but somebody else thinks it's still their "revenue generating asset".

qqqwerty 4y ago
> Unless everything speaks standard protocols and can easily be swapped to a different control and monitoring system We are taking about AC and DC current. That is about as "standard" as it gets. Your panels produce DC current. Your inverter takes that current and converts it to AC. The AC current is then sent to your main panel. The inverter is a fraction of the cost of the entire system, and most inverters only last 8-10 years, so they are expected to be replaced a few times through out the lifetime of the system. It would be physically impossible to implement some sort of inverter level DRM that could then bind up your entire system. You could brick the inverter itself, but for reasons explained below that would be very unlikely. > I accept that that reduces the chance of them being turned off. I would in fact be interested in hearing more about this revenue model. I don't know the exact number, but the overwhelming majority of residential solar systems are financed, either through a lease or a PPA. The banks that offer this financing maintain lists of "bankable" equipment and in order to be eligible for financing the equipment used in a project needs to be on one of these lists. And to get on these lists manufacturers need to meet a number of requirements, one of which is that there are guarantees that in the event of a bankruptcy the equipment will continue to operate and that warranties will still be honored. > Of course, you now have me worried about the risks of them being remotely meddled with in various ways to suit the interests of whoever is providing this revenue That is a fair concern. But if you enter into a financial contract with an entity that has the ability and standing to shut off your solar system for whatever reason, then that is your own problem, and somewhat tangential from the topic in this thread. And FWIW, in practice it very rarely makes sense to turn these things off. It costs too much to repossess them, and the homeowner will just end up putting more money towards the utility bill to keep the lights on. Instead they just keep the electrons flowing and hope their collections department can sort things out.