9 ms·

As someone who operated on the "adult internet" with payment processors and related infrastructure without being 18, I still carry forward the constant fear tha

by Shank 4y ago

As someone who operated on the "adult internet" with payment processors and related infrastructure without being 18, I still carry forward the constant fear that I'll be banned for retroactive Terms of Service violations incurred when I was a kid. It really sucks when it's services like AdSense because you're just screwed forever. I really really wish the internet was more supportive of "early hackers" who want to experiment. I get that there are tons of implications around contract law and child labor here, but there really needs to be an escape hatch if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done. Ostensibly, this is a young creator getting discouraged from their hobby, even though they've shown that they're good enough at it to deserve some form of compensation. This'll leave a bad taste in the kid's mouth for a long time.

Swizec 4y ago
> if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done My mom definitely wouldn’t be able to provide informed consent to half the stuff I was doing on the internet in high school and middle school even if I told her about it. She worried, I’m sure, but between speaking next to zero english and the novelty of www in the early 00’s, best she could do was threaten to take the computer if things got too weird.
- Semaphor 4y ago
  When I was a kid, i hosted WC3 beta cracks, patches, and servers on our ISP Webspace. Blizzard had some call our ISP, who called my dad, who told me to stop doing whatever it was that got people mad It feel like nowadays, it'd have resulted in a lawsuit, but at least threatening lawyer letters. edit: Archive.org link to the site. With a visitor counter and cringy teeny-sounding English ;) https://web.archive.org/web/20020522193227/http://home.foni.net/~wagners/ https://web.archive.org/web/20020522193227/http://home.foni.... For anyone interested, this was strictly beta, by a group of crackers who said they’d stop releasing anything as soon as the game was done. I was one of 4 or 5 people who’d get advanced notification in IRC to upload the newest patches etc. so there’d be multiple mirrors available for the announcement.
  - jotm 4y ago
    Nothing beats "Stop using Mandrake, this is illegal software and we will get sued!" On that note, my sister can't wrap her head around the fact that people can have multiple bank accounts and many of them are completely free. She looks at my collection of cards and says "omg the Finanzamt will get you!". Just wait until they get you for making money off TikTok videos lol
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Nowadays they would have tried to get you taken from your parents and sent to an Activision owned private prison facility to stamp out Blizzard game stickers.
ars 4y ago
The escape hatch is the parent opening the account in their own name. Companies don't have a choice here: Someone under 18 can not enter into a contract, there's nothing really they can do.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  They can, but they can also renege on most of them. Not sure if you can do that after you turn 18 though.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- lovingCranberry 4y ago
  Hmm, in Germany children and teens can still enter contracts, as long as they are able to pay it with their monthly pocket money. Every single thing you buy here in a supermarket is also an implicit contract (Kaufvertrag). So, you could theoretically rent servers and buy ad space on Adsense as long your pocket money covers it. On the other hand: this is a liability for Google and $provider -- as most of them are post-pay. If a teen ever decides to spawn an A1000 instance with 36 cores and cannot pay, the contract is void and Google has no entitlement for compensation. Pre-paid stuff like a small instance on vultr.com should work fine, though.
  - jotm 4y ago
    Postpaid was my favorite when I was a poor 16 year old. I couldn't believe you can rent 12 core servers for 3 months and not pay for it! Yes, I know it was illegal lol
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    How would the counter party know how much pocket money any given child has?
    - usr1106 4y ago
MattGaiser 4y ago
> but there really needs to be an escape hatch if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done. Wouldn’t this be the parents signing up for the account?
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  There is a difference between a parent's account and a child's account that was agreed to by a parent. One says "I am doing this", the other "my child is doing this and I'm allowing it".
that_guy_iain 4y ago
> As someone who operated on the "adult internet" with payment processors and related infrastructure without being 18, I still carry forward the constant fear that I'll be banned for retroactive Terms of Service violations incurred when I was a kid. It really sucks when it's services like AdSense because you're just screwed forever. The thing is, most parents wouldn't even think "Oh, you'll need to do that in my name." when their kid says they want to build some website and put ads on it. They just think "Oh that's cute, we'll figure out the money stuff later."
- jotm 4y ago
  Mine thought "wtf is he on about" :D
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  > The thing is, most parents wouldn't even think "Oh, you'll need to do that in my name." I certainly wouldn't think that, as it sounds like horrible idea. Your teenage child posts one picture of themselves in a compromising situation, and suddenly you're lost all access to your accounts for the rest of your life. I'll pass, thanks. And, yes, I get the "educate your children" thing.. but children do stupid things. Heck, an adult lost their gmail account forever because the sent a picture of their child to their doctor; one the doctor asked for.
  - f1shy 4y ago
    Or let me put it this way: if I would be judged with that severity for all stupid things I did, I would be in guantanamo.
    - sophacles 4y ago
      I suspect that there's enough of us that it would be more economical to relocate Australians and revert the continent to a penal colony.
      - that_guy_iain 4y ago
narag 4y ago
I get that there are tons of implications around contract law and child labor here, but there really needs to be an escape hatch if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done. While it's happening, it can be done using the parent's identity. After that, the same logic that prevents a minor to commit, because limited responsability, should be applied to avoid perpetual consequences. But as usual, companies apply draconian measures that governments can't. Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers...
- nickff 4y ago
  >” But as usual, companies apply draconian measures that governments can't. Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers..” Technically true, but the government often uses regulations and investigatory powers to compel private corporations to enact draconian regulations that the government cannot enact on its own. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  > Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers... I don't see how that's relevant here. Can a minor have an electricity contract?
nalllar 4y ago
I never told my parents anything and they woke up one day to a legal notice from Disney fedexed across the atlantic. Fun times!
rrwo 4y ago
Companies cannot legally provide a lot of services to minors. For other services there is enough bureaucracy that it's easier to avoid by not providing the service to minors. It's also easier to ban accounts for life when they lie about who they are. You don't run the risk of aiding fraud and being fined if you make a mistake, because you banned them. There was nothing preventing the kid from creatibg content. It was in using Ad Sense to make money off it.
- Method-X 4y ago
  Sure but that doesn’t mean they should be banned for life. If you commit a crime as a minor does that follow you around for the rest of your life? At least where I live, it doesn’t.
  - ska 4y ago
    > doesn’t mean they should be banned for life. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't though, either. I can't imagine any other way around this that doesn't amount to forcing a company to provide a service to someone they have rational reasons to not trust, which seems like globally at least it could cause more problems than it solves. To be clear I'm not saying we shouldn't encourage a company to re-consider when the person is older, but it's hard to see how they should be forced to.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      > forcing a company to provide a service Nothing wrong with that. Just do it. Force them to provide service to the kids they banned for life due to frivolous violations of contracts nobody really reads anyway. > it's hard to see how they should be forced to It's really easy actually. Someone getting permabanned from a service for the unforgivable offense of being a child is completely out of proportion. We already force them to provide service to the disabled and impaired without discrimination. It's okay to do it. Corporations don't have feelings. Nobody really cares how hard life is for the hundred billion dollar corporation either.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
You can just use a friend's account ? There is no way of banning someone really. Growing up with the internet it always felt these companies were playing with fire. I can't explain it. The 90s were a wild time I guess. That generation knows about using fake names and addresses. I guess I have never seen these businesses as proper businesses like the local mom and pop shop whose owner you know and respect and who respects you. But google and other such companies always feel like they are trying to use you and you are trying to use them.
- BudaDude 4y ago
  Forgive me if I am incorrect, its been years since I have used it, but don't you need to link a bank account and social security number to receive money from Adsense?
  - tomca32 4y ago
    You could just get a check mailed. I lived in Europe then and got a check that I cashed at my bank. I didn’t have a SSN, so but maybe US citizens had to provide it. Granted this was 15 or so years ago so things might have changed since then.
    - salawat 4y ago
      Nowadays BSA requires KYC. Any type of money transmission requires collection of enough PII to do an OFAC check to ensure you aren't facilitating activity to a sanctioned individual. Banks/clearinghouses are usually on the line for doing this for their clients.
  - aliqot 4y ago
    For a while they just mailed paper checks on any month when the 100 USD minimum threshold was passed. If they didn't get cashed they'd send threatening letters about 'escheatment'. I think that stopped at some point about 10yrs ago. Not sure about what happened after.
jollyllama 4y ago
I remember registering with an non-adult affiliate marketing company as a kid. I'm pretty sure they knew I was young and they just didn't care. Either they used that as an excuse to rip me off or none of my leads ever converted lol
reaperducer 4y ago
Wouldn't it be interesting if violating Google's TOS meant that you also couldn't view AdSense ads. Suddenly: "Hey, Google! I'm three years old, better ban me!"
stjohnswarts 4y ago
The idea that they don't have a timeout feature rather than a "banned for life" antifeature explains all you need to know about these megacorps that are mostly the only game in town for what they do. This is why Congress (and other equivalents) need to kick them in the balls every so often to let them know who is actually in charge.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  Congress is working for them.
- shp0ngle 4y ago
  The locking out seems more like a bug than a feature, from what the “platform expert” is saying
f1shy 4y ago
> I get that there are tons of implications around contract law and child labor here, but there really needs to be an escape hatch Specially, if you the intend is to "protect" children, this is not helpful.
- Shank 4y ago
  > Specially, if you the intend is to "protect" children, this is not helpful. No, rather, current US law means that technically minors can't enter into contracts until age 16, and many provisions aren't enforceable until 18 or local age-of-majority. Broadly, because of child labor laws, it's not possible for actual children to enter into work/employee relationships or sign contracts legally, just period. This is supposed to stop exploitation of children (sign this stupid contract and now you're encumbered without being fully cognizant of what that means or entails).
judge2020 4y ago
I'm in the opposite boat: I told paypal I was under 18 when I was under 18, called them, they kept my account locked, but as soon as I turned 18 I was unblocked and could used my original account. And I made the account when I was 11.
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  At what age did you call to report that you broke the TOS by certifying you were over 18? PayPal really kept a dormant account with an underaged persons PII for 7 years? Interesting.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    Tried to verify my age at 16, which locked the account. Called them and they said they can't do anything until i'm 18. After 6 months I was able to withdraw the funds into a bank account I owned. Only at 18 was I able to log in and redo KYC/driver's license upload.
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    It's possible that when they signed up/created the account, it wasn't required. Paypal was founded before there were any laws about age for signing up for things online, and minors are legally allowed bank accounts that their guardians don't have access to. (Or at least they used to be allowed: I had one at 14 in 2002).
- oerpli 4y ago
  I made a PayPal account when I was 17 and used it happily for 12 years. In 2021 (being almost 30 years old) I got a payment from US (I'm in the EU) and had to provide ID to PayPal. They figured out that I made my account a few months before my 18th birthday and permanently locked my account. It seems all of this is arbitrary more or less random bullshit.
  - pm3003 4y ago
    What if you filed a legal request for all the information Paypal has on you, then for deletion of that information? This is permitted by EU law, is possible in most EU countries and should fix the permaban issues for most cases.
RajT88 4y ago
The old apocryphal tale comes to mind of the CD clubs. -Everyone knew a person back in the day who signed up for the CD clubs promising dollar CD's, or 10 for a dollar. Whatever the various deals were. -With those deals came a commitment to buy 10 - 20 more albums at full price. -You sign a contract agreeing to this. -So the friend-of-a-friend signed it while under 18 and a minor. -They then tell the CD club that the agreement is null and void on account of them not being legally able to sign a contract, and after getting their 10 CD's for a dollar or whatever, to cancel their account.
- bombcar 4y ago
  In my era they didn't even have much of a requirement to buy that many, it was like signup and get 10 or 20 CDs if you buy two, and then they'd keep sending you CDs that you had to say "return" on for a year or so.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by Shank 4y ago

Swizec 4y ago

> if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done My mom definitely wouldn’t be able to provide informed consent to half the stuff I was doing on the internet in high school and middle school even if I told her about it. She worried, I’m sure, but between speaking next to zero english and the novelty of www in the early 00’s, best she could do was threaten to take the computer if things got too weird.

Semaphor 4y ago
When I was a kid, i hosted WC3 beta cracks, patches, and servers on our ISP Webspace. Blizzard had some call our ISP, who called my dad, who told me to stop doing whatever it was that got people mad It feel like nowadays, it'd have resulted in a lawsuit, but at least threatening lawyer letters. edit: Archive.org link to the site. With a visitor counter and cringy teeny-sounding English ;) https://web.archive.org/web/20020522193227/http://home.foni.net/~wagners/ https://web.archive.org/web/20020522193227/http://home.foni.... For anyone interested, this was strictly beta, by a group of crackers who said they’d stop releasing anything as soon as the game was done. I was one of 4 or 5 people who’d get advanced notification in IRC to upload the newest patches etc. so there’d be multiple mirrors available for the announcement.
- jotm 4y ago
  Nothing beats "Stop using Mandrake, this is illegal software and we will get sued!" On that note, my sister can't wrap her head around the fact that people can have multiple bank accounts and many of them are completely free. She looks at my collection of cards and says "omg the Finanzamt will get you!". Just wait until they get you for making money off TikTok videos lol
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  Nowadays they would have tried to get you taken from your parents and sent to an Activision owned private prison facility to stamp out Blizzard game stickers.

ars 4y ago

The escape hatch is the parent opening the account in their own name. Companies don't have a choice here: Someone under 18 can not enter into a contract, there's nothing really they can do.

Scoundreller 4y ago
They can, but they can also renege on most of them. Not sure if you can do that after you turn 18 though.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
lovingCranberry 4y ago
Hmm, in Germany children and teens can still enter contracts, as long as they are able to pay it with their monthly pocket money. Every single thing you buy here in a supermarket is also an implicit contract (Kaufvertrag). So, you could theoretically rent servers and buy ad space on Adsense as long your pocket money covers it. On the other hand: this is a liability for Google and $provider -- as most of them are post-pay. If a teen ever decides to spawn an A1000 instance with 36 cores and cannot pay, the contract is void and Google has no entitlement for compensation. Pre-paid stuff like a small instance on vultr.com should work fine, though.
- jotm 4y ago
  Postpaid was my favorite when I was a poor 16 year old. I couldn't believe you can rent 12 core servers for 3 months and not pay for it! Yes, I know it was illegal lol
- HWR_14 4y ago
  How would the counter party know how much pocket money any given child has?
  - usr1106 4y ago

MattGaiser 4y ago

> but there really needs to be an escape hatch if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done. Wouldn’t this be the parents signing up for the account?

RHSeeger 4y ago
There is a difference between a parent's account and a child's account that was agreed to by a parent. One says "I am doing this", the other "my child is doing this and I'm allowing it".

that_guy_iain 4y ago

> As someone who operated on the "adult internet" with payment processors and related infrastructure without being 18, I still carry forward the constant fear that I'll be banned for retroactive Terms of Service violations incurred when I was a kid. It really sucks when it's services like AdSense because you're just screwed forever. The thing is, most parents wouldn't even think "Oh, you'll need to do that in my name." when their kid says they want to build some website and put ads on it. They just think "Oh that's cute, we'll figure out the money stuff later."

jotm 4y ago
Mine thought "wtf is he on about" :D
RHSeeger 4y ago
> The thing is, most parents wouldn't even think "Oh, you'll need to do that in my name." I certainly wouldn't think that, as it sounds like horrible idea. Your teenage child posts one picture of themselves in a compromising situation, and suddenly you're lost all access to your accounts for the rest of your life. I'll pass, thanks. And, yes, I get the "educate your children" thing.. but children do stupid things. Heck, an adult lost their gmail account forever because the sent a picture of their child to their doctor; one the doctor asked for.
- f1shy 4y ago
  Or let me put it this way: if I would be judged with that severity for all stupid things I did, I would be in guantanamo.
  - sophacles 4y ago
    I suspect that there's enough of us that it would be more economical to relocate Australians and revert the continent to a penal colony.
    - that_guy_iain 4y ago

narag 4y ago

I get that there are tons of implications around contract law and child labor here, but there really needs to be an escape hatch if a parent agrees to whatever activity is being done. While it's happening, it can be done using the parent's identity. After that, the same logic that prevents a minor to commit, because limited responsability, should be applied to avoid perpetual consequences. But as usual, companies apply draconian measures that governments can't. Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers...

nickff 4y ago
>” But as usual, companies apply draconian measures that governments can't. Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers..” Technically true, but the government often uses regulations and investigatory powers to compel private corporations to enact draconian regulations that the government cannot enact on its own. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
amadeuspagel 4y ago
> Some day we'll finally get that regulation that draws a line between utilities and publishers... I don't see how that's relevant here. Can a minor have an electricity contract?

nalllar 4y ago

I never told my parents anything and they woke up one day to a legal notice from Disney fedexed across the atlantic. Fun times!

rrwo 4y ago

Companies cannot legally provide a lot of services to minors. For other services there is enough bureaucracy that it's easier to avoid by not providing the service to minors. It's also easier to ban accounts for life when they lie about who they are. You don't run the risk of aiding fraud and being fined if you make a mistake, because you banned them. There was nothing preventing the kid from creatibg content. It was in using Ad Sense to make money off it.

Method-X 4y ago
Sure but that doesn’t mean they should be banned for life. If you commit a crime as a minor does that follow you around for the rest of your life? At least where I live, it doesn’t.
- ska 4y ago
  > doesn’t mean they should be banned for life. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't though, either. I can't imagine any other way around this that doesn't amount to forcing a company to provide a service to someone they have rational reasons to not trust, which seems like globally at least it could cause more problems than it solves. To be clear I'm not saying we shouldn't encourage a company to re-consider when the person is older, but it's hard to see how they should be forced to.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    > forcing a company to provide a service Nothing wrong with that. Just do it. Force them to provide service to the kids they banned for life due to frivolous violations of contracts nobody really reads anyway. > it's hard to see how they should be forced to It's really easy actually. Someone getting permabanned from a service for the unforgivable offense of being a child is completely out of proportion. We already force them to provide service to the disabled and impaired without discrimination. It's okay to do it. Corporations don't have feelings. Nobody really cares how hard life is for the hundred billion dollar corporation either.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

You can just use a friend's account ? There is no way of banning someone really. Growing up with the internet it always felt these companies were playing with fire. I can't explain it. The 90s were a wild time I guess. That generation knows about using fake names and addresses. I guess I have never seen these businesses as proper businesses like the local mom and pop shop whose owner you know and respect and who respects you. But google and other such companies always feel like they are trying to use you and you are trying to use them.

BudaDude 4y ago
Forgive me if I am incorrect, its been years since I have used it, but don't you need to link a bank account and social security number to receive money from Adsense?
- tomca32 4y ago
  You could just get a check mailed. I lived in Europe then and got a check that I cashed at my bank. I didn’t have a SSN, so but maybe US citizens had to provide it. Granted this was 15 or so years ago so things might have changed since then.
  - salawat 4y ago
    Nowadays BSA requires KYC. Any type of money transmission requires collection of enough PII to do an OFAC check to ensure you aren't facilitating activity to a sanctioned individual. Banks/clearinghouses are usually on the line for doing this for their clients.
- aliqot 4y ago
  For a while they just mailed paper checks on any month when the 100 USD minimum threshold was passed. If they didn't get cashed they'd send threatening letters about 'escheatment'. I think that stopped at some point about 10yrs ago. Not sure about what happened after.

jollyllama 4y ago

I remember registering with an non-adult affiliate marketing company as a kid. I'm pretty sure they knew I was young and they just didn't care. Either they used that as an excuse to rip me off or none of my leads ever converted lol

reaperducer 4y ago

Wouldn't it be interesting if violating Google's TOS meant that you also couldn't view AdSense ads. Suddenly: "Hey, Google! I'm three years old, better ban me!"

stjohnswarts 4y ago

The idea that they don't have a timeout feature rather than a "banned for life" antifeature explains all you need to know about these megacorps that are mostly the only game in town for what they do. This is why Congress (and other equivalents) need to kick them in the balls every so often to let them know who is actually in charge.

lamontcg 4y ago
Congress is working for them.
shp0ngle 4y ago
The locking out seems more like a bug than a feature, from what the “platform expert” is saying

f1shy 4y ago

> I get that there are tons of implications around contract law and child labor here, but there really needs to be an escape hatch Specially, if you the intend is to "protect" children, this is not helpful.

Shank 4y ago
> Specially, if you the intend is to "protect" children, this is not helpful. No, rather, current US law means that technically minors can't enter into contracts until age 16, and many provisions aren't enforceable until 18 or local age-of-majority. Broadly, because of child labor laws, it's not possible for actual children to enter into work/employee relationships or sign contracts legally, just period. This is supposed to stop exploitation of children (sign this stupid contract and now you're encumbered without being fully cognizant of what that means or entails).

judge2020 4y ago

I'm in the opposite boat: I told paypal I was under 18 when I was under 18, called them, they kept my account locked, but as soon as I turned 18 I was unblocked and could used my original account. And I made the account when I was 11.

factsarelolz 4y ago
At what age did you call to report that you broke the TOS by certifying you were over 18? PayPal really kept a dormant account with an underaged persons PII for 7 years? Interesting.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Tried to verify my age at 16, which locked the account. Called them and they said they can't do anything until i'm 18. After 6 months I was able to withdraw the funds into a bank account I owned. Only at 18 was I able to log in and redo KYC/driver's license upload.
- Mezzie 4y ago
  It's possible that when they signed up/created the account, it wasn't required. Paypal was founded before there were any laws about age for signing up for things online, and minors are legally allowed bank accounts that their guardians don't have access to. (Or at least they used to be allowed: I had one at 14 in 2002).
oerpli 4y ago
I made a PayPal account when I was 17 and used it happily for 12 years. In 2021 (being almost 30 years old) I got a payment from US (I'm in the EU) and had to provide ID to PayPal. They figured out that I made my account a few months before my 18th birthday and permanently locked my account. It seems all of this is arbitrary more or less random bullshit.
- pm3003 4y ago
  What if you filed a legal request for all the information Paypal has on you, then for deletion of that information? This is permitted by EU law, is possible in most EU countries and should fix the permaban issues for most cases.

RajT88 4y ago

The old apocryphal tale comes to mind of the CD clubs. -Everyone knew a person back in the day who signed up for the CD clubs promising dollar CD's, or 10 for a dollar. Whatever the various deals were. -With those deals came a commitment to buy 10 - 20 more albums at full price. -You sign a contract agreeing to this. -So the friend-of-a-friend signed it while under 18 and a minor. -They then tell the CD club that the agreement is null and void on account of them not being legally able to sign a contract, and after getting their 10 CD's for a dollar or whatever, to cancel their account.

bombcar 4y ago
In my era they didn't even have much of a requirement to buy that many, it was like signup and get 10 or 20 CDs if you buy two, and then they'd keep sending you CDs that you had to say "return" on for a year or so.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]