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At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? People who have spent 6k hours in a casino, for example, would probably be happier if they could figure out w

At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? People who have spent 6k hours in a casino, for example, would probably be happier if they could figure out why they're doing it, and find a more productive way to address that need. Same might be true of someone who has spent 6k hours in a single video game. [I've spent 450 hours in Factorio, but stopped soon after my partner nick named it Divorcio.]

unity1001 4y ago
> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? Why should something that unstresses, revitalizes and inspires you should be an addition. With that logic, food is an addiction. Sleep. Rest. Even poetry and art.
- matwood 4y ago
  Like most things, the dose makes the poison. A little Red Dead is probably great, too much probably bad. Gambling, food, sleep all fall into similar U shaped curves.
  - elil17 4y ago
    Who are we to say how much is the right amount for this person? To play 6,000 hours of this game he must have a reason. Perhaps he's particularly passionate about it, perhaps there is someone in his life he loves to play it with.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mikepurvis 4y ago
      I think that argument works a lot better if we're talking about a consumption level in the 10-100s of hours, along the lines of average for this title and most others like it: https://howlongtobeat.com/game/27100 https://howlongtobeat.com/game/27100 6000 hours is multiple orders of magnitude beyond that point, so it feels like a point where it's a lot safer to reach for an absolute judgment that it really is "too much".
      - elil17 4y ago
        It's a multiplayer game
        mikepurvis 4y ago
        Fair, and I know that's a different ballgame if you're going to compare with Destiny 2 or WoW or League or something. But nonetheless, I think there's value in at least having some measure of calibration for what is reasonable and healthy.
        elil17 4y ago
        But you don't know his life. Why judge from afar? I'm not saying it's normal or recommendable for the average person. I'm just saying, we don't know.
- chuckSu 4y ago
sirsinsalot 4y ago
Would you say the same about a 6k hour investment coding a game? This "if it isn't productive it isn't worthwhile" attitude is toxic.
- Retric 4y ago
  Sometimes yes. Side projects can be toxic if they leave little time for anything outside of them and work. The old idea that “nobody on their deathbed wished they spent more time at work” can easily apply to your side hustle.
  - mikkergp 4y ago
    Your deathbed mindset is a pretty short time to have to endure to optimize your entire life around. Especially compared to the hundred or so years you have to live through.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Some people do spend 20+ years effectively on their death bed with little to comfort them but their regrets. Another way of looking at life is at 80 you can be of a sound mind but your body is only so healthy at that point. Yet a tiny fraction of people live another 40 years. I personally don’t think it’s worth heavily optimizing for those potential last 40 years. But, they should be part of long term planning at least as something that might happen.
    - haswell 4y ago
      The length of time enduring these thoughts/feelings is not the point. The point is that of the ways one chooses to spend those hundred or so years, people often find later in life that they wish they'd spent the time differently. They realize that they could have achieved much greater life satisfaction if they had. I don't believe in a literal hell, but someone once posited (sorry, cannot recall who at the moment) that hell is the "eternity" of thought that occurs as your consciousness fades away. Those thoughts you're thinking are the last thoughts you'll ever think. People don't want their last thoughts to be filled with regret. People want to die in peace. But the broader point isn't top optimize your life around the time you'll eventually spend on your deathbed - that's just where everyone ends up. The point is to optimize your life so that you are satisfied with life - something that is not limited to your dying hours.
redeeman 4y ago
12 work-days of a hobby and your partner labels it an addiction thats divorce worthy? sounds pretty terrible. I strongly suspect he/she is probably spending atleast as much time on his/her hobby.
- redeeman 4y ago
  couldnt edit, yes, meant work-weeks
- trimbo 4y ago
  I think you meant 12 work weeks
- yourusername 4y ago
  Closer to 12 work weeks.
- TheCapn 4y ago
  You can't really form any judgement without knowing more context. 450hrs over a year+? A couple months? Did the game interrupt important events or cause OP to neglect certain responsibilities?
  - krallja 4y ago
    > Did the game interrupt important events or cause OP to neglect certain responsibilities? It's Factorio, so, yes.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  How do you figure 450hrs is only 12 working days??? It’s already 18 actual days. After a normal work day, after all my daily chores are done, gone to the gym and other things to take care of myself, I have maybe 2-3 hrs of free time. If we’re generous and say 3 hrs, that’s 150 days straight of spending your free time on a game and not your partner.
dmix 4y ago
You can't measure an addiction just by total hours invested in something. That equals 2.4hrs/day, 16hrs/week since the game was released, which might be more indicative but still depends on the reset of their life obligations and what else they seek value from.
- cruano 4y ago
  Yeah but isn't that a single player game ? Even if it had 100+ hours of gameplay, you'd have to repeat that so many times to get to 6000 hours Very different from someone that plays video games a few hours every day
  - thefreeman 4y ago
    He mentions in a followup tweet (to someone recommending using Google Takeout to retrieve his save file) that he doesn't play story mode, so I assume there is a multiplayer mode.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    Clearly you haven't read the article. It specifically mentions they don't play story mode (single player).
  - williamscales 4y ago
    No, there is very much an online multiplayer side to the game
  - nvrspyx 4y ago
    The person is quoted in the article as saying they don't play story mode and that Google Takeout wouldn't work for transferring their game save to PC as a result. This means that they've been playing the online component, Red Dead Online.
    - branon 4y ago
ZoomerCretin 4y ago
Somehow I doubt your partner would say the same of you watching TV or using social media for 450 hours.
tshaddox 4y ago
> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When there are significant negative consequences.
FredPret 4y ago
I had the same with Factorio, only I actually did get divorced. I went through many attempts to quit - including deleting my Steam account. Eventually I set up the household to Mac & Linux only to help increase the friction. Along with a lifestyle overhaul - new hobbies, and actual sport played outside, non-gaming seems to stick. Gaming addiction is real and it can truly destroy a life.
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  Factorio is Linux native though.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    I can probably figure it out, but I use Linux for servers only. I’d have to jump through some hoops to get it running. The lifestyle changes I mentioned have displaced gaming in my dopamine system. I also never want to get sucked in again. That is my main defence.
    - gremlinsinc 4y ago
      On arch Linux: Yay steam .... Installing... Alt d Type steam Click or hit enter on app from dmenu. Done. Hardly something one figures out or learns to do, esp if they already use Linux.
    - kraig911 4y ago
      Just interested but could I get a list of those things you used? I don't want a divorce myself.
      - FredPret 4y ago
        Exercise is the main one for me. Pick something progressive and addictive, like weightlifting or distance running. You’ll get hooked but there’s a built-in limit to how much you can do per day and per week. I try to get out of the house on various adventures or even regular walks at every opportunity now. Also I took up some hobbies like reading and photography. Some people golf fanatically and they seem to be better off for it. At first, I unconsciously replaced game time with social media time, doomscrolling, news. Don’t do this. Be conscious and deliberate about subbing in quality leisure time. The main thing is to treat games like a serious addiction if it is one, and replace it with a full and rich life. This is obviously not easy, but that is, in part, the point.
vintermann 4y ago
But you know, you got to consider, is this an inherently disgusting, wasteful thing that you ought to be ashamed of? Or do you just feel that way because of other people think it is?
somenameforme 4y ago
That's pretty easy to define. An addiction is something that you want or feel you should quit or tone down, but don't have the self discipline to do. A hobby, even an obsession, is not an addiction. And similarly it's entirely possible to become addicted to "productive" things, like work. The Bezos-like individuals who have no lack of money yet still work relentlessly, even to the detriment of the other factors in their life, are a dime a dozen. And a person of his sort saying he wishes he could work less hard would be seen as little other than a humble brag, even if he may mean it absolute and desperate earnestness. And getting slightly philosophical for a moment, I doubt there's anybody on their deathbed that would regret spending as much time as they did doing the things that they enjoyed, unless those things started to themselves cause even greater problems. And a playtime alone does nothing to inform one as to the chances of the latter. For some, 5 hours a week might start causing problems - for others 60 hours a week would be perfectly fine.
- antasvara 4y ago
  I think that's not the best definition of an addiction. Plenty of people that smoke aren't actively trying to quit or even want to quit, but they are very clearly addicted to nicotine. It's the reason people have interventions: for a person addicted to something, it can be hard to actually admit that they're addicted to something. That should qualify, even if that person won't admit that their behavior has become a problem.
cranium 4y ago
I like this rule of thumb to know if a behavior can be a psychiatric disorder: "when it interferes with normal functioning". It's purposely vague and subject to interpretation but it's a good first filter. For an addiction X, you can ask questions like: * do I think about X most of the time * would I choose X over family/friends/health * when engaged in another activity, do I want it to be done quickly so I can go back to X * do I feel distressed when I can't do X * ... Looking years ago, my younger self has been addicted to WoW before realizing how little joy the game sparked when playing. And one day I just did not launch it and I was done with it. I certainly feel lucky to have been bored by the game before it did too much damages. Other additions are not so kind on the health/mind/wallet.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
Why is it your place to make that judgement?
charcircuit 4y ago
Have you considered that some people would prefer to spend more time in the digital world than the real world? Why do you think there is so much investment into the metaverse?
teawrecks 4y ago
> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When it negatively affects your life outside of that activity. We're also talking about someone who is apparently a steamer or YouTuber.
bawolff 4y ago
> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When you are doing something society thinks is uncool. If someone spent that amount of time training to say run a marathon, nobody would blink an eye. Probably they would get praise for being dedicated.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  This is the right answer. Reminds me of the poor vs rich double standard meme. Poor guy getting drunk == "a bum"; rich guy getting drunk == "just having fun". Poor guy gets money from the govt. == "a leech"; rich guy gets money from the govt. == "a stimulus for the economy".
  - anthony_d 4y ago
    > Poor guy gets money from the govt. == "a leech"; rich guy gets money from the govt. == "a stimulus for the economy". Huh? That's the exact opposite of everything I've seen. Rich people are called leeches just for being rich, let alone receiving money from the government.
emeril 4y ago
LOL @ Divorcio
thih9 4y ago
> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? Not sure about genuine addiction, but you can have an unhealthy relation with your hobby, e.g. when it becomes a compulsion or when it turns into some sort of broken coping mechanism. But just as well you might find it fun, fulfilling, or treat it as a learning experience, all without losing your head over it. Also some couples might share a hobby, some might consider participating in said hobby their quality time.
m463 4y ago
I think of gandalf: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us" - Gandalf (J.R.R. Tolkien)

unity1001 4y ago

> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? Why should something that unstresses, revitalizes and inspires you should be an addition. With that logic, food is an addiction. Sleep. Rest. Even poetry and art.

matwood 4y ago
Like most things, the dose makes the poison. A little Red Dead is probably great, too much probably bad. Gambling, food, sleep all fall into similar U shaped curves.
- elil17 4y ago
  Who are we to say how much is the right amount for this person? To play 6,000 hours of this game he must have a reason. Perhaps he's particularly passionate about it, perhaps there is someone in his life he loves to play it with.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikepurvis 4y ago
    I think that argument works a lot better if we're talking about a consumption level in the 10-100s of hours, along the lines of average for this title and most others like it: https://howlongtobeat.com/game/27100 https://howlongtobeat.com/game/27100 6000 hours is multiple orders of magnitude beyond that point, so it feels like a point where it's a lot safer to reach for an absolute judgment that it really is "too much".
    - elil17 4y ago
      It's a multiplayer game
      - mikepurvis 4y ago
        Fair, and I know that's a different ballgame if you're going to compare with Destiny 2 or WoW or League or something. But nonetheless, I think there's value in at least having some measure of calibration for what is reasonable and healthy.
        elil17 4y ago
        But you don't know his life. Why judge from afar? I'm not saying it's normal or recommendable for the average person. I'm just saying, we don't know.
chuckSu 4y ago

sirsinsalot 4y ago

Would you say the same about a 6k hour investment coding a game? This "if it isn't productive it isn't worthwhile" attitude is toxic.

Retric 4y ago
Sometimes yes. Side projects can be toxic if they leave little time for anything outside of them and work. The old idea that “nobody on their deathbed wished they spent more time at work” can easily apply to your side hustle.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  Your deathbed mindset is a pretty short time to have to endure to optimize your entire life around. Especially compared to the hundred or so years you have to live through.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Some people do spend 20+ years effectively on their death bed with little to comfort them but their regrets. Another way of looking at life is at 80 you can be of a sound mind but your body is only so healthy at that point. Yet a tiny fraction of people live another 40 years. I personally don’t think it’s worth heavily optimizing for those potential last 40 years. But, they should be part of long term planning at least as something that might happen.
  - haswell 4y ago
    The length of time enduring these thoughts/feelings is not the point. The point is that of the ways one chooses to spend those hundred or so years, people often find later in life that they wish they'd spent the time differently. They realize that they could have achieved much greater life satisfaction if they had. I don't believe in a literal hell, but someone once posited (sorry, cannot recall who at the moment) that hell is the "eternity" of thought that occurs as your consciousness fades away. Those thoughts you're thinking are the last thoughts you'll ever think. People don't want their last thoughts to be filled with regret. People want to die in peace. But the broader point isn't top optimize your life around the time you'll eventually spend on your deathbed - that's just where everyone ends up. The point is to optimize your life so that you are satisfied with life - something that is not limited to your dying hours.

redeeman 4y ago

12 work-days of a hobby and your partner labels it an addiction thats divorce worthy? sounds pretty terrible. I strongly suspect he/she is probably spending atleast as much time on his/her hobby.

redeeman 4y ago
couldnt edit, yes, meant work-weeks
trimbo 4y ago
I think you meant 12 work weeks
yourusername 4y ago
Closer to 12 work weeks.
TheCapn 4y ago
You can't really form any judgement without knowing more context. 450hrs over a year+? A couple months? Did the game interrupt important events or cause OP to neglect certain responsibilities?
- krallja 4y ago
  > Did the game interrupt important events or cause OP to neglect certain responsibilities? It's Factorio, so, yes.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
How do you figure 450hrs is only 12 working days??? It’s already 18 actual days. After a normal work day, after all my daily chores are done, gone to the gym and other things to take care of myself, I have maybe 2-3 hrs of free time. If we’re generous and say 3 hrs, that’s 150 days straight of spending your free time on a game and not your partner.

dmix 4y ago

You can't measure an addiction just by total hours invested in something. That equals 2.4hrs/day, 16hrs/week since the game was released, which might be more indicative but still depends on the reset of their life obligations and what else they seek value from.

cruano 4y ago
Yeah but isn't that a single player game ? Even if it had 100+ hours of gameplay, you'd have to repeat that so many times to get to 6000 hours Very different from someone that plays video games a few hours every day
- thefreeman 4y ago
  He mentions in a followup tweet (to someone recommending using Google Takeout to retrieve his save file) that he doesn't play story mode, so I assume there is a multiplayer mode.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Clearly you haven't read the article. It specifically mentions they don't play story mode (single player).
- williamscales 4y ago
  No, there is very much an online multiplayer side to the game
- nvrspyx 4y ago
  The person is quoted in the article as saying they don't play story mode and that Google Takeout wouldn't work for transferring their game save to PC as a result. This means that they've been playing the online component, Red Dead Online.
  - branon 4y ago

ZoomerCretin 4y ago

Somehow I doubt your partner would say the same of you watching TV or using social media for 450 hours.

tshaddox 4y ago

> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When there are significant negative consequences.

FredPret 4y ago

I had the same with Factorio, only I actually did get divorced. I went through many attempts to quit - including deleting my Steam account. Eventually I set up the household to Mac & Linux only to help increase the friction. Along with a lifestyle overhaul - new hobbies, and actual sport played outside, non-gaming seems to stick. Gaming addiction is real and it can truly destroy a life.

Elinvynia 4y ago
Factorio is Linux native though.
- FredPret 4y ago
  I can probably figure it out, but I use Linux for servers only. I’d have to jump through some hoops to get it running. The lifestyle changes I mentioned have displaced gaming in my dopamine system. I also never want to get sucked in again. That is my main defence.
  - gremlinsinc 4y ago
    On arch Linux: Yay steam .... Installing... Alt d Type steam Click or hit enter on app from dmenu. Done. Hardly something one figures out or learns to do, esp if they already use Linux.
  - kraig911 4y ago
    Just interested but could I get a list of those things you used? I don't want a divorce myself.
    - FredPret 4y ago
      Exercise is the main one for me. Pick something progressive and addictive, like weightlifting or distance running. You’ll get hooked but there’s a built-in limit to how much you can do per day and per week. I try to get out of the house on various adventures or even regular walks at every opportunity now. Also I took up some hobbies like reading and photography. Some people golf fanatically and they seem to be better off for it. At first, I unconsciously replaced game time with social media time, doomscrolling, news. Don’t do this. Be conscious and deliberate about subbing in quality leisure time. The main thing is to treat games like a serious addiction if it is one, and replace it with a full and rich life. This is obviously not easy, but that is, in part, the point.

vintermann 4y ago

But you know, you got to consider, is this an inherently disgusting, wasteful thing that you ought to be ashamed of? Or do you just feel that way because of other people think it is?

somenameforme 4y ago

That's pretty easy to define. An addiction is something that you want or feel you should quit or tone down, but don't have the self discipline to do. A hobby, even an obsession, is not an addiction. And similarly it's entirely possible to become addicted to "productive" things, like work. The Bezos-like individuals who have no lack of money yet still work relentlessly, even to the detriment of the other factors in their life, are a dime a dozen. And a person of his sort saying he wishes he could work less hard would be seen as little other than a humble brag, even if he may mean it absolute and desperate earnestness. And getting slightly philosophical for a moment, I doubt there's anybody on their deathbed that would regret spending as much time as they did doing the things that they enjoyed, unless those things started to themselves cause even greater problems. And a playtime alone does nothing to inform one as to the chances of the latter. For some, 5 hours a week might start causing problems - for others 60 hours a week would be perfectly fine.

antasvara 4y ago
I think that's not the best definition of an addiction. Plenty of people that smoke aren't actively trying to quit or even want to quit, but they are very clearly addicted to nicotine. It's the reason people have interventions: for a person addicted to something, it can be hard to actually admit that they're addicted to something. That should qualify, even if that person won't admit that their behavior has become a problem.

cranium 4y ago

I like this rule of thumb to know if a behavior can be a psychiatric disorder: "when it interferes with normal functioning". It's purposely vague and subject to interpretation but it's a good first filter. For an addiction X, you can ask questions like: * do I think about X most of the time * would I choose X over family/friends/health * when engaged in another activity, do I want it to be done quickly so I can go back to X * do I feel distressed when I can't do X * ... Looking years ago, my younger self has been addicted to WoW before realizing how little joy the game sparked when playing. And one day I just did not launch it and I was done with it. I certainly feel lucky to have been bored by the game before it did too much damages. Other additions are not so kind on the health/mind/wallet.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

Why is it your place to make that judgement?

charcircuit 4y ago

Have you considered that some people would prefer to spend more time in the digital world than the real world? Why do you think there is so much investment into the metaverse?

teawrecks 4y ago

> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When it negatively affects your life outside of that activity. We're also talking about someone who is apparently a steamer or YouTuber.

bawolff 4y ago

> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? When you are doing something society thinks is uncool. If someone spent that amount of time training to say run a marathon, nobody would blink an eye. Probably they would get praise for being dedicated.

moralestapia 4y ago
This is the right answer. Reminds me of the poor vs rich double standard meme. Poor guy getting drunk == "a bum"; rich guy getting drunk == "just having fun". Poor guy gets money from the govt. == "a leech"; rich guy gets money from the govt. == "a stimulus for the economy".
- anthony_d 4y ago
  > Poor guy gets money from the govt. == "a leech"; rich guy gets money from the govt. == "a stimulus for the economy". Huh? That's the exact opposite of everything I've seen. Rich people are called leeches just for being rich, let alone receiving money from the government.

emeril 4y ago

LOL @ Divorcio

thih9 4y ago

> At what point does a hobby turn into an addition? Not sure about genuine addiction, but you can have an unhealthy relation with your hobby, e.g. when it becomes a compulsion or when it turns into some sort of broken coping mechanism. But just as well you might find it fun, fulfilling, or treat it as a learning experience, all without losing your head over it. Also some couples might share a hobby, some might consider participating in said hobby their quality time.

m463 4y ago

I think of gandalf: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us" - Gandalf (J.R.R. Tolkien)