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USB Charger (USB Power Delivery)
- ksec 4y agoSorry, what is new about any of these? Or What is changed since USB PD 3.1 ?
- joshka 4y agoAs someone that owns more than a few synths and pedals, I hope one day that someone releases a decent multi-port USB charger that can power a bunch (10+) of 12V and 9V devices easily. All the ones I've found don't extend PD (QC3 would suffice) to all the ports.
- trustingtrust 4y agoSo a USB PD 3.1 device must support 5V 9V 20V 28V 36V and 48V right ? I wonder how much more complicated and costly the power circuitry will get.
- Pet_Ant 4y agoSure it's more complicated per charger but it's simpler when you look at the range for proprietary chargers that it is replacing. Complexity consolidation.
- scarface74 4y agoThought experiment: grab a random “standard” USB C cable and answer a few questions: - will it charge my MacBook Pro 16” and deliver the full 100W? - will it supply data and if so, at what speed? - can it deliver power and video over USB C and work with my portable secondary display?
- sovnade 4y agothe problem is that there is no "standard" usb-c cable. there's usb 3.0, usb 3.1, usb 3.2, usb 3.2 gen 2, usb-c thunderbolt, etc. this is a major problem they need to figure out imo. edit: or move to a new major version (usb 4.0) and make all new cables do all of that so if you get a 4.0 cable, you know you can use it for everything at once. i have no idea if this is currently the plan or not.
- scarface74 4y agoObligatory: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
- sovnade 4y agohah, i didn't say it was a simple problem to solve :)
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago>or move to a new major version (usb 4.0) They're already at USB4 version 2.0
- seba_dos1 4y ago> - will it charge my MacBook Pro 16” and deliver the full 100W? If it's e-marked, then yes. > - will it supply data and if so, at what speed? > - can it deliver power and video over USB C and work with my portable secondary display? If it's not just a USB 2.0 cable, then yes.
- scarface74 4y agoThese aren’t rhetorical questions. I didn’t start looking into USB until two years ago when I got a work MacBook. Before then, it had been almost a decade and a half since I had a Mac. - the USB C cable that came with the x86 Macs and most USB C charging cables are power only and don’t support data - many USB C cables that do support data only support data at USB2 speeds and don’t support video over USB - I think some cables can support video over USB C. But only support data at lower speeds than 10Gbps.
- megous 4y agoYeah, no. There are no non-data Type-C cable assemblies. If you have a C-C cable without at least USB 2.0 data signals wired through, it's not standards compliant: https://megous.com/dl/tmp/6e4e502cb9f6e709.png https://megous.com/dl/tmp/6e4e502cb9f6e709.png
- scarface74 4y agoThe USB C cable that comes with the MacBook Pro only supports charging https://www.macintoshhowto.com/hardware/why-your-usb-c-cable-may-not-work-to-connect-your-macbooks-together.html https://www.macintoshhowto.com/hardware/why-your-usb-c-cable...
- altairprime 4y agoThere are four different versions and a wide variety of power choices that each “USB C” cable is permitted to make. So the answer to your question is “it depends”, since 100W support is optional in USB-C cables. (Note: If you change “USB C” cable to “Thunderbolt 3” cable, those choices are all zeroed out. So the answer to that modified question is “yes”, since 100W support is mandatory in Thunderbolt 3 cables.) This will get better over the next year for certified cables that print USB-compliant logos on them, with the end of SuperSpeed branding: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33034530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33034530 > Branding for certified USB Type-C cables is also being updated. Rather than simply listing their data transfer speeds, cables will also (for the most part) have to list the charging wattage they’re capable of carrying. So a cable can’t just be branded as being a 40Gbps cable as with last year’s guidelines, it’ll now also have to list a charging speed like 60W or 240W. But I’ve never seen the USB logos printed on a cable before, so it remains to be seen whether the reduction in complexity to Gbps/W only is sufficient to persuade cable makers to certify their cables or not.
- seba_dos1 4y agoNo. It must support 5V, and optionally can support the rest (and more).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mschuster91 4y agoNo. Nothing of this is mandatory except 5V 100 mA (the old USB 1 baseline), which every device must support - every USB power source must be able to support a dumb load at 5V that consumes 100 mA of current, and every USB power sink can assume that it can safely draw 100 mA of current at 5V. That is why USB PD exists - it allows negotiation between a power source and a power sink to determine the voltage level that the source supplies and the maximum current that the sink can draw before the source shuts down for overcurrent protection. Additionally to that, there also exist a number of legacy current negotiation systems using pull-up and pull-down resistors between GND, Vcc and D+/D- (Qualcomm Quickcharge, Apple's stuff and I believe there is another proprietary Samsung scheme), and there is a legacy negotiation scheme from the USB 2 era that allows 5V at 500 mA. And on top of that, for the higher voltage and amperage ranges, cables carry their own "marker chips" that end up in the USB PD negotiation as well, to prevent dumb cables from overcurrent situation as well - IIRC it's >3A that need marked cables. For device implementers, both on the source and sink (or dual-role) device, there exist a number of specialized ASICs and implementation example circuits that can do all the negotiations required on their own (preconfigured with a separate EEPROM chip or via bootstrap resistors) or in cooperation with a device's microprocessor. There have been a number of high profile fuck-ups along the way (e.g. Nintendo Switch third party docks that passed high voltage to the Switch without negotiating first or the first RPi 4 generation that messed up resistors preventing marked cables from working), but by now the lessons learned from these should have propagated through the industry and the how-to guides.
- xani_ 4y agoIt's because standard have nightmarish level of complexity for something as simple as "pick a value from list one device provides and maybe change powering if that device signals you need to take less power"
- megous 4y agoThat's what the PD standard basically is at core. It tucks on other things, too, like negotiating alternate modes, USB data roles, power roles, role swaps, etc. But the core of the standard is just "here's a list of values, and here's a way to tell the source which value I want to use" + method of communicating + some legacy USB stuff and some simplified alternative methods for power sources without PD chips (resistor pull-ups on CC lines to negotiate between legacy/1.5A/3.0A).
- Goz3rr 4y agoThe device only has to support those voltage when it can source the matching power profile (i.e. 140W). But usually if you have to be able to generate two different voltages, it's not much more effort to make three or ten, as long as all the components can deal with the higher voltage.
- incanus77 4y agoThis great project blog that I follow has as its latest circuit a USB PD explorer and does a nice job of explaining the protocol: http://www.technoblogy.com/show?3Y8J http://www.technoblogy.com/show?3Y8J
- m463 4y agoI can't help but be reminded of the old-time Radio Shack "universal power adapters". They were a dc power adapter with a switch for voltage 3,6,9,12,... and an assortment of barrel jack power tips of different sizes.
- iamchp 4y agoReflecting, this is quite off topic, but due to more voltages supported by USB PD, I thought I'd bring this up. A few years back, I really wished all the AC/DC converters for smaller home appliances would ditch the fragmented round pins, and go for a universal USB-A (at the time) standard. E.g. some fans, routers, my smart desk, my key light, etc. Perhaps we would be able to optimize better unified AC/DC converters. Perhaps it would be nice to think about something like this. Instead of having bulky AC/DC converters, go for single multi-port USB-C PD converters?
- lazide 4y agoIt’s slowly happening - a great many small electronics have been transitioning to various USB connectors for charging (everything from bicycle lights to small drones). Those are all 5V though, which is great for typical one cell lithium, which is 3.7-4.2V, and where 500ma-2A is the most you’d need or want anyway. The issue so far is that for higher power levels or voltages the electronics are still complex and expensive, even with the PD standards, so it adds a lot of cost doing it that way compared to a typical barrel connector. Maybe in another 4-5 years and with some standardized and hopefully dirt cheap PD chips?
- ohples 4y agoI have a Home Pod mini in my kitchen which is powered via USB-C. Right now Its just using Apple's 18 w power brick. One of these days I mean to to install on of those mains outlets with built in USB-C ports: https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/usb-wall-outlets-chargers/usb-typec-with-power-delivery https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/usb-wall-out... It will eliminate a bulky adapter and let me use the plug for things that actually need AC, like my toaster or kettle. One wonders if it will start becoming common to have all plugs in newer/refab houses have these and they will be okay enough for most people. This is a little different then what your talking about, but both could be the norm. I imagine the form of what your talking about would be that power strips with a bunch of type - c ports on them (and maybe some AC) replace the power strips we use now.
- nordsieck 4y ago
- MrsPeaches 4y ago> An adjustable voltage supply mode allows the device being powered an ability to request intermediate voltages between 15V and up to the maximum available fixed voltage of the charger. So devices with this should be able to power anything in the range of 15-48V?
- Goz3rr 4y agoThis was already a thing with USB PD 3.0 called Programmable Power Supply (USB PD PPS) which can request between 3.3 and 21V in 20mV steps
- nashashmi 4y agoI have a USB c docking device connected to a USB c charging block. The block has three ports. And can deliver 45w,30w,20w,15w,and 10w. When plugging in a second device to the block, the docking device goes off and then turns on. Meaning the block has to turn off and boot on every time a device is removed or inserted.
- xani_ 4y agoAnd basically nothing supported that.
- lmpdev 4y agoAnything up to the maximum of the particular cable used (eg the cable could be maxed out at 24V) It would only power devices which do not draw more current than (240 W/Voltage) Amps
- joosters 4y agoI'm not going to be satisfied with USB power delivery until I can buy a decent USB kettle!
- sovnade 4y agoahhh yes, 12 gauge USB-C.
- lmpdev 4y agoI jokingly made a 6 gauge USB to Anderson SB50 cable to piss off a coworker Maybe next time I'll use JST?
- sovnade 4y ago6 gauge usb type a connector would be cruel. Get it wrong the first time? enjoy your workout.
- LinuxBender 4y agoPlease tell me you took a picture of this. Just don't show it to Monster or they will make one.
- boltzmann-brain 4y agoYes, I need a picture as well.
- xani_ 4y agoJust put one of those aliexpress usb-pd things so it actually delivers that 18-20V USB-C can
- robin_reala 4y agoA decent kettle needs 240V, which I don’t think you want to send down an Amazon Basics USB cable.
- deleted 4y ago
- e63f67dd-065b 4y agoNot an electrical engineer, but 240w through typical USB wire gauges doesn't seem safe at all. Does somebody have a good resource for the state of the USB-C ecosystem? How to determine which cables support what features, which icons mean what, etc.
- mciancia 4y agoIt's the same as right now. We have 100W (so 20V at 5A), we will have 240W (48V at 5A). Gauge doesn't change, since current stays the same
- xani_ 4y agoWell, except none of the cables or connectors of them was designed for 48V
- boltzmann-brain 4y agoThat's not true, a lot of the connectors just-so-happen to be rated for mains levels. This is because often USB chargers aren't ground referenced, so they hover at a little above 1/2 mains voltage. This is why if you touch some chargers or devices that are charging you get this weird electrical "sensation" sometimes.
- megous 4y agoThey are galvanically isolated. If you're getting any sensation at all, something is clearly wrong.
- boltzmann-brain 4y agoNo, they're not. Two-prong power supplies need to have EMI suppression capacitors which connect the secondary side of the power supply's transformer to mains [1]. The mains voltage is present on the output, but the maximum current is low enough that it is safe. It is considered not an issue by manufacturers [2] and it is a fact of many practical power supply designs. Please have any idea what you're talking about before you throw around technical terms like "galvanically isolated". You're clearly not an EE. [1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/478607/feeling-a-tingling-sensation-by-touching-stuff-is-this-safe https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/478607/feeli... [2] https://www.dell.com/en-us/blog/notebook-tingle-sensation-what-39-s-going-on/ https://www.dell.com/en-us/blog/notebook-tingle-sensation-wh...
- WaitWaitWha 4y agoHmm... I pray this does not foreshadow increased fires and accidental electric shocks. Very cheep USB cables are handed out like PEZ or chiclets.
- NavinF 4y agoAccidental electric shocks from 48V? What universe are you writing this comment from?
- VyseofArcadia 4y agoI love how we collectively ditched FireWire only to later use USB for power over data cables.
- cassianoleal 4y agoWasn't the issue with FireWire licensing costs?
- beefield 4y agoNow, who would start to standardize lithium ion battery packs for different voltages? It would be quite nice to have a pile of packs of 12V that you can slap together to get the voltages 24, 36 and 48 as you need and all your tools from power drill to chainsaw, lawnmower and ebike could use the same packs - regardless of the brand. (I assume there are some technical challenges regarding balancing a 1Ah pack with 80Ah pack when someone is going to slap them together to get 24V, but those can't be unsolvable.)
- Goz3rr 4y agoWe already have standardized voltages, they're a defining feature of each chemistry. What Makita markets as 18V batteries and DeWalt calls 20V are actually the same battery with the same voltage range. And regarding combining a 12V 1Ah pack and 80Ah pack together to create a 24V pack, you would end up with a 24V 1Ah pack, as by that time the first pack will have been emptied and you need to recharge it, while the other pack still has 79Ah remaining.
- hnuser123456 4y agoThis has me wondering how to engineer a circuit to have the 80Ah constantly charging/balancing with the 1Ah to maintain both the full voltage and capacity capabilities of both cells without shorting out the leads to the load. Of course, the peak power/current is still limited by the 1Ah cell. I guess the simple way is just put the cells in parallel and use a boost converter.
- stewarts 4y ago
- boltzmann-brain 4y agoThis whole strand of consideration serves no purpose since nowadays if a hardware designer wanted specific voltages they'd use a buck/boost converter with the effect that any battery can output any voltage at any current up to its total safe power output limit, with losses so minimal that they are negligible.
- solatic 4y agoWhat's incredibly exciting about USB power delivery is that it offers a glimpse at a future world with a common, unified electrical socket. If you go into a house, and there's a USB-C port on the wall, it can be used by anyone, anywhere in the world, for anything that charges through USB-C. Sure, at the moment, the supported voltages are relatively small. But over time, they will increase, and more and more gadgets and appliances can be powered through USB-C, the utility (network effects!) will only increase.
- gumby 4y ago> If you go into a house, and there's a USB-C port on the wall, it can be used by anyone I wouldn’t take that chance at most of my friends’ houses, much less any public place. USB-C condoms that provide Power Delivery are quite hard to build and I haven’t seen any in the wild.
- wjnc 4y agoThat has to be one long cable to charge anyone, anywhere in the world from a port in the wall. Yokes aside, USB has been a nice unifying set of plugs but the shenanigans with versioning and reliability would make me hesitant to say revolutionary. The standard always delivers a little less than envisioned.
- boltzmann-brain 4y agoSurely You're Yoking, Mr. Feynman!
- xani_ 4y ago48V is most likely the limit for tiny USB-C connector just because of conductor distance
- svnt 4y agoIt’s the limit because anything above that is no longer legally “low voltage.”
- 4y ago
- xani_ 4y agoWish the standard wasn't such a massive clusterfuck. IIRC someone tried to implement it on plain microcontroller (back then there were no chips dedicated to do the whole PD stuff) and it used 30k+ of memory which made using it for smaller devices... dubious. Of course now we have chips that blackbox that complexity but the standard seemed to be way over-engineered from the start... for just essentially negotiating few values and a direction
- WanderPanda 4y agoTrue, if it is too general/flexible for future extension, devices might start only implementing part of it and we are getting limited by this blurry line of which device supports what
- xani_ 4y agoWe're already at that point, altho mostly because standard is so complex so many companies got it wrong. There is also a ton of optional stuff, which pretty much means every device needing above 5V needs to have buck/boost converter
- UI_at_80x24 4y agoI've been thinking about getting a new laptop. Anybody have suggestions for: good linux support, powered via USB-C, able to use PCIe passthrough so I can play some windows games occasionally. 17" screen, cause I've got bad eyes.
- d0gsg0w00f 4y agoCan't speak to the PCIe passthrough but I've been happy with the usb-c charging on my Surface Laptop 4
- jayelbe 4y agoAnother Surface Laptop 4 owner, very happy with USB-C charging/docking, and I use Arch as my daily OS. Just be aware, there's currently no touchscreen support for this model: https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/issues/532 https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/issues/532
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]