11 ms·

Why are so many adults acting just like children?

86 points by loudtdarrow 4y ago

foogazi 4y ago
A psychologist I know told me “a man that lives with his parents is a castrated man” So bad for him for missing out on the adult experience - that said, who’s who to tell you how to behave ? Nobody asked to be born - we all just showed up, be yourself and try to get through this life as best you can without hurting others
newaccount2021 4y ago
the_other 4y ago
I gave up after a paragraph or two. It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. I don’t have time for that. Over time, I’ve come to see many “senior” or “success” behaviours as refined versions of childhood ones. Political sniping, business competitiveness, standard hierarchical power dynamics, etc. These are all “playground tactics” but grown up. I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” - supporting, sharing, collaborating, taking time out to understand one another’s needs, looking for win-wins. Of course, many adults do all these things. However, the higher up the power/success ladder you look, the harder these behaviours are to see. In a lot of situations, many people feel they need to win, or at best draw. Few enjoy losing, and the more they have riding on it (money, reputation, power), the more most people will aim to win. At the level of nations (or gangs), this gets deadly. The ways to win are just the same ways kids explore. The people most likely to win are the ones who lean hardest into those tactics. So, I’m saying “we’re all children”. If you want to complain about adults playing games and wearing bright colours, you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  > you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets. Don't we do that all the time?
- rtanks 4y ago
  So true
- nicoburns 4y ago
  > However, the higher up the power/success ladder you look, the harder these behaviours are to see. I don't have strong evidence for this, but I always feel like this is true until you get right to the very top - the individuals and organisations that are considered leaders in their fields. The difference between those people/organisations and the rest is often exactly that they are supportive, collaborative and doing things for the right reasons relative to the big picture rather than their local political context. It's harder to succeed if you don't engage with the "playground tactics", but those who do are the ones pushing society forwards.
  - the_other 4y ago
    > It's harder to succeed if you don't engage with the "playground tactics", but those who do are the ones pushing society forwards. And in many cases, some of them are holding us back. But your point still stands and I'm gonna think on it in coming weeks.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Further down: > But as the legendary Midcentury Modern designer Charles Eames put it, ‘toys and games are the preludes to serious ideas.’ Grownups who play with Lego, dump fortunes into JPEGs of cartoon characters online or dress like overgrown toddlers force us to question long-held assumptions about adulthood and society as a whole.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    I don't like the implication that those are somehow less worthy ways to spend one's time and money, or that the tendency towards those interests betrays some... divergent cognition or eccentricity. Pick any interest that you think is "proper" for an adult; the person who engages in it either enjoys it, in which case it's indistinguishable from any interest that doesn't meet that criterion, or they don't enjoy it, in which case the person is rather silly for using their free time to do things they don't enjoy.
    - nobodyandproud 4y ago
      It’s a generational article, for anyone of a certain age or older, explaining why what we see as “infantalization” serves a purpose and may yield very positive outcomes.
      - fluoridation 4y ago
        My problem is that it's not challenging its audience's assumption that the activities in question are childish. It tacitly grants that they're childish, and then tries to defend them by looking for a positive side. The corollary is that if that positive side didn't exist the reader would be justified in being outraged at what young people are doing.
        nobodyandproud 4y ago
        I don’t think that’s feasible, because the activities are child-like. Asking for that perspective shift requires a lifetime. What the article does challenge successfully is whether the negative connotations are merited. i.e., childish. And it uses a real life example to argue that it’s not merited at the big picture level.
- Folcon 4y ago
  As much as I think the rest of what you're saying is a really good point, I do think the article has some interesting things it says as well. For example: > By framing the embrace of childish sensibilities purely as a moral failing, and lumping all forms of it together, critics like Sasse and Andersen miss two important points. One is that there is a nourishing form of regression that harnesses the playfulness, creativity and diversity of childhood, but there is also a destructive form that manifests as blind rage. Both forms of regression are fuelled by a certain disappointment with society. Both crave the creation of something new. But one delights in transgressing boundaries through play, while the other polices boundaries through hate and violence.
- raydiatian 4y ago
  > So, I’m saying “we’re all children”. If you want to complain about adults playing games and wearing bright colours, you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets. I feel the same, but, this is one of those all or nothing things, and the irony is that our own barbaric origins are holding us back from ‘evolving’ so to speak. We have armies and nuclear armaments because, when it boils down; our species is full of agitated hungry animals, liars and cheats. You’d need to organize a whole species around a single-world order if you ever wanted to stop wars and denuclearize.
  - hoseja 4y ago
    "using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets" is literally "evolving". Natural selection, baby. It's not pretty. Unipolarity isn't the only solution but it's the most apparent one, and also the most terrifyingly totalitarian one.
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      I mean I can really only imagine two broad categories for “solutions” 1) Someone demonstrates a bigger stick. At this point a bigger stick is effective counter-nukes, or perhaps the presence of an alien civilization. 2) What you call unipolarity, although I think both are unipolarity. Mass behavioral transcendence towards a higher form of morality. Maybe achieved via BCI, or improving standard of living, or subtle coercions by AI, or looming threat of climate change prompting transformative cooperative efforts. The latter was omitted for brevity, due to its unlikelihood. Of course it’s not binary, there’s a bit of each in the other.
    - trinsic2 4y ago
      Yeah that's a grim way to look at the world. And there are many who are engaging in that mindset. There will come a time when taking from others because of the unwillingness to be a creative member of society is seen as a curable mental illness.
      - 4y ago
- orblivion 4y ago
  Axe throwing, IPAs, cosplay outfits? Learn to play golf and drink scotch in your smoking jacket like an adult.
  - couchand 4y ago
    You're telling me kids won't chase a tiny ball around a yard or convince each other to consume things that are gross?
    - d3nj4l 4y ago
      They have way more fun doing it, though.
    - sbaiddn 4y ago
      You said it, they're kids! If you can't man up and drink something gross without grimacing, or have the self control to play the most frustrating game in history, you don't have the self-mastery to be near the lever of power.
  - sbaiddn 4y ago
    The only creative thing left in IPA brewing is figuring out a marijuana reference that hasn't been done yet.
    - chongli 4y ago
      The real creativity in IPAs is in the different cultivars of hops. That is to say, the real work of making a delicious beverage is done by the plants and the people who grow them tend to be the experts. But this is no different to wine or coffee, two other classes of beverage with endless varieties and variations of characteristics. Just try to ignore the social pretences of the group. All three beverage communities have their extremists who can be quite annoying. But on the other end of the spectrum you’ll find some warm, down-to-earth people who just want to have fun exploring different flavours and textures. That’s really all there is to it!
  - MrFantastic 4y ago
- strikelaserclaw 4y ago
  our richest man is essentially a man child and i believe mores in society are always established by those at the top.
  - spaceman_2020 4y ago
    How is he a “man child”? Does tweeting funny memes or light trolling make you child? If yes, is that not negated by raising multiple children, founding multiple businesses, and employing hundreds of people?
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      He has incorrect politics and therefore is any negative label one can create.
    - strikelaserclaw 4y ago
      i meant man child as in, he does not prescribe to what an "adult" should behave like according to old societal standards. I'm making no moral judgments, as i too am what most would consider a "man child".
- sp332 4y ago
  It takes a bit to get going, but the article does go somewhere. Search for the word "corollary" and go from there.
- oytis 4y ago
  > I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” This depends on the public pressure to do so I believe. As a counterexample one could name German ex-chancellor Angela Merkel. You can hardly name any decisions she carries full responsibility for, her role was mostly to mediate finding a compromise between interests of different parties.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bigodbiel 4y ago
  Very true, childish behavior, specially by decision makers, is the bane of society (always has been). Cosplaying by adults should be the least of our worries, and besides it isn't even a recent phenonema (at least not for men): carnival, secret cults, religious ceremonies.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    Attending a masquerade was a sign of high society — all the way up to royalty. I’m confused how that’s fundamentally different than cosplay at a convention.
- giantg2 4y ago
  I made it farther than that, but also stopped. It seemed to go on and on without making it's point. It also seems it missed a big part (unless they talk about it later). Sure, some people might be doing stuff because of hardships and responsibilities (like living at home to save money). But I think there are also those who were not given responsibilities as a child and don't know how to be responsible and act like an adult now that they are one. I think the delays are even evident in our laws (age of many things continues to increase).
- gilbetron 4y ago
  I wouldn't say I liked the article, but it did have some nuance to it and ended with mostly an opposite conclusion: "The seemingly extreme ways in which adults now play, from Zillennial runway models dressing like kindergarteners, to ‘cuddle parties’, to grownups who choose to marry at Disney resorts – all of it, and more to come – is a reaction to the extreme times in which we find ourselves living. The entire planet may be experiencing its own lost decades now – young and old are suffering. But, as the Japanese experience shows us, embracing our inner child isn’t necessarily a denial of reality. It can pave the way to an entirely new one. The Great Regression isn’t really a regression at all. It’s a sign of resilience in the face of profound adversity. When a child is born, it’s impossible to predict what they might become. Who can say what will emerge from our second childhoods?"
- evancox100 4y ago
  > It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. That is basically the opposite of what it said.
  - shlant 4y ago
    who knew that not reading an article could lead you to the opposite conclusion of what the article is actually about! But a comment must be made on it regardless. On to the next one.
- DavidSharff 4y ago
  > I gave up after a paragraph or two. It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. I don’t have time for that. The author had quite the opposite conclusion: > The Great Regression isn’t really a regression at all. It’s a sign of resilience in the face of profound adversity. Just as I was fading a few paragraphs in, one of the straw men (IMHO) thrown out caught my eye. How had I not heard of Alexis de Tocqueville's 1835 critique, Democracy in America? If you want to wrestle with someone making a much better form of the argument you (understandably) thought was in the article, check it out: https://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/DETOC/ch4_06.htm https://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/DETOC/ch4_06.htm Honestly, you and Tocqueville are saying something very similar at the core. A polite society has a known exploit: not behaving politely. The exploit is used by those seeking to amass power and influence. The result, he posits: > It would be like the authority of a parent if, like that authority, its object was to prepare men for manhood; but it seeks, on the contrary, to keep them in perpetual childhood: it is well content that the people should rejoice, provided they think of nothing but rejoicing. For their happiness such a government willingly labors, but it chooses to be the sole agent and the only arbiter of that happiness; it provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and subdivides their inheritances: what remains, but to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living?
  - the_other 4y ago
    Great reply. Thanks. Will ponder and (at least aim to) put this on my reading list.
    - sekia 4y ago
      It's funny that you are going to spend time on the article after knowing its conclusion (, which is acceptable for you).
- mistermann 4y ago
  > Over time, I’ve come to see many “senior” or “success” behaviours as refined versions of childhood ones. Political sniping, business competitiveness, standard hierarchical power dynamics, etc. These are all “playground tactics” but grown up. I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” - supporting, sharing, collaborating, taking time out to understand one another’s needs, looking for win-wins. It isn't very hard though to find plenty of people acting out those behaviors, both in their own behavior and in the perception/description of the behavior of their in-group members. Adults in 2022 can be conceptualized as being a lot like children "playing house", except we lack a physical frame of reference representing superior competence and wisdom to humble us, as adults provide for children.
- Micoloth 4y ago
  I agree with everything you say about the article, except for the idea that aggressiveness (in all its form) has historically been considered more childish that collaboration. I mean, the ability to go to war, together with being a father, has always been considered as the maximum level of adulthood for men, as far as I understand. And to be clear, I’m not even say that latest generations are “less adult”, ie “less aggressive”, because they are somehow “better”. In my view, this is a direct consequence of the fact that in the current society, aggressiveness is simply a less effective strategy, on average. Civilization is too complex now, and there are simply too many people around, for aggressive war-like behaviour to be succesful. Even the most hypercompetitive youth today, say in startups or such, are usually extremely diplomatic persons, that are able to navigate people. “We are all children” because there is simply no more room to be aggressive!
- the_other 4y ago
  Thanks to all who've encouraged me to read the rest of the article. I will.
boxed 4y ago
> But this time, at this moment in history, things feel different. Things are different, they always are.
willis936 4y ago
I don't agree that escapism is a pure virtue. I do agree that escapism is a reaction to being unhappy with the current state. Escapism is an illusion though. Spend enough time around it with a curious mind and it loses effectiveness. The cure at that point is improving the state.
- croon 4y ago
  But if you can't enact change (on a macro scale) your choice (or lack of choice) drives you either back to explicit escapism, or into escapism masquerading as action (eg Qanon fiction). The former is less destructive.
- pgorczak 4y ago
  It could also be a very real consequence of feeling that you can’t or shouldn’t change the state and are therefore not responsible for it. The article doesn’t mention consumerism as a cause but I feel like it plays a role when people are mostly expected to play a passive role and fuel the economy in their spare time.
Brajeshwar 4y ago
I usually remind myself of this quote, “We Never Really Grow Up, We Just Learn How To Act In Public.”
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  One of the most depressing things about growing up is realising the playground bullies don't disappear. They just surround themselves with armies, lawyers, accountants, and propaganda/PR people.
qwerty456127 4y ago
I don't even understand why do people become adult in the first place. Sure, your body changes and you begin to understand some more complex things you previously couldn't (and that's fun), but why change anything else? Why be boring and take bullshit seriously?
- raydiatian 4y ago
  - weregiraffe 4y ago
    - raydiatian 4y ago
      It was just such an absurd take on things it couldn’t have been anything but a joke.
- lioeters 4y ago
  I believe it's because the children who manage society and business want their workers and citizens to take their bullshit seriously. So they shaped a false and convenient image of what it means to be an "adult", such as putting work above family and personal life.
  - insightcheck 4y ago
    Yes, it's because of incentives. In dating, it's seen as a big negative to be a "manchild" or be dating a manchild; in less inflammatory terms, being seen as immature is seen as negative in the dating world. This is actually quite fair: it's natural for someone in a relationship to prefer a responsible person with self-control (e.g. holds a good job, cleans up, and is financially responsible). A person can take being an "adult" too far, however. They can say that anything that doesn't help you earn money is a waste of time, that anything creative is also a waste of time, and chase status and money. Maybe many of these people got burned at some point for being childish (e.g. they were criticized by a manager or partner and made to feel shame), which explains the behavior. It depends on your goals, but a nice moderate view is to discard with the labels, and aim to be responsible and have self-control, while also being curious and open to creative pursuits. It's also great to enjoy whatever media you like without caring about what others think (whether it's obscure or mainstream).
theGnuMe 4y ago
As long as it is not coupled with toddler tantrums. We all know adults who have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. I’m more concerned about America’s growing body of narcissism.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  Narcissism has always been the unstated official state religion of the US. Which is true of all empires. You don't get to run the world - at least the parts you can access - by having empathy for the people you're exploiting and abusing. One of the popular forms of gaslighting is labelling empathy and concern "childish", "unrealistic", and "unserious."
celeritascelery 4y ago
This reminds me of Rob Henderson piece about why adults care what children think[1]. There seems to be an unwillingness to grow up in modern society. Growing up doesn’t mean you can’t have fun or enjoy kid “toys”. But it does mean taking on responsibility, being dependable, and willing to lead younger generations. [1]https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/i-have-yet-to-hear-a-satisfactory?utm_source=substack https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/i-have-yet-to-hear-a-sa...
thesaint 4y ago
jbirer 4y ago
Infantilization by parents who wanted to keep the kids forever tied and dependent to them.
subjectsigma 4y ago
This article is full of such strange implied absolutisms and "just-so" stories. The silliest and most striking one is probably "Japanese women invented and pioneered emoji". As far as I know the :) symbol was first used by an American man, and there was no specific gendered usage of emoji afterwards.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  Emoji and emoticons are not the same.
  - subjectsigma 4y ago
    Yes, this is technically true, however this is pedantic nitpickery that's besides the point. 1) The article specifically mentions emoji. 2) Emoticons and emoji are extremely related concepts and emoticons influenced the development of emoji. 3) Neither emoji nor emoticons were invented or popularized by women AFAICT. Pointing out that they are not the same thing doesn't mean that emoji or emoticons were invented by women or for women, which is what the article basically said outright. My original point was: if the article gets silly things like "emoji are feminine" completely wrong, why can I trust the other things it says?
  - LBJsPNS 4y ago
    Thank dog.
- krapp 4y ago
  "emoji" is a Japanese term. They were invented by Japanese phone manufacturer DoCoMo, and popularized in the west when implemented by the iPhone.
  - subjectsigma 4y ago
    Yes, thank you, I can read Wikipedia as well. This does not support the articles statement that emoji and/or emoticons were invented and popularized by women, or that emoji/emoticons are specifically feminine.
daoist_shaman 4y ago
Leaving this here for those who might be interested in the concept of an inner child [0]. I like to think of the inner child in mathematical terms: if I am 40 years old, then it also holds true that I am 6, 10, 16, and 21. At all times, I carry with me the memories (with implicit feelings and attitudes) from each of those distinct years. The person I am today consists of those years strung together. It’s no wonder things like Pokemon and CRTs intrigue me. Six year old me likes them too, and he never left. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_child
- mcphage 4y ago
  There's a great short on Disney+ based on this idea—it's about a woman who just turned 21 going out to a club with her sister, but really she's just the 1-year-old, 10-year-old, and 16-year-old versions of herself in a trench coat. It's very cute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Something_(2021_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Something_(2021_film)
civilized 4y ago
Could the author skip the mini op-ed about the Great Whatever they have decided Society is going through, and just talk about the actual historical topic that could at least be potentially interesting (Japan in the 90s)?
jl6 4y ago
> In 2020, a Pew study revealed that more than half of 18- to 29-year-old Americans were living with their parents. This is the part I think we all need to be talking about more. It’s a huge root cause of everything else the article discusses. I have come to understand adulthood as being centered on responsibilities, and adult behaviour as handling those responsibilities well. The transition to adulthood is the gradual accumulation of responsibilities, and the cultivation of adult behaviour is the process of learning to handle them. Living with parents is a barrier to that progression. It defers basic responsibilities like funding your own food and shelter. It makes relationships harder to start, and having children of your own seems out of reach. Now, there are other sources of responsibility that are attainable while living in mom’s basement. You can still go out to work. You can still have a responsibility to a cause. And maybe the reason you are still at home is to care for your parents. But for a great many people, seemingly including the article author, living at home is a source of shame - a failure to launch. I can see two ways forward here. Either we manage to address the economic issues that make independent living unaffordable. Or we rediscover multigenerational households as a virtue. There are many advantages to having grandparents, parents and children all together as a unit. If we can destigmatize living with parents, perhaps we can stop treating it as a waiting room for responsibility, and unblock progress towards adulthood.
- Sebguer 4y ago
  This is a ridiculously American-centric viewpoint.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  I don't know if this is the root cause. I moved out at 18 and I still think I'm pretty childish compared to my parents now that I'm over 35. Personally, I blame/credit the internet. Internet culture is perpetually stuck in the 16-25 range and I'm "terminally online". However, I think it's also important to distinguish between a facade of seriousness and actual maturity. I know many older (boomer) adults who, while acting "adult", are manipulative, self-centered, or constantly stirring up drama. Basically, not able to manage their own emotional states. I'll take an emotionally balanced 40 year old cosplayer over that any day and would argue that the cosplayer is more mature despite outward appearances.
jiggywiggy 4y ago
It depends on what we want from our adults. And if we feel like we can demand some sort of contribution. We got to a point where we can get away with the majority of our population being self-centered and living, at least part of their time, in a fantasy world as en escape from getting their life in order. As the article claims it can be "nourishing", but nourishing for what. If you need parents, builders, engineers, philosiphers it won't make that out of them. (im aware at least a bunch of the people who engage in this behaviour are actually contributing massively and this is their way of blowing off steam)
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I think I am growing tired of the entertainment industry seemingly solely catering to the fantasy world though. I've stopped going to see movies since the Superhero Wave began — which means for like the past decade or more. I have to go back to earlier eras in film to find what I would call "adult" films (at the risk of enraging a number of people). Hey, I love LEGO, like building plastic models of space ships, all of that. But I like some vegetables in my diet as well.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Nasrudith 4y ago
The most childish thing is trying to be an adult with absent understanding of why. Horrifying are the people who have kids just to keep up with the Jonses. The parts I see actually worthy of concern of childishness are disregard for how things work and what it takes to achieve them. Relatedly there is a third issue of dependence but it has too many other non-attitude causes. These are my own admitted biases. Childishness is a rather useless conflation of all. Humans are childish compared to great apes. Curiosity and tinkering are also childish but they have brought us the furthest forward.
jdmtheNth 4y ago
Delayed Adulthood; there's no real reason to grow up any more, because young have all the rights but none of the responsibilities of their parents. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-008-x/2007004/10311-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-008-x/2007004/10311-e... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/extended-adolescence-when-25-is-the-new-181/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/extended-adolesce... https://archive.ph/OMwyL https://archive.ph/OMwyL
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I have all the paraphernalia of adulthood - a mortgage, a car, a career, a wife, a child (and hopefully more on the way) - but I have none of the mindset, attitude, or even the body language “adults” used to have. Or at least adults from my father’s generation. I do improv on the weekends. Sometimes I produce music. Edgy, electronic stuff. I like to dance and do strange, funny gestures and voices with my kid. Its a riot when my nephews and nieces are over. I like to dress up in bright, colorful clothes. I work from home and see no point in even pretending to look serious. Lately, I’ve grown my hair out and even had a failed attempt at a proper long rip van winkle beard. Maybe this isn’t what adults are supposed to act like. This is certainly not what my dad acted like when he was my age. But who the hell cares?
- kennyadam 4y ago
  Edgy.
- shlant 4y ago
  from my experience with friends and acquaintances over the course of my life, I have found a trend with people who care a lot about being perceived as adults - they are almost all very unhappy and unfulfilled in their lives. Not sure if this mirrors anyone else's observations. It seems a lot of people believe the need to be responsible is inseparable from looking like you fit into a narrow definition of what is perceived as responsible. But maybe I am just observing the result of living your life being concerned about how you look in general and not specifically about adult-ness.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  What I think happened is that having fun in your free time is no longer considered peculiar and strange. People have built model railways for decades at least, but the people who had hobbies like that used to be considered strange recluses with no social life. I think you were "supposed" to do a lot more group things, and group things come with pressure to fit in. The same was true in many work environments, where suits and uniforms made an office floor a homogenized blob of business workforce, whereas clothing standards have gone down in terms of "professionality" since at least the late 80s. These days, you can do your own thing, and people are generally cool with that as long as you don't bother them with your hobbies. There's less judging, less expectations to fit the norm, and more self-expression in a lot of "modern" behaviour. Certain people in the older generation seem to lament this; "back in my day, we didn't play dress up and go to conventions" and other such nonsense. I don't know if it's inability to let other people have fun or envy of the freedoms (young) adults have these days, but it feels like the main focus of their complaint seems all about how modern things weren't considered proper and right back when they were young, rather than provide some reason why people shouldn't do what they do for fun. Another change is the internet: my dad didn't have the internet when he was young so many hobbies he developed were based on social activities (sports and such) and collecting (records, CDs, etc.); you were very unlikely to run into someone who was as much into painting tiny figurines as you are online. I also think childhood media plays a role: kids' shows have moved away from random violence towards a more constructive, positive role. The message of "just be yourself and you can do anything you want" that children's media repeated has seeped into kids of yesteryear, just like many shows about accepting people for who they are and being kind to another is changing the way kids act these days. Compare that to the old magazines from the 50s and 60s where children were told how to prepare for adulthood, how to be a good husband/wife, it was all so dang militaristic! None of this is universal, of course; there are always people who will oppose the mainstream, who will do their own thing, or who will cling to old, outdated norms. However, you can find many discussions online about how kids are more caring towards each other than before, and you can find many news articles about "millenials" doing all kinds of things "wrong", written by angry old people who failed to keep up with the world. Your last sentence is exactly right: who the hell cares? That's what makes the millennials different from the generation before it, and I'm sure their grandchildren will bring their own unique twist to society!
user_named 4y ago
Adults are children
jononomo 4y ago
I've been noticing this for at least a decade now: people don't seem to grow up anymore. When I think of my grandfathers, who were born in 1898 and 1905, respectively, I remember serious men. They were good-humored, but they were adults and they carried their weight in the world. My father, born in 1935, also has that seriousness. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it is that men under 70 lack now, but it is definitely something important.
- Phrenzy 4y ago
  You mention that men under 70 lack a certain something. Are you sure it isn't that men have gained something they didn't have in the past? I have thought a lot about how the human condition has changed over the years. I feel the most important change is modern human's ability to think in the abstract. If you were to ask a pre-modern human to group a chicken, a crow, a stick, and a tree. They might group the chicken and the stick together because they would use the stick to kill the chicken and make a meal. Whereas a modern human would most likely group the chicken and crow, and the stick and tree together. The tendency to think abstractly has exploded over the last hundred years or so, and it has fundamentally changed how we see and react to the world. A great explanation of this comes from the Ted-talk of James Flynn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  This comment reminded me of the 1997 episode of The Simpsons, "Homer's Phobia", the adults thought the best way to ensure Bart would grow up to be a proper man was to send him off to war to kill someone, but lacking a war they go hunting so he can kill a deer instead.
  - jononomo 4y ago
    One of my grandfather's did serve in World War One.
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  >> My father, born in 1935, also has that seriousness. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it is that men under 70 lack now, but it is definitely something important. "Seriousness" or calcified melancholy?
keiferski 4y ago
I think this actually a serious issue and I’m disappointed that the comments are mostly defensive. If I had to pick two things that have led to adults acting like children, it would be: - the lack of any real “coming of age” ritual in Western culture. The closest we get is going to college, which has developed into something deliberately removed from adult reality - the slow removal of cultural rules that indicated a space was to be taken seriously. For example, wearing a suit and caring about your appearance, not using swear words in public, keeping details of your private life to yourself, and so on. I read somewhere that memes are the artform of the contemporary Zeitgeist, which makes a ton of sense to me. Memes are funny but ultimately just easy, fast-food-style culture. They would not be the predominant art form in a society capable of building something more complex, spiritual, and long-term, like a medieval cathedral or an Italian Renaissance sculpture.
- overthemoon 4y ago
  I too am disappointed in the defensiveness. It's a completely valid point, and using Japan as a precursor in this narrative was really enlightening, I think. There are a million causes and effects one could talk about here, supporting all manner of ideologies, and of course I've got my own. But that people are increasingly preoccupied with meaningless, child-like consumption, of fun over joy, is actually a problem. I say this as a big nerd who likes games and comics and so forth, which I think is where some of the defensiveness comes in. I don't think the problem is located in liking comics. It's in making comics your identity. It's adopting the identity of a fan, a consumer, of making that your outward image, that makes people more childish and less trustworthy, less serious, and easier to control.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Not the predominant art form maybe, but I think they could have fundamental importance to a sophisticated culture. A culture that takes memes seriously, that can publicly acknowledge and defend/reconcile itself with truths that memes can so often reveal and illustrate so brutally efficiently (at times, not always) may be much more powerful than one that (often) dismisses them due to triviality / "fake news", or (~secretly) uses them to dismiss inconvenient facts (or, simply doesn't really take them seriously, etc). Memes, the non-visual ideas kind (inaccurate generalizations, "fact"oids, figures of speech, cognitive norms if you don't mind stretching the definition a bit, etc) play a huge role in human communication, but this is so fundamental that it seems to be sub-perceptual and thus evades our attention and consideration.
jononomo 4y ago
I joined a startup several years ago and worked with a bunch of people in their 20s who were Harry Potter obsessives. I just couldn't believe it. To this day I cringe thinking about them.
smeej 4y ago
I think this may be because this is the first generation in human history to have endless distraction in our pockets, so that's become our "escape of least resistance." Any time we feel overwhelmed, we turn to diversion and distraction. Pre-world-wide-web-in-your-pocket, what were your options when you needed a break from your regular life? There were definitely unhealthy ones, like drinking to excess, but even that often took place around other people, and it wasn't as easily available as doomscrolling. It's not half as easy to pull out your flask when you're on the train or in an elevator or standing in line at Chipotle for more than 3 minutes and become uncomfortable. We're the first generation that never has to stand still and be uncomfortable, basically ever. If something is emotionally difficult, we can run from it. Maybe this stunts us. Maybe it keeps us from gaining the perspective that the discomfort normally either resolves on its own, relatively quickly and in a positive way (i.e., the line quickly leads to lunch), or it inspires action, which might lead us to prove our own efficacy to ourselves when we realize we can do something to address the situation rather than just running away. Adulthood is characterized by having the perspective that enables us to do unpleasant things in the short-term for the sake of long-term benefits. But if we continue not to need to face even the mild tedium of standing in a line without distraction, how are we ever going to convince ourselves of the benefits of doing anything we don't immediately want to do?
jononomo 4y ago
One of the biggest childishness-in-adulthood trends I've noticed is people supporting Trump. I could see a fourth-grader falling for Trump's schtick, maybe even a seventh-grader, but beyond that age supporting Trump is just a sign that you have not matured.
- mistermann 4y ago
  I think it's worth considering whether there are numerous levels to this phenomenon, and that you yourself are on one of those levels (as we all are)...and perhaps not the highest one (of which there may be no such thing, in fact).
  - jononomo 4y ago
    Why would that be worth considering?
    - mistermann 4y ago
      A motivation would be to increase the likelihood of one's perceptions of what's going on aligning with what is actually going on (which is what Trump supporters are often criticized for). Whether this qualifies for being worth it is largely (but not necessarily entirely) a subjective matter.
      - jononomo 4y ago
        You’re begging the question
        mistermann 4y ago
        Begging the question: Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion. Arguments that beg the question work to obscure the actual points in controversy and can be looked at as a form of circular reasoning. This is false, because I have not actually done any such thing (it is not contained in my text, or the ideas behind my text). In fact, what physically/objectively occurred is that I explicitly did the opposite: "I think it's worth considering whether..."). I might respond by saying that you are engaging in rhetoric: Rhetoric: language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content. ...but then, this would be to assume conscious (and perhaps nefarious) intent. Rather, I suspect most likely what is happening is that you are (or, something is) engaging in perception. Perception: a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression. What do you think about this perspective?
jononomo 4y ago
There used to be an "adult movie" industry that was not porn, but was just... sophisticated movies that could be appreciated by an adult audience. But now it feels to me like 30 years after I outgrew comic books the movie industry is trying to get me back into comic books.
woopwoop 4y ago
I feel like the phenomenon of people in their twenties living with their parents should only be attributed to deep cultural currents after we're 100% sure that it's not the exploding cost of housing in the most productive, well-paying metropolitan areas (which also happen to be the most fun places for a young adult to live).
ilikerashers 4y ago
I wonder if this ties into the quiet quitting and anti-work sentiment we're seeing post COVID too. People are stressed, wages lower than we deserve and no sign of changing, competition is now global with benefits going to a fraction of society, economic news which just gets darker. I don't blame people for regressing and "lying flat". My escape is watching people fishing and diving on deserted Indonesian islands on YT. Then I remember I have to cover my kid's £100 per day nursery and private school fees..... I need a heavy blanket.
- nine_zeros 4y ago
  People are working too hard for too little gain. It's a mass burnout all over the society. And now, everyone will have to face another boom bust cycle. At some point, people just stop caring. The society wasn't working for them anyway. It might as well collapse.
  - ilikerashers 4y ago
    Doesn't seem like it collapses anymore. We have MMT and QE so we all keep going. Perhaps this is the peak-capitalism environment. People stop caring about striving.
uhtred 4y ago
But behaving like a grown up is such a drag, man
ElfinTrousers 4y ago
> But this time, at this moment in history, things feel different. Coincidentally, it is this time, at this moment in history, that the author of this article is starting to get old.
scotty79 4y ago
Because adults are just tall children. With increasing amount of psychological scarring. Maybe modern adults just suffer small enough amount of scarring that their actual child selves are still recognizable under that when compared to older generations.
zephrx1111 4y ago
Cannot agree. For neoteny on human, Peter Diamandis’ Abundance might give a better attribution.
carapace 4y ago
Adulthood is essentially a learned response to a dangerous and traumatic environment. Extended childhood is the essence of humanity (as contrasted with animals.) Neoteny - "also called juvenilization,[5] is the delaying or slowing of the physiological, or somatic, development of an organism, typically an animal. Neoteny is found in modern humans compared to other primates." > Neoteny is seen in domesticated animals such as dogs and mice.[25] This is because there are more resources available, less competition for those resources, and with the lowered competition the animals expend less energy obtaining those resources. This allows them to mature and reproduce more quickly than their wild counterparts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny The point of being human is to change the environment to permit a more relaxed and enjoyable life. What we call "adulthood" is the adjustment to a harsh reality, but that reality is not immutable. Science and technology (developed by our "neotenous" brains) gives us the leverage to literally remake the world in our image.
theGnuMe 4y ago
On a related topic I wonder if the Japanese phenomena of Hikikomori is a result of small living spaces and a lack of economic opportunity that fails to nurture independence. In the US we also have "failure to launch" as a close analog.

86 points by loudtdarrow 4y ago

A psychologist I know told me “a man that lives with his parents is a castrated man” So bad for him for missing out on the adult experience - that said, who’s who to tell you how to behave ? Nobody asked to be born - we all just showed up, be yourself and try to get through this life as best you can without hurting others

newaccount2021 4y ago

the_other 4y ago

I gave up after a paragraph or two. It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. I don’t have time for that. Over time, I’ve come to see many “senior” or “success” behaviours as refined versions of childhood ones. Political sniping, business competitiveness, standard hierarchical power dynamics, etc. These are all “playground tactics” but grown up. I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” - supporting, sharing, collaborating, taking time out to understand one another’s needs, looking for win-wins. Of course, many adults do all these things. However, the higher up the power/success ladder you look, the harder these behaviours are to see. In a lot of situations, many people feel they need to win, or at best draw. Few enjoy losing, and the more they have riding on it (money, reputation, power), the more most people will aim to win. At the level of nations (or gangs), this gets deadly. The ways to win are just the same ways kids explore. The people most likely to win are the ones who lean hardest into those tactics. So, I’m saying “we’re all children”. If you want to complain about adults playing games and wearing bright colours, you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
> you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets. Don't we do that all the time?
rtanks 4y ago
So true
nicoburns 4y ago
> However, the higher up the power/success ladder you look, the harder these behaviours are to see. I don't have strong evidence for this, but I always feel like this is true until you get right to the very top - the individuals and organisations that are considered leaders in their fields. The difference between those people/organisations and the rest is often exactly that they are supportive, collaborative and doing things for the right reasons relative to the big picture rather than their local political context. It's harder to succeed if you don't engage with the "playground tactics", but those who do are the ones pushing society forwards.
- the_other 4y ago
  > It's harder to succeed if you don't engage with the "playground tactics", but those who do are the ones pushing society forwards. And in many cases, some of them are holding us back. But your point still stands and I'm gonna think on it in coming weeks.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Further down: > But as the legendary Midcentury Modern designer Charles Eames put it, ‘toys and games are the preludes to serious ideas.’ Grownups who play with Lego, dump fortunes into JPEGs of cartoon characters online or dress like overgrown toddlers force us to question long-held assumptions about adulthood and society as a whole.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  I don't like the implication that those are somehow less worthy ways to spend one's time and money, or that the tendency towards those interests betrays some... divergent cognition or eccentricity. Pick any interest that you think is "proper" for an adult; the person who engages in it either enjoys it, in which case it's indistinguishable from any interest that doesn't meet that criterion, or they don't enjoy it, in which case the person is rather silly for using their free time to do things they don't enjoy.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    It’s a generational article, for anyone of a certain age or older, explaining why what we see as “infantalization” serves a purpose and may yield very positive outcomes.
    - fluoridation 4y ago
      My problem is that it's not challenging its audience's assumption that the activities in question are childish. It tacitly grants that they're childish, and then tries to defend them by looking for a positive side. The corollary is that if that positive side didn't exist the reader would be justified in being outraged at what young people are doing.
      - nobodyandproud 4y ago
        I don’t think that’s feasible, because the activities are child-like. Asking for that perspective shift requires a lifetime. What the article does challenge successfully is whether the negative connotations are merited. i.e., childish. And it uses a real life example to argue that it’s not merited at the big picture level.
Folcon 4y ago
As much as I think the rest of what you're saying is a really good point, I do think the article has some interesting things it says as well. For example: > By framing the embrace of childish sensibilities purely as a moral failing, and lumping all forms of it together, critics like Sasse and Andersen miss two important points. One is that there is a nourishing form of regression that harnesses the playfulness, creativity and diversity of childhood, but there is also a destructive form that manifests as blind rage. Both forms of regression are fuelled by a certain disappointment with society. Both crave the creation of something new. But one delights in transgressing boundaries through play, while the other polices boundaries through hate and violence.
raydiatian 4y ago
> So, I’m saying “we’re all children”. If you want to complain about adults playing games and wearing bright colours, you also need to complain about adults using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets. I feel the same, but, this is one of those all or nothing things, and the irony is that our own barbaric origins are holding us back from ‘evolving’ so to speak. We have armies and nuclear armaments because, when it boils down; our species is full of agitated hungry animals, liars and cheats. You’d need to organize a whole species around a single-world order if you ever wanted to stop wars and denuclearize.
- hoseja 4y ago
  "using armies to take resources and businesses blocking others out of markets" is literally "evolving". Natural selection, baby. It's not pretty. Unipolarity isn't the only solution but it's the most apparent one, and also the most terrifyingly totalitarian one.
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    I mean I can really only imagine two broad categories for “solutions” 1) Someone demonstrates a bigger stick. At this point a bigger stick is effective counter-nukes, or perhaps the presence of an alien civilization. 2) What you call unipolarity, although I think both are unipolarity. Mass behavioral transcendence towards a higher form of morality. Maybe achieved via BCI, or improving standard of living, or subtle coercions by AI, or looming threat of climate change prompting transformative cooperative efforts. The latter was omitted for brevity, due to its unlikelihood. Of course it’s not binary, there’s a bit of each in the other.
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    Yeah that's a grim way to look at the world. And there are many who are engaging in that mindset. There will come a time when taking from others because of the unwillingness to be a creative member of society is seen as a curable mental illness.
    - 4y ago
orblivion 4y ago
Axe throwing, IPAs, cosplay outfits? Learn to play golf and drink scotch in your smoking jacket like an adult.
- couchand 4y ago
  You're telling me kids won't chase a tiny ball around a yard or convince each other to consume things that are gross?
  - d3nj4l 4y ago
    They have way more fun doing it, though.
  - sbaiddn 4y ago
    You said it, they're kids! If you can't man up and drink something gross without grimacing, or have the self control to play the most frustrating game in history, you don't have the self-mastery to be near the lever of power.
- sbaiddn 4y ago
  The only creative thing left in IPA brewing is figuring out a marijuana reference that hasn't been done yet.
  - chongli 4y ago
    The real creativity in IPAs is in the different cultivars of hops. That is to say, the real work of making a delicious beverage is done by the plants and the people who grow them tend to be the experts. But this is no different to wine or coffee, two other classes of beverage with endless varieties and variations of characteristics. Just try to ignore the social pretences of the group. All three beverage communities have their extremists who can be quite annoying. But on the other end of the spectrum you’ll find some warm, down-to-earth people who just want to have fun exploring different flavours and textures. That’s really all there is to it!
- MrFantastic 4y ago
strikelaserclaw 4y ago
our richest man is essentially a man child and i believe mores in society are always established by those at the top.
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  How is he a “man child”? Does tweeting funny memes or light trolling make you child? If yes, is that not negated by raising multiple children, founding multiple businesses, and employing hundreds of people?
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    He has incorrect politics and therefore is any negative label one can create.
  - strikelaserclaw 4y ago
    i meant man child as in, he does not prescribe to what an "adult" should behave like according to old societal standards. I'm making no moral judgments, as i too am what most would consider a "man child".
sp332 4y ago
It takes a bit to get going, but the article does go somewhere. Search for the word "corollary" and go from there.
oytis 4y ago
> I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” This depends on the public pressure to do so I believe. As a counterexample one could name German ex-chancellor Angela Merkel. You can hardly name any decisions she carries full responsibility for, her role was mostly to mediate finding a compromise between interests of different parties.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bigodbiel 4y ago
Very true, childish behavior, specially by decision makers, is the bane of society (always has been). Cosplaying by adults should be the least of our worries, and besides it isn't even a recent phenonema (at least not for men): carnival, secret cults, religious ceremonies.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Attending a masquerade was a sign of high society — all the way up to royalty. I’m confused how that’s fundamentally different than cosplay at a convention.
giantg2 4y ago
I made it farther than that, but also stopped. It seemed to go on and on without making it's point. It also seems it missed a big part (unless they talk about it later). Sure, some people might be doing stuff because of hardships and responsibilities (like living at home to save money). But I think there are also those who were not given responsibilities as a child and don't know how to be responsible and act like an adult now that they are one. I think the delays are even evident in our laws (age of many things continues to increase).
gilbetron 4y ago
I wouldn't say I liked the article, but it did have some nuance to it and ended with mostly an opposite conclusion: "The seemingly extreme ways in which adults now play, from Zillennial runway models dressing like kindergarteners, to ‘cuddle parties’, to grownups who choose to marry at Disney resorts – all of it, and more to come – is a reaction to the extreme times in which we find ourselves living. The entire planet may be experiencing its own lost decades now – young and old are suffering. But, as the Japanese experience shows us, embracing our inner child isn’t necessarily a denial of reality. It can pave the way to an entirely new one. The Great Regression isn’t really a regression at all. It’s a sign of resilience in the face of profound adversity. When a child is born, it’s impossible to predict what they might become. Who can say what will emerge from our second childhoods?"
evancox100 4y ago
> It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. That is basically the opposite of what it said.
- shlant 4y ago
  who knew that not reading an article could lead you to the opposite conclusion of what the article is actually about! But a comment must be made on it regardless. On to the next one.
DavidSharff 4y ago
> I gave up after a paragraph or two. It looked like it was going to moan about people trying to have fun and do some self care. I don’t have time for that. The author had quite the opposite conclusion: > The Great Regression isn’t really a regression at all. It’s a sign of resilience in the face of profound adversity. Just as I was fading a few paragraphs in, one of the straw men (IMHO) thrown out caught my eye. How had I not heard of Alexis de Tocqueville's 1835 critique, Democracy in America? If you want to wrestle with someone making a much better form of the argument you (understandably) thought was in the article, check it out: https://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/DETOC/ch4_06.htm https://xroads.virginia.edu/~Hyper/DETOC/ch4_06.htm Honestly, you and Tocqueville are saying something very similar at the core. A polite society has a known exploit: not behaving politely. The exploit is used by those seeking to amass power and influence. The result, he posits: > It would be like the authority of a parent if, like that authority, its object was to prepare men for manhood; but it seeks, on the contrary, to keep them in perpetual childhood: it is well content that the people should rejoice, provided they think of nothing but rejoicing. For their happiness such a government willingly labors, but it chooses to be the sole agent and the only arbiter of that happiness; it provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and subdivides their inheritances: what remains, but to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living?
- the_other 4y ago
  Great reply. Thanks. Will ponder and (at least aim to) put this on my reading list.
  - sekia 4y ago
    It's funny that you are going to spend time on the article after knowing its conclusion (, which is acceptable for you).
mistermann 4y ago
> Over time, I’ve come to see many “senior” or “success” behaviours as refined versions of childhood ones. Political sniping, business competitiveness, standard hierarchical power dynamics, etc. These are all “playground tactics” but grown up. I don’t see (many) “successful” or “leader” type people publicly engaging in so called “adult behaviours” - supporting, sharing, collaborating, taking time out to understand one another’s needs, looking for win-wins. It isn't very hard though to find plenty of people acting out those behaviors, both in their own behavior and in the perception/description of the behavior of their in-group members. Adults in 2022 can be conceptualized as being a lot like children "playing house", except we lack a physical frame of reference representing superior competence and wisdom to humble us, as adults provide for children.
Micoloth 4y ago
I agree with everything you say about the article, except for the idea that aggressiveness (in all its form) has historically been considered more childish that collaboration. I mean, the ability to go to war, together with being a father, has always been considered as the maximum level of adulthood for men, as far as I understand. And to be clear, I’m not even say that latest generations are “less adult”, ie “less aggressive”, because they are somehow “better”. In my view, this is a direct consequence of the fact that in the current society, aggressiveness is simply a less effective strategy, on average. Civilization is too complex now, and there are simply too many people around, for aggressive war-like behaviour to be succesful. Even the most hypercompetitive youth today, say in startups or such, are usually extremely diplomatic persons, that are able to navigate people. “We are all children” because there is simply no more room to be aggressive!
the_other 4y ago
Thanks to all who've encouraged me to read the rest of the article. I will.

boxed 4y ago

> But this time, at this moment in history, things feel different. Things are different, they always are.

willis936 4y ago

I don't agree that escapism is a pure virtue. I do agree that escapism is a reaction to being unhappy with the current state. Escapism is an illusion though. Spend enough time around it with a curious mind and it loses effectiveness. The cure at that point is improving the state.

croon 4y ago
But if you can't enact change (on a macro scale) your choice (or lack of choice) drives you either back to explicit escapism, or into escapism masquerading as action (eg Qanon fiction). The former is less destructive.
pgorczak 4y ago
It could also be a very real consequence of feeling that you can’t or shouldn’t change the state and are therefore not responsible for it. The article doesn’t mention consumerism as a cause but I feel like it plays a role when people are mostly expected to play a passive role and fuel the economy in their spare time.

Brajeshwar 4y ago

I usually remind myself of this quote, “We Never Really Grow Up, We Just Learn How To Act In Public.”

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
One of the most depressing things about growing up is realising the playground bullies don't disappear. They just surround themselves with armies, lawyers, accountants, and propaganda/PR people.

qwerty456127 4y ago

I don't even understand why do people become adult in the first place. Sure, your body changes and you begin to understand some more complex things you previously couldn't (and that's fun), but why change anything else? Why be boring and take bullshit seriously?

raydiatian 4y ago
- weregiraffe 4y ago
  - raydiatian 4y ago
    It was just such an absurd take on things it couldn’t have been anything but a joke.
lioeters 4y ago
I believe it's because the children who manage society and business want their workers and citizens to take their bullshit seriously. So they shaped a false and convenient image of what it means to be an "adult", such as putting work above family and personal life.
- insightcheck 4y ago
  Yes, it's because of incentives. In dating, it's seen as a big negative to be a "manchild" or be dating a manchild; in less inflammatory terms, being seen as immature is seen as negative in the dating world. This is actually quite fair: it's natural for someone in a relationship to prefer a responsible person with self-control (e.g. holds a good job, cleans up, and is financially responsible). A person can take being an "adult" too far, however. They can say that anything that doesn't help you earn money is a waste of time, that anything creative is also a waste of time, and chase status and money. Maybe many of these people got burned at some point for being childish (e.g. they were criticized by a manager or partner and made to feel shame), which explains the behavior. It depends on your goals, but a nice moderate view is to discard with the labels, and aim to be responsible and have self-control, while also being curious and open to creative pursuits. It's also great to enjoy whatever media you like without caring about what others think (whether it's obscure or mainstream).

theGnuMe 4y ago

As long as it is not coupled with toddler tantrums. We all know adults who have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. I’m more concerned about America’s growing body of narcissism.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
Narcissism has always been the unstated official state religion of the US. Which is true of all empires. You don't get to run the world - at least the parts you can access - by having empathy for the people you're exploiting and abusing. One of the popular forms of gaslighting is labelling empathy and concern "childish", "unrealistic", and "unserious."

celeritascelery 4y ago

This reminds me of Rob Henderson piece about why adults care what children think[1]. There seems to be an unwillingness to grow up in modern society. Growing up doesn’t mean you can’t have fun or enjoy kid “toys”. But it does mean taking on responsibility, being dependable, and willing to lead younger generations. [1]https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/i-have-yet-to-hear-a-satisfactory?utm_source=substack https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/i-have-yet-to-hear-a-sa...

thesaint 4y ago

jbirer 4y ago

Infantilization by parents who wanted to keep the kids forever tied and dependent to them.

subjectsigma 4y ago

This article is full of such strange implied absolutisms and "just-so" stories. The silliest and most striking one is probably "Japanese women invented and pioneered emoji". As far as I know the :) symbol was first used by an American man, and there was no specific gendered usage of emoji afterwards.

YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
Emoji and emoticons are not the same.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  Yes, this is technically true, however this is pedantic nitpickery that's besides the point. 1) The article specifically mentions emoji. 2) Emoticons and emoji are extremely related concepts and emoticons influenced the development of emoji. 3) Neither emoji nor emoticons were invented or popularized by women AFAICT. Pointing out that they are not the same thing doesn't mean that emoji or emoticons were invented by women or for women, which is what the article basically said outright. My original point was: if the article gets silly things like "emoji are feminine" completely wrong, why can I trust the other things it says?
- LBJsPNS 4y ago
  Thank dog.
krapp 4y ago
"emoji" is a Japanese term. They were invented by Japanese phone manufacturer DoCoMo, and popularized in the west when implemented by the iPhone.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  Yes, thank you, I can read Wikipedia as well. This does not support the articles statement that emoji and/or emoticons were invented and popularized by women, or that emoji/emoticons are specifically feminine.

daoist_shaman 4y ago

Leaving this here for those who might be interested in the concept of an inner child [0]. I like to think of the inner child in mathematical terms: if I am 40 years old, then it also holds true that I am 6, 10, 16, and 21. At all times, I carry with me the memories (with implicit feelings and attitudes) from each of those distinct years. The person I am today consists of those years strung together. It’s no wonder things like Pokemon and CRTs intrigue me. Six year old me likes them too, and he never left. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_child

mcphage 4y ago
There's a great short on Disney+ based on this idea—it's about a woman who just turned 21 going out to a club with her sister, but really she's just the 1-year-old, 10-year-old, and 16-year-old versions of herself in a trench coat. It's very cute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Something_(2021_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Something_(2021_film)

civilized 4y ago

Could the author skip the mini op-ed about the Great Whatever they have decided Society is going through, and just talk about the actual historical topic that could at least be potentially interesting (Japan in the 90s)?

jl6 4y ago

> In 2020, a Pew study revealed that more than half of 18- to 29-year-old Americans were living with their parents. This is the part I think we all need to be talking about more. It’s a huge root cause of everything else the article discusses. I have come to understand adulthood as being centered on responsibilities, and adult behaviour as handling those responsibilities well. The transition to adulthood is the gradual accumulation of responsibilities, and the cultivation of adult behaviour is the process of learning to handle them. Living with parents is a barrier to that progression. It defers basic responsibilities like funding your own food and shelter. It makes relationships harder to start, and having children of your own seems out of reach. Now, there are other sources of responsibility that are attainable while living in mom’s basement. You can still go out to work. You can still have a responsibility to a cause. And maybe the reason you are still at home is to care for your parents. But for a great many people, seemingly including the article author, living at home is a source of shame - a failure to launch. I can see two ways forward here. Either we manage to address the economic issues that make independent living unaffordable. Or we rediscover multigenerational households as a virtue. There are many advantages to having grandparents, parents and children all together as a unit. If we can destigmatize living with parents, perhaps we can stop treating it as a waiting room for responsibility, and unblock progress towards adulthood.

Sebguer 4y ago
This is a ridiculously American-centric viewpoint.
AlexandrB 4y ago
I don't know if this is the root cause. I moved out at 18 and I still think I'm pretty childish compared to my parents now that I'm over 35. Personally, I blame/credit the internet. Internet culture is perpetually stuck in the 16-25 range and I'm "terminally online". However, I think it's also important to distinguish between a facade of seriousness and actual maturity. I know many older (boomer) adults who, while acting "adult", are manipulative, self-centered, or constantly stirring up drama. Basically, not able to manage their own emotional states. I'll take an emotionally balanced 40 year old cosplayer over that any day and would argue that the cosplayer is more mature despite outward appearances.

jiggywiggy 4y ago

It depends on what we want from our adults. And if we feel like we can demand some sort of contribution. We got to a point where we can get away with the majority of our population being self-centered and living, at least part of their time, in a fantasy world as en escape from getting their life in order. As the article claims it can be "nourishing", but nourishing for what. If you need parents, builders, engineers, philosiphers it won't make that out of them. (im aware at least a bunch of the people who engage in this behaviour are actually contributing massively and this is their way of blowing off steam)

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I think I am growing tired of the entertainment industry seemingly solely catering to the fantasy world though. I've stopped going to see movies since the Superhero Wave began — which means for like the past decade or more. I have to go back to earlier eras in film to find what I would call "adult" films (at the risk of enraging a number of people). Hey, I love LEGO, like building plastic models of space ships, all of that. But I like some vegetables in my diet as well.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Nasrudith 4y ago

The most childish thing is trying to be an adult with absent understanding of why. Horrifying are the people who have kids just to keep up with the Jonses. The parts I see actually worthy of concern of childishness are disregard for how things work and what it takes to achieve them. Relatedly there is a third issue of dependence but it has too many other non-attitude causes. These are my own admitted biases. Childishness is a rather useless conflation of all. Humans are childish compared to great apes. Curiosity and tinkering are also childish but they have brought us the furthest forward.

jdmtheNth 4y ago

Delayed Adulthood; there's no real reason to grow up any more, because young have all the rights but none of the responsibilities of their parents. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-008-x/2007004/10311-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-008-x/2007004/10311-e... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/extended-adolescence-when-25-is-the-new-181/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/extended-adolesce... https://archive.ph/OMwyL https://archive.ph/OMwyL

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I have all the paraphernalia of adulthood - a mortgage, a car, a career, a wife, a child (and hopefully more on the way) - but I have none of the mindset, attitude, or even the body language “adults” used to have. Or at least adults from my father’s generation. I do improv on the weekends. Sometimes I produce music. Edgy, electronic stuff. I like to dance and do strange, funny gestures and voices with my kid. Its a riot when my nephews and nieces are over. I like to dress up in bright, colorful clothes. I work from home and see no point in even pretending to look serious. Lately, I’ve grown my hair out and even had a failed attempt at a proper long rip van winkle beard. Maybe this isn’t what adults are supposed to act like. This is certainly not what my dad acted like when he was my age. But who the hell cares?

kennyadam 4y ago
Edgy.
shlant 4y ago
from my experience with friends and acquaintances over the course of my life, I have found a trend with people who care a lot about being perceived as adults - they are almost all very unhappy and unfulfilled in their lives. Not sure if this mirrors anyone else's observations. It seems a lot of people believe the need to be responsible is inseparable from looking like you fit into a narrow definition of what is perceived as responsible. But maybe I am just observing the result of living your life being concerned about how you look in general and not specifically about adult-ness.
jeroenhd 4y ago
What I think happened is that having fun in your free time is no longer considered peculiar and strange. People have built model railways for decades at least, but the people who had hobbies like that used to be considered strange recluses with no social life. I think you were "supposed" to do a lot more group things, and group things come with pressure to fit in. The same was true in many work environments, where suits and uniforms made an office floor a homogenized blob of business workforce, whereas clothing standards have gone down in terms of "professionality" since at least the late 80s. These days, you can do your own thing, and people are generally cool with that as long as you don't bother them with your hobbies. There's less judging, less expectations to fit the norm, and more self-expression in a lot of "modern" behaviour. Certain people in the older generation seem to lament this; "back in my day, we didn't play dress up and go to conventions" and other such nonsense. I don't know if it's inability to let other people have fun or envy of the freedoms (young) adults have these days, but it feels like the main focus of their complaint seems all about how modern things weren't considered proper and right back when they were young, rather than provide some reason why people shouldn't do what they do for fun. Another change is the internet: my dad didn't have the internet when he was young so many hobbies he developed were based on social activities (sports and such) and collecting (records, CDs, etc.); you were very unlikely to run into someone who was as much into painting tiny figurines as you are online. I also think childhood media plays a role: kids' shows have moved away from random violence towards a more constructive, positive role. The message of "just be yourself and you can do anything you want" that children's media repeated has seeped into kids of yesteryear, just like many shows about accepting people for who they are and being kind to another is changing the way kids act these days. Compare that to the old magazines from the 50s and 60s where children were told how to prepare for adulthood, how to be a good husband/wife, it was all so dang militaristic! None of this is universal, of course; there are always people who will oppose the mainstream, who will do their own thing, or who will cling to old, outdated norms. However, you can find many discussions online about how kids are more caring towards each other than before, and you can find many news articles about "millenials" doing all kinds of things "wrong", written by angry old people who failed to keep up with the world. Your last sentence is exactly right: who the hell cares? That's what makes the millennials different from the generation before it, and I'm sure their grandchildren will bring their own unique twist to society!

user_named 4y ago

Adults are children

jononomo 4y ago

I've been noticing this for at least a decade now: people don't seem to grow up anymore. When I think of my grandfathers, who were born in 1898 and 1905, respectively, I remember serious men. They were good-humored, but they were adults and they carried their weight in the world. My father, born in 1935, also has that seriousness. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it is that men under 70 lack now, but it is definitely something important.

Phrenzy 4y ago
You mention that men under 70 lack a certain something. Are you sure it isn't that men have gained something they didn't have in the past? I have thought a lot about how the human condition has changed over the years. I feel the most important change is modern human's ability to think in the abstract. If you were to ask a pre-modern human to group a chicken, a crow, a stick, and a tree. They might group the chicken and the stick together because they would use the stick to kill the chicken and make a meal. Whereas a modern human would most likely group the chicken and crow, and the stick and tree together. The tendency to think abstractly has exploded over the last hundred years or so, and it has fundamentally changed how we see and react to the world. A great explanation of this comes from the Ted-talk of James Flynn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI
hotpotamus 4y ago
This comment reminded me of the 1997 episode of The Simpsons, "Homer's Phobia", the adults thought the best way to ensure Bart would grow up to be a proper man was to send him off to war to kill someone, but lacking a war they go hunting so he can kill a deer instead.
- jononomo 4y ago
  One of my grandfather's did serve in World War One.
Dracophoenix 4y ago
>> My father, born in 1935, also has that seriousness. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it is that men under 70 lack now, but it is definitely something important. "Seriousness" or calcified melancholy?

keiferski 4y ago

I think this actually a serious issue and I’m disappointed that the comments are mostly defensive. If I had to pick two things that have led to adults acting like children, it would be: - the lack of any real “coming of age” ritual in Western culture. The closest we get is going to college, which has developed into something deliberately removed from adult reality - the slow removal of cultural rules that indicated a space was to be taken seriously. For example, wearing a suit and caring about your appearance, not using swear words in public, keeping details of your private life to yourself, and so on. I read somewhere that memes are the artform of the contemporary Zeitgeist, which makes a ton of sense to me. Memes are funny but ultimately just easy, fast-food-style culture. They would not be the predominant art form in a society capable of building something more complex, spiritual, and long-term, like a medieval cathedral or an Italian Renaissance sculpture.

overthemoon 4y ago
I too am disappointed in the defensiveness. It's a completely valid point, and using Japan as a precursor in this narrative was really enlightening, I think. There are a million causes and effects one could talk about here, supporting all manner of ideologies, and of course I've got my own. But that people are increasingly preoccupied with meaningless, child-like consumption, of fun over joy, is actually a problem. I say this as a big nerd who likes games and comics and so forth, which I think is where some of the defensiveness comes in. I don't think the problem is located in liking comics. It's in making comics your identity. It's adopting the identity of a fan, a consumer, of making that your outward image, that makes people more childish and less trustworthy, less serious, and easier to control.
mistermann 4y ago
Not the predominant art form maybe, but I think they could have fundamental importance to a sophisticated culture. A culture that takes memes seriously, that can publicly acknowledge and defend/reconcile itself with truths that memes can so often reveal and illustrate so brutally efficiently (at times, not always) may be much more powerful than one that (often) dismisses them due to triviality / "fake news", or (~secretly) uses them to dismiss inconvenient facts (or, simply doesn't really take them seriously, etc). Memes, the non-visual ideas kind (inaccurate generalizations, "fact"oids, figures of speech, cognitive norms if you don't mind stretching the definition a bit, etc) play a huge role in human communication, but this is so fundamental that it seems to be sub-perceptual and thus evades our attention and consideration.

jononomo 4y ago

I joined a startup several years ago and worked with a bunch of people in their 20s who were Harry Potter obsessives. I just couldn't believe it. To this day I cringe thinking about them.

smeej 4y ago

I think this may be because this is the first generation in human history to have endless distraction in our pockets, so that's become our "escape of least resistance." Any time we feel overwhelmed, we turn to diversion and distraction. Pre-world-wide-web-in-your-pocket, what were your options when you needed a break from your regular life? There were definitely unhealthy ones, like drinking to excess, but even that often took place around other people, and it wasn't as easily available as doomscrolling. It's not half as easy to pull out your flask when you're on the train or in an elevator or standing in line at Chipotle for more than 3 minutes and become uncomfortable. We're the first generation that never has to stand still and be uncomfortable, basically ever. If something is emotionally difficult, we can run from it. Maybe this stunts us. Maybe it keeps us from gaining the perspective that the discomfort normally either resolves on its own, relatively quickly and in a positive way (i.e., the line quickly leads to lunch), or it inspires action, which might lead us to prove our own efficacy to ourselves when we realize we can do something to address the situation rather than just running away. Adulthood is characterized by having the perspective that enables us to do unpleasant things in the short-term for the sake of long-term benefits. But if we continue not to need to face even the mild tedium of standing in a line without distraction, how are we ever going to convince ourselves of the benefits of doing anything we don't immediately want to do?

jononomo 4y ago

One of the biggest childishness-in-adulthood trends I've noticed is people supporting Trump. I could see a fourth-grader falling for Trump's schtick, maybe even a seventh-grader, but beyond that age supporting Trump is just a sign that you have not matured.

mistermann 4y ago
I think it's worth considering whether there are numerous levels to this phenomenon, and that you yourself are on one of those levels (as we all are)...and perhaps not the highest one (of which there may be no such thing, in fact).
- jononomo 4y ago
  Why would that be worth considering?
  - mistermann 4y ago
    A motivation would be to increase the likelihood of one's perceptions of what's going on aligning with what is actually going on (which is what Trump supporters are often criticized for). Whether this qualifies for being worth it is largely (but not necessarily entirely) a subjective matter.
    - jononomo 4y ago
      You’re begging the question
      - mistermann 4y ago
        Begging the question: Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion. Arguments that beg the question work to obscure the actual points in controversy and can be looked at as a form of circular reasoning. This is false, because I have not actually done any such thing (it is not contained in my text, or the ideas behind my text). In fact, what physically/objectively occurred is that I explicitly did the opposite: "I think it's worth considering whether..."). I might respond by saying that you are engaging in rhetoric: Rhetoric: language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect on its audience, but often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content. ...but then, this would be to assume conscious (and perhaps nefarious) intent. Rather, I suspect most likely what is happening is that you are (or, something is) engaging in perception. Perception: a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression. What do you think about this perspective?

jononomo 4y ago

There used to be an "adult movie" industry that was not porn, but was just... sophisticated movies that could be appreciated by an adult audience. But now it feels to me like 30 years after I outgrew comic books the movie industry is trying to get me back into comic books.

woopwoop 4y ago

I feel like the phenomenon of people in their twenties living with their parents should only be attributed to deep cultural currents after we're 100% sure that it's not the exploding cost of housing in the most productive, well-paying metropolitan areas (which also happen to be the most fun places for a young adult to live).

ilikerashers 4y ago

I wonder if this ties into the quiet quitting and anti-work sentiment we're seeing post COVID too. People are stressed, wages lower than we deserve and no sign of changing, competition is now global with benefits going to a fraction of society, economic news which just gets darker. I don't blame people for regressing and "lying flat". My escape is watching people fishing and diving on deserted Indonesian islands on YT. Then I remember I have to cover my kid's £100 per day nursery and private school fees..... I need a heavy blanket.

nine_zeros 4y ago
People are working too hard for too little gain. It's a mass burnout all over the society. And now, everyone will have to face another boom bust cycle. At some point, people just stop caring. The society wasn't working for them anyway. It might as well collapse.
- ilikerashers 4y ago
  Doesn't seem like it collapses anymore. We have MMT and QE so we all keep going. Perhaps this is the peak-capitalism environment. People stop caring about striving.

uhtred 4y ago

But behaving like a grown up is such a drag, man

ElfinTrousers 4y ago

> But this time, at this moment in history, things feel different. Coincidentally, it is this time, at this moment in history, that the author of this article is starting to get old.

scotty79 4y ago

Because adults are just tall children. With increasing amount of psychological scarring. Maybe modern adults just suffer small enough amount of scarring that their actual child selves are still recognizable under that when compared to older generations.

zephrx1111 4y ago

Cannot agree. For neoteny on human, Peter Diamandis’ Abundance might give a better attribution.

carapace 4y ago

Adulthood is essentially a learned response to a dangerous and traumatic environment. Extended childhood is the essence of humanity (as contrasted with animals.) Neoteny - "also called juvenilization,[5] is the delaying or slowing of the physiological, or somatic, development of an organism, typically an animal. Neoteny is found in modern humans compared to other primates." > Neoteny is seen in domesticated animals such as dogs and mice.[25] This is because there are more resources available, less competition for those resources, and with the lowered competition the animals expend less energy obtaining those resources. This allows them to mature and reproduce more quickly than their wild counterparts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny The point of being human is to change the environment to permit a more relaxed and enjoyable life. What we call "adulthood" is the adjustment to a harsh reality, but that reality is not immutable. Science and technology (developed by our "neotenous" brains) gives us the leverage to literally remake the world in our image.

theGnuMe 4y ago

On a related topic I wonder if the Japanese phenomena of Hikikomori is a result of small living spaces and a lack of economic opportunity that fails to nurture independence. In the US we also have "failure to launch" as a close analog.