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>The ⌘ symbol (the "looped square") was chosen by Susan Kare after Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the menu system (where the keyboard shor

>The ⌘ symbol (the "looped square") was chosen by Susan Kare after Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the menu system (where the keyboard shortcuts are displayed) would be an over-use of the logo Never thought about over-use of the logo, but Jobs did have a good point. I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a bit ugly and out of place.

joeframbach 4y ago
Sure, but I wish they would at least be consistent. My 2015 external keyboard has keys for "control", "alt/option", and "command ⌘". I'll find documentation online that says "press the ⌥ key" and I'm like, what the hell is that?
asveikau 4y ago
Important to note the relationship between Microsoft and PC OEMs. The same time period that introduced the Windows key (late 90s) was also one in which some (Be Inc.?) accused Microsoft of having anticompetitive practices in their contracts with OEMs, such as charging for Windows licenses even if a machine was not pre installed with Windows. Forcing adoption of the Windows key seems right in line with that. I remember Linux advocates being very irritated by the sudden introduction of that key. If you got a PC in 1996, no windows logo on the keyboard. By 1998 they all had it.
xav_authentique 4y ago
Susan Kare talked about the backstory in this presentation: https://vimeo.com/97583369#t=493s https://vimeo.com/97583369#t=493s
- Cockbrand 4y ago
  A lot more backstories to many design, technical and political aspects of early Macintosh development can be found at https://www.folklore.org/ https://www.folklore.org/ - it's a real treasure trove for people interested in how the Mac came to be.
  - pmelendez 4y ago
    I agree, and it is one of those things where buying the printed version makes so much sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_in_the_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_in_the_Valley
    - Cockbrand 4y ago
      TIL there's a book on this, which I didn't know - thanks for the heads up!
N19PEDL2 4y ago
I agree. I'd like to find a keyboard with Tux instead of the Windows logo for my Linux desktop.
- blackoil 4y ago
  If your have mechanical keyboard you can buy a key cap. Maybe similar exist for laptops.
- mro_name 4y ago
  Raspberry Pies have their mascot-fruit on that key.
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  In the early 2000s, I had a buckling-spring keyboard with Tux instead of the Windows logo.
- vt240 4y ago
  You can use the Sun Type 7 USB keyboard which has a diamond symbol super key. Under Windows it functions as the Win key. Plus it has application keys on the left had side.
aliqot 4y ago
I wish we didnt have a super button and just stuck to CTRL ALT SHIFT. Also Menu key is the most worthless key ever aside from SysRq.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Empty space on 101 keyboard looks weird in retrospect. It's natural to have a key there.
- mgaunard 4y ago
  how do you obtain a context menu without the menu key? are you one of those weirdos who use a mouse?
  - nyanpasu64 4y ago
    Shift+F10 works on Windows and Linux GTK (not Qt) apps, but it's not self-documenting unlike the menu key. Also bring back keyboards with external media keys that don't require holding Fn to either change volume and tracks, or press F# key shortcuts. Also please give me an EC firmware which maps top-row keys to media keys when pressed alone (for convenience), and to F# keys when either Fn or any other modifier keys are held (so you don't need to add an extra key to complex modifier chords relative to on desktops).
  - rhymeshot 4y ago
    On Windows it's Shift+F10
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- sph 4y ago
  Super is fine, the convention is wrong. I like Apple using Alt/Option/Meta as "alternative option" I don't like Apple applications using Super/Windows/Looped Square for their own shortcuts. On my Linux workstation I standardise to: - Super for all window operations. Quit, resize, move to workspace. - Super+alt for system wide action: lock, suspend, reboot. - Hyper (super+ctrl+alt+shift because it's easily accessible on my keyboard) for global shortcuts such as mute microphone. And Ctrl and Alt are reserved for applications themselves. I like Emacs approach: Ctrl is (mostly) the first layer, and Alt/Meta tends to work on semantic blocks: words, lines, sentences, etc. Shift often means Option, i.e. alternative to the base shortcut.
jxramos 4y ago
The windows key is very mnemonic in nature because window correlates to display and to an app window from which there are multiple display/window moving keyboard shortcuts tied to that magic button https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-have-a-keyboard-shortcut-for-moving-an-individual-window-to-another-m https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-... Window+Right --> move this window to the right of the display, to the second monitor if repeated
- thorin 4y ago
  Thanks for that one, I use the Windows shortcut keys, but hadn't noticed that but now I have lots of monitor space it will be quite useful!
  - notRobot 4y ago
    Ctrl + win + left/right to switch desktops Win + left/right/up/down to move around windows Win + tab for an overview of all windows and desktops
  - asdajksah2123 4y ago
    Windows is a really good OS to manage windows. The Gnome and friends defaults puts Linux in 2nd place IMO. However, like nearly everything Linux, if you're willing to put in a little bit of effort and/or go down more esoteric routes (i3 is clearly the most efficient I've ever been...the problem is that I'm forced to use macOS and Windows as well, and switching from i3 to the others is really difficult) it can easily be the best. macOS seems the weakest. There are utilities that can equal functionality from the other OSes, but even then it feels unnatural (a lot of animations in nearly everything doesn't help)
  - alisonatwork 4y ago
    Windows key is super-useful on Windows, and it gets better every version. Aside from the Win+Arrow combinations, which are probably among the most useful, other ones that I use daily are Win+. to bring up emoji keyboard, Win+V to bring up clipboard history, Win+T to navigate the quicklaunch/taskbar apps and (less frequently) Win+Plus and Win+Minus to zoom the display. There are some new settings shortcuts too like Win+A for mini-settings (like Android swipe from top), Win+I for proper settings and Win+P for projector settings. Plus there are all the old keypresses that have been around forever like Win+R run, Win+L lock workstation, Win+M minimize everything, Win+D for show desktop toggle, Win+S for search (used to be Win+F/find), Win+E explore... I think nowadays I use Windows button as much as I do Control and Shift. Alt is less useful since applications stopped having menus, but AltGr is great for international input. I suppose Win+Space is important to know too, if you switch keyboards a lot (I do).
hericium 4y ago
> I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a bit ugly and out of place. Absurdly out of place when using different OS.
- ema 4y ago
  I use it as the modifier key for my window manager shortcuts so I just think of it as the lowercase w windows key and not the uppercase W Windows key and it's fine.
  - dijit 4y ago
    it's very clearly an operating system logo though, it's like if you had the Pepsi logo on your water dispenser on your fridge. Would look weird and out of place. EDIT: I'm being downvoted and I'm note sure why, perhaps a lot of the newer folks aren't aware of what it used to look like; it was very clearly "Windows the operating system": https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg
    - f1shy 4y ago
      I hate when people downvote without saying why... maybe because there is no reason except: "I do not like your opinion, I have no better one, but I do not like yours" This is yet another example. I see no wrong in this comment. I would like that HN changes something about it.
      - electroly 4y ago
        You (not OP) are being downvoted because your post has no content other than complaining about post votes, and that's in the HN guidelines as something not to do. > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. OP's comment hasn't been meaningfully downvoted; it's still black text. Yours has, though.
    - Steltek 4y ago
      Windows keyboards are designed around the Windows OS so they feature that logo? I have an Ethernet adapter with an Apple logo on it but it's plugged into a Dell running Linux. Is that absurdly out of place? I just don't understand this thread at all.
omegabravo 4y ago
I don't find it that similar. Windows key is rarely (never?) used as a modifier at the application level. You'd never see it as a keyboard shortcut in menus likes you do with command. Windows key shortcuts are all (I think) operating system shortcuts. Super+R, Super+X, Super+right arrow. Command is more analogous to alt or control.
- viridian 4y ago
  Yeah, most typically (but not always) with cross platform stuff: - windows/linux win/super key = apple ctrl key, OS level commands - windows/linux ctrl = apple cmd key, primary application level commands - windows/linux alt = apple option, secondary application level commands - shift modifiers are almost always interoperational
- nkrisc 4y ago
  I have to agree with you (and Jobs) here. The Windows key is related to Windows functions. I think using the Windows logo I this instance is particularly apt. As you pointed out, the Command key is really a very generic key and has no particular affinity to Apple or the OS itself. I haven’t used Windows 11 yet, but the Windows key has become much more associated with premier Windows features beyond initially the start menu. Windows+G opens the integrated gaming experience (if you’ve enabled it, I believe) and even Windows+tab gives you a similar, but more modern experience over alt+tab. Windows+v gives you an expanded clipboard view and I think this may be where the line begins to blur a bit, but it’s still the improved Windows version of the paste command that is essentially the same across most OSes. It has its utilitarian uses such as window management with Windows+arrow key, but that of course is an OS level action.
- sorenjan 4y ago
  PowerToys adds a bunch of new shortcuts using the Windows key, and ConEmu uses it for several shortcuts as well. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/ https://conemu.github.io/en/KeyboardShortcuts.html https://conemu.github.io/en/KeyboardShortcuts.html
- fknorangesite 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
loevborg 4y ago
Out of place and an example of Microsoft's bad taste
wgx 4y ago
I'm old enough to remember my Mac G5 keyboard which still sported an Apple logo on the Command key before they did away with it for `cmd` instead. https://www.google.com/search?q=mac+g5+keyboard&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=mac+g5+keyboard&tbm=isch
- dwighttk 4y ago
  back when left command and right command occasionally had different functions, one had an unfilled apple and one a filled-in apple...
  - dwighttk 4y ago
    hmm... I must be misremembering... this says the filled-in apple was on the equivalent of the alt key https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-apple-closed-apple.html https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-app...
hericium 4y ago
> > Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the menu system (...) would be an over-use of the logo I actually find those Apple bumper stickers to be logo over-use. Especially when a car has more than one.
- nikau 4y ago
  About 10-15 years ago I don't think there was a single VW golf around here without a white apple silhouette sticker on it
mrzool 4y ago
From what I understand Jobs was probably fine with using the Apple logo on the physical key, the problem was rather displaying the logo everywhere in the menus, where the shortcuts are displayed. That would have been way too much indeed.
- herrvogel- 4y ago
  There is this great talk[0] by Susan Kare. At 14:30 she talks about this and explains how the ⌘ came to be. [0] https://vimeo.com/151277875 https://vimeo.com/151277875
  - gonehome 4y ago
    She also has a personal website where she still makes and sells great stuff! https://kareprints.com/ https://kareprints.com/
    - warent 4y ago
      Amazing, thank you! just bought her hand painted :D cant wait to have in the office https://kareprints.com/products/hand-painted-japanese-woodcut https://kareprints.com/products/hand-painted-japanese-woodcu...
  - codetrotter 4y ago
    Susan Kare is also the designer of Dogcow btw :D https://512pixels.net/dogcow/ https://512pixels.net/dogcow/
    - OnlyMortal 4y ago
      “Moof”
- mitchdoogle 4y ago
  Most likely it would have been abbreviated as Apl, similar to how the windows key is Win when shown in menus of keyboard shortcuts
Infernal 4y ago
I seem to recall that up to 2012 or so, the apple logo was printed alongside the looped square on the physical key. We used to refer to it as the “apple key” (2000s CS program anecdote) and I recall it taking a while to adjust to referring to it as the command key. EDIT: now that I follow the link I see this information is in the first line. Oh well!
- marssaxman 4y ago
  That was a later change. The original Macintosh keyboards showed only the Command symbol, and we called it the "command key". The Apple logo did not show up until years later, when Apple introduced the ADB keyboards, designed to be compatible with both the Macintosh line and the Apple IIgs; their command keys showed both the cloverleaf symbol, used on the Macintosh, and the Apple logo, which had been the convention for Apple II keyboards.

joeframbach 4y ago

Sure, but I wish they would at least be consistent. My 2015 external keyboard has keys for "control", "alt/option", and "command ⌘". I'll find documentation online that says "press the ⌥ key" and I'm like, what the hell is that?

asveikau 4y ago

Important to note the relationship between Microsoft and PC OEMs. The same time period that introduced the Windows key (late 90s) was also one in which some (Be Inc.?) accused Microsoft of having anticompetitive practices in their contracts with OEMs, such as charging for Windows licenses even if a machine was not pre installed with Windows. Forcing adoption of the Windows key seems right in line with that. I remember Linux advocates being very irritated by the sudden introduction of that key. If you got a PC in 1996, no windows logo on the keyboard. By 1998 they all had it.

xav_authentique 4y ago

Susan Kare talked about the backstory in this presentation: https://vimeo.com/97583369#t=493s https://vimeo.com/97583369#t=493s

Cockbrand 4y ago
A lot more backstories to many design, technical and political aspects of early Macintosh development can be found at https://www.folklore.org/ https://www.folklore.org/ - it's a real treasure trove for people interested in how the Mac came to be.
- pmelendez 4y ago
  I agree, and it is one of those things where buying the printed version makes so much sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_in_the_Valley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_in_the_Valley
  - Cockbrand 4y ago
    TIL there's a book on this, which I didn't know - thanks for the heads up!

N19PEDL2 4y ago

I agree. I'd like to find a keyboard with Tux instead of the Windows logo for my Linux desktop.

blackoil 4y ago
If your have mechanical keyboard you can buy a key cap. Maybe similar exist for laptops.
mro_name 4y ago
Raspberry Pies have their mascot-fruit on that key.
NoGravitas 4y ago
In the early 2000s, I had a buckling-spring keyboard with Tux instead of the Windows logo.
vt240 4y ago
You can use the Sun Type 7 USB keyboard which has a diamond symbol super key. Under Windows it functions as the Win key. Plus it has application keys on the left had side.

aliqot 4y ago

I wish we didnt have a super button and just stuck to CTRL ALT SHIFT. Also Menu key is the most worthless key ever aside from SysRq.

fomine3 4y ago
Empty space on 101 keyboard looks weird in retrospect. It's natural to have a key there.
mgaunard 4y ago
how do you obtain a context menu without the menu key? are you one of those weirdos who use a mouse?
- nyanpasu64 4y ago
  Shift+F10 works on Windows and Linux GTK (not Qt) apps, but it's not self-documenting unlike the menu key. Also bring back keyboards with external media keys that don't require holding Fn to either change volume and tracks, or press F# key shortcuts. Also please give me an EC firmware which maps top-row keys to media keys when pressed alone (for convenience), and to F# keys when either Fn or any other modifier keys are held (so you don't need to add an extra key to complex modifier chords relative to on desktops).
- rhymeshot 4y ago
  On Windows it's Shift+F10
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sph 4y ago
Super is fine, the convention is wrong. I like Apple using Alt/Option/Meta as "alternative option" I don't like Apple applications using Super/Windows/Looped Square for their own shortcuts. On my Linux workstation I standardise to: - Super for all window operations. Quit, resize, move to workspace. - Super+alt for system wide action: lock, suspend, reboot. - Hyper (super+ctrl+alt+shift because it's easily accessible on my keyboard) for global shortcuts such as mute microphone. And Ctrl and Alt are reserved for applications themselves. I like Emacs approach: Ctrl is (mostly) the first layer, and Alt/Meta tends to work on semantic blocks: words, lines, sentences, etc. Shift often means Option, i.e. alternative to the base shortcut.

jxramos 4y ago

The windows key is very mnemonic in nature because window correlates to display and to an app window from which there are multiple display/window moving keyboard shortcuts tied to that magic button https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-have-a-keyboard-shortcut-for-moving-an-individual-window-to-another-m https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/367858/does-macos-... Window+Right --> move this window to the right of the display, to the second monitor if repeated

thorin 4y ago
Thanks for that one, I use the Windows shortcut keys, but hadn't noticed that but now I have lots of monitor space it will be quite useful!
- notRobot 4y ago
  Ctrl + win + left/right to switch desktops Win + left/right/up/down to move around windows Win + tab for an overview of all windows and desktops
- asdajksah2123 4y ago
  Windows is a really good OS to manage windows. The Gnome and friends defaults puts Linux in 2nd place IMO. However, like nearly everything Linux, if you're willing to put in a little bit of effort and/or go down more esoteric routes (i3 is clearly the most efficient I've ever been...the problem is that I'm forced to use macOS and Windows as well, and switching from i3 to the others is really difficult) it can easily be the best. macOS seems the weakest. There are utilities that can equal functionality from the other OSes, but even then it feels unnatural (a lot of animations in nearly everything doesn't help)
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  Windows key is super-useful on Windows, and it gets better every version. Aside from the Win+Arrow combinations, which are probably among the most useful, other ones that I use daily are Win+. to bring up emoji keyboard, Win+V to bring up clipboard history, Win+T to navigate the quicklaunch/taskbar apps and (less frequently) Win+Plus and Win+Minus to zoom the display. There are some new settings shortcuts too like Win+A for mini-settings (like Android swipe from top), Win+I for proper settings and Win+P for projector settings. Plus there are all the old keypresses that have been around forever like Win+R run, Win+L lock workstation, Win+M minimize everything, Win+D for show desktop toggle, Win+S for search (used to be Win+F/find), Win+E explore... I think nowadays I use Windows button as much as I do Control and Shift. Alt is less useful since applications stopped having menus, but AltGr is great for international input. I suppose Win+Space is important to know too, if you switch keyboards a lot (I do).

hericium 4y ago

> I always felt that Windows key on keyboards felt a bit ugly and out of place. Absurdly out of place when using different OS.

ema 4y ago
I use it as the modifier key for my window manager shortcuts so I just think of it as the lowercase w windows key and not the uppercase W Windows key and it's fine.
- dijit 4y ago
  it's very clearly an operating system logo though, it's like if you had the Pepsi logo on your water dispenser on your fridge. Would look weird and out of place. EDIT: I'm being downvoted and I'm note sure why, perhaps a lot of the newer folks aren't aware of what it used to look like; it was very clearly "Windows the operating system": https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg https://i.redd.it/fnligi5oa0h51.jpg
  - f1shy 4y ago
    I hate when people downvote without saying why... maybe because there is no reason except: "I do not like your opinion, I have no better one, but I do not like yours" This is yet another example. I see no wrong in this comment. I would like that HN changes something about it.
    - electroly 4y ago
      You (not OP) are being downvoted because your post has no content other than complaining about post votes, and that's in the HN guidelines as something not to do. > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. OP's comment hasn't been meaningfully downvoted; it's still black text. Yours has, though.
  - Steltek 4y ago
    Windows keyboards are designed around the Windows OS so they feature that logo? I have an Ethernet adapter with an Apple logo on it but it's plugged into a Dell running Linux. Is that absurdly out of place? I just don't understand this thread at all.

omegabravo 4y ago

I don't find it that similar. Windows key is rarely (never?) used as a modifier at the application level. You'd never see it as a keyboard shortcut in menus likes you do with command. Windows key shortcuts are all (I think) operating system shortcuts. Super+R, Super+X, Super+right arrow. Command is more analogous to alt or control.

viridian 4y ago
Yeah, most typically (but not always) with cross platform stuff: - windows/linux win/super key = apple ctrl key, OS level commands - windows/linux ctrl = apple cmd key, primary application level commands - windows/linux alt = apple option, secondary application level commands - shift modifiers are almost always interoperational
nkrisc 4y ago
I have to agree with you (and Jobs) here. The Windows key is related to Windows functions. I think using the Windows logo I this instance is particularly apt. As you pointed out, the Command key is really a very generic key and has no particular affinity to Apple or the OS itself. I haven’t used Windows 11 yet, but the Windows key has become much more associated with premier Windows features beyond initially the start menu. Windows+G opens the integrated gaming experience (if you’ve enabled it, I believe) and even Windows+tab gives you a similar, but more modern experience over alt+tab. Windows+v gives you an expanded clipboard view and I think this may be where the line begins to blur a bit, but it’s still the improved Windows version of the paste command that is essentially the same across most OSes. It has its utilitarian uses such as window management with Windows+arrow key, but that of course is an OS level action.
sorenjan 4y ago
PowerToys adds a bunch of new shortcuts using the Windows key, and ConEmu uses it for several shortcuts as well. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/powertoys/ https://conemu.github.io/en/KeyboardShortcuts.html https://conemu.github.io/en/KeyboardShortcuts.html
fknorangesite 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

loevborg 4y ago

Out of place and an example of Microsoft's bad taste

wgx 4y ago

I'm old enough to remember my Mac G5 keyboard which still sported an Apple logo on the Command key before they did away with it for `cmd` instead. https://www.google.com/search?q=mac+g5+keyboard&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=mac+g5+keyboard&tbm=isch

dwighttk 4y ago
back when left command and right command occasionally had different functions, one had an unfilled apple and one a filled-in apple...
- dwighttk 4y ago
  hmm... I must be misremembering... this says the filled-in apple was on the equivalent of the alt key https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-apple-closed-apple.html https://www.macworld.com/article/224807/think-retro-open-app...

hericium 4y ago

> > Steve Jobs decided that the use of the Apple logo in the menu system (...) would be an over-use of the logo I actually find those Apple bumper stickers to be logo over-use. Especially when a car has more than one.

nikau 4y ago
About 10-15 years ago I don't think there was a single VW golf around here without a white apple silhouette sticker on it

mrzool 4y ago

From what I understand Jobs was probably fine with using the Apple logo on the physical key, the problem was rather displaying the logo everywhere in the menus, where the shortcuts are displayed. That would have been way too much indeed.

herrvogel- 4y ago
There is this great talk[0] by Susan Kare. At 14:30 she talks about this and explains how the ⌘ came to be. [0] https://vimeo.com/151277875 https://vimeo.com/151277875
- gonehome 4y ago
  She also has a personal website where she still makes and sells great stuff! https://kareprints.com/ https://kareprints.com/
  - warent 4y ago
    Amazing, thank you! just bought her hand painted :D cant wait to have in the office https://kareprints.com/products/hand-painted-japanese-woodcut https://kareprints.com/products/hand-painted-japanese-woodcu...
- codetrotter 4y ago
  Susan Kare is also the designer of Dogcow btw :D https://512pixels.net/dogcow/ https://512pixels.net/dogcow/
  - OnlyMortal 4y ago
    “Moof”
mitchdoogle 4y ago
Most likely it would have been abbreviated as Apl, similar to how the windows key is Win when shown in menus of keyboard shortcuts

Infernal 4y ago

I seem to recall that up to 2012 or so, the apple logo was printed alongside the looped square on the physical key. We used to refer to it as the “apple key” (2000s CS program anecdote) and I recall it taking a while to adjust to referring to it as the command key. EDIT: now that I follow the link I see this information is in the first line. Oh well!

marssaxman 4y ago
That was a later change. The original Macintosh keyboards showed only the Command symbol, and we called it the "command key". The Apple logo did not show up until years later, when Apple introduced the ADB keyboards, designed to be compatible with both the Macintosh line and the Apple IIgs; their command keys showed both the cloverleaf symbol, used on the Macintosh, and the Apple logo, which had been the convention for Apple II keyboards.