15 ms·

> It's sad to me how successful people have been sanitizing the internet. It's far more complicated than that and looking at the complicated details is useful

by mfer 4y ago

> It's sad to me how successful people have been sanitizing the internet. It's far more complicated than that and looking at the complicated details is useful to understand the bigger picture. Here are some examples... 1. It's now that far more things are on the Internet than there used to be. Some things that used to be huge are now a smaller percentage in an immensely larger space. In some cases they are bigger now than they used to be. 2. Sex slaves and porn are a thing and a problem. There's both more of it and more awareness of it. In many places there are laws about this that companies who process money have to take in to account. 3. Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild. If more things were more easily accessible than the culture around screens and handling that with kids will need to change. Kids are ready for different things at different ages and the way they view things during their formative years impacts the way they view and treat others. I use these to just illustrate that it's more than money, power, and control by the wealthy. Sometimes (like in the case of #2) it's about the most vulnerable.

lupire 4y ago
> Sex slaves and porn are a thing and a problem. They are two different things. Did you mean "sex slaves in porn"? Also, any kind of slave is a problem. You don't need to qualify it.
- boppo1 4y ago
  I think he meant human trafficking. There's a lot of videos out there of women under duress.
Griffinsauce 4y ago
> "About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them." This is on parents (and how they are educated around parenthood) IMO. Notice the comment about Reddit, even with all the sanitization it's ridiculously easy to find very hardcore (in every sense of the word) stuff. In the same way that you hold hands when you walk past a busy street, you cannot expect the internet to be a safe place. As a parent you have the responsibility here.
- Damogran6 4y ago
  I felt it was better to teach them that 'there's stuff out there you can't unsee', because I realized they were one sleepover away from getting around any filter I could put in front of them.
  - Griffinsauce 4y ago
    Yes, great, this is in line with my point. I'm not saying you should take control of the internet but you are responsible for how they interact with it.
  - Cr4shMyCar 4y ago
    It's like the infinite monkey theorem, but faster. Give a bunch of tweens long enough and they'll find their way around any internet filter.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    This is how it worked for us. Parents did what they could to block PC access, but me and my brother managed to break them all to do what kids do online. At certain point, you have to actually talk with your kids even if it is the kind of 'smoke that cigar until you are sick' approach. Naturally, my dad being my dad, took a different tack. He just picked the PC and took it to his shop. Different times. Needless to say, I don't think I will be able to try the same approach.
- watwut 4y ago
  You don't hold 10 years old hands when crossing the street. At that age, they are going through streets alone when they go to scool or club or visit friends.
  - jacobr1 4y ago
    > At that age, they are going through streets alone when they go to scool or club or visit friends. In the united states, this stopped being socially acceptable sometime time in the past 20 years. Letting your kids walk to school before high-school (13/14) is considered child abuse by many. Not everywhere, not everyone. But there has been a huge shift in views around what kind of out-of-the-home-unsupervised activity is seen as normal.
ok123456 4y ago
It's not complicated. It never is. Either you believe in an open internet or you don't. Either you're with us, or you're against us.
- lovich 4y ago
  I would be surprised if the number of people who believe in a truly open internet like that are even a 10th of a percent of the population.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  It's complicated. Unfortunately real life is never binary. There are several gradations between open internet and dystopian closed internet that only allows you to see what the governing powers want you to see. Most people are somewhere in the middle, as with all things.
  - ok123456 4y ago
    Nope. There is no middle ground. It. Is. Not. Complicated. Either you think of the internet as a utility where everyone is equal, like a telephone, or you think people should be "nudged" into harmonious behavior, where it takes on the worst aspects of a broadcast medium. The problem with "nudging" people is there's an equal and opposite reaction through the cybernetic system. For instance, adding fact check labels to every sensitive topic, COVID vaccines for instance, will lead people to think that it's all part of a larger conspiracy and they'll get a hit of dopamine when they "follow the qlues."
    - lovich 4y ago
      Even utilities have limits on the behavior you can use with them. Granted you gotta really go out of your way to trigger those limits but there is no society wide system in existence that follows that level of openness
      - ok123456 4y ago
        Doing actual actual crimes or committing a fraud using the phone, computer, fax, telex, or whatever other electronic means generally falls under wire fraud. The phone company doesn't de-platform "literal nazis" simply for being "literal nazis."
bawolff 4y ago
For 3 - kids have been on the internet for a while now. If anything there was much more of a moral panic about it in the 90s. I think point 1 is key - the internet is a bigger place, which also means things get more specialized and separated. You dont stumble across specialized content as much anymore, you have to go looking instead.
Manuel_D 4y ago
> Sex slaves and porn are a thing and a problem. There's both more of it and more awareness of it. In many places there are laws about this that companies who process money have to take in to account. Citation needed. Unless you're taking about CSAM shared on the dark web, I seriously doubt that sex slaves account for any significant portion of pornography. The only way I can see this being true is with a very wide definition of "sex slave" that includes someone doing porn to pay for rent. #3 was no less true in the 2000s - I can attest to that myself.
- spookie 4y ago
  Come on now... Do you really think some of the pr0n out there was consented upon by all parties? Let's be real. Even the largest pr0n sites have had a shit ton of cases come to surface, which should've put them out of business for good. And yes, some of it is about sex slavery. The pr0n industry is all rotten. Great to see legit, humane alternatives gaining traction, don't get me wrong. But, most of it, is just pure misery.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    What is the motive to producing non-consensual pornography? The risks are large: you're literally recording yourself committing a felony and publishing evidence of the crime to the world. Most porn production companies are looking to make a profit, not land themselves in jail. In the US, there's regulations to ensure all actors are of age and consented to recording [1]. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257
    - tsol 4y ago
      What's the motive to producing pornography? Because it gets someone off.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        People are investing in pornography production companies because they just like to get people off? No, the goal of production companies is to make money. The goal of the consumer is to get off, but the production company's goal absolutely is to money. As other commenters have pointed out [1] non-consensual pornography is indistinguishable to viewers from consensual pornography, so the risk of filming yourself commit rape and uploading evidence of the crime to the internet is not a decision I can see productions companies being keen on making. For a very loose idea of "sex trafficking" that includes people deciding to work in porn to make ends meet - but at this point you could say your janitors are being trafficked because they wouldn't do their job if they didn't have to pay rent. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33028286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33028286
chiefalchemist 4y ago
Does "female presenting nipples" === porn? It was a SCJ who said, "I'll know it (i.e., porn) when I see it". Also, it's a double-standard to say men can have free-will to present their bodies as they see fit but women can not.
bluedino 4y ago
Did you have internet access when you were ten?
cowtools 4y ago
> Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild And whose responsibility is that? People start treating the internet like TV and radio, so we have to start sanitizing it like TV and radio?
- Spivak 4y ago
  Yes because the internet, really the web, is a shared public broadcast medium. What makes it any different than radio? Don’t say logins because sites where basically anyone can join is essentially public.
q-big 4y ago
> 3. Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild. If more things were more easily accessible than the culture around screens and handling that with kids will need to change. Kids are ready for different things at different ages and the way they view things during their formative years impacts the way they view and treat others. Honestly, this was not different in my youth. When we found access to the internet, we of course looked for weird stuff (for those who remember: for example rotten.com; I was rather disturbed by it and learned my lesson that you shouldn't click on every link that you see on websites). I can tell you how this transformed me: if you have seen the early free spirit of the early web in your formative years, you become deeply suspicious of the political attempts to censor the internet - for example to "protect the children". This is what the authorities really fear: that people don't believe that this is all for their best.
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  Yep. Same. I played Doom as a toddler, in my dad's lap. I had early and unfettered access to all kinds of porn. I listened to insanely homophobic, sexist, and generally antisocial music (Eminem, D12). If you wiped my brain and gave me amnesia and asked me if those things will mess a kid up, I'd say yeah -- how couldn't they?! It turns out they had no negative effect on me that I can notice; they were just fun. As an adult, I don't do drugs, I've got all the fashionably cosmopolitan social views, etc. :p It's anecdata, but I think the biggest factors for how kids end up are "did you come out screwed up already" and "are your parents emotionally and financially-supportive while vaguely indicating the glide path they think you should follow, with stuff like off-handedly remarking on how racism is pretty bad at some point and generally forcing you to do well in school and putting you through college".
- int_19h 4y ago
  It was true before the Internet. BBS porn was a thing.
concordDance 4y ago
> 3. Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild. If more things were more easily accessible than the culture around screens and handling that with kids will need to change. Why? As a child who grew up either the free Internet of the early 2000s I can tell you it does far less harm than thing like going to school where a teacher dislikes you. If you're worried about kids getting an inaccurate impression from porn that take them aside and show them real sex tapes.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
And why should 3 be my problem?
sterlind 4y ago
I had unfettered internet access at 10. I picked up programming and hacking by age 12, watched fetish porn at 14, figured out Tor and FreeNet, then got into (learning about!) clandestine drug synthesis by age 16, rhodium and the hive and all that. Very formative years. Sure, I got myself into sketchy situations, but I wasn't at risk of getting murdered. The worst that would have happened is being emotionally scarred or going to juvy. A good exchange, for me.
seydor 4y ago
> and porn are a thing and a problem Says who btw. Does that include 3D porn ? AI generated porn? American prudishness is the problem, as well as all the backwards religious societies which are now more dispersed around the world than ever and support it. I think it's important to remember that liberalism is what brought technological progress to the west, not the inward-looking repressive attitudes. And that includes bodily liberalism as well.

by mfer 4y ago

lupire 4y ago

> Sex slaves and porn are a thing and a problem. They are two different things. Did you mean "sex slaves in porn"? Also, any kind of slave is a problem. You don't need to qualify it.

boppo1 4y ago
I think he meant human trafficking. There's a lot of videos out there of women under duress.

Griffinsauce 4y ago

> "About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them." This is on parents (and how they are educated around parenthood) IMO. Notice the comment about Reddit, even with all the sanitization it's ridiculously easy to find very hardcore (in every sense of the word) stuff. In the same way that you hold hands when you walk past a busy street, you cannot expect the internet to be a safe place. As a parent you have the responsibility here.

Damogran6 4y ago
I felt it was better to teach them that 'there's stuff out there you can't unsee', because I realized they were one sleepover away from getting around any filter I could put in front of them.
- Griffinsauce 4y ago
  Yes, great, this is in line with my point. I'm not saying you should take control of the internet but you are responsible for how they interact with it.
- Cr4shMyCar 4y ago
  It's like the infinite monkey theorem, but faster. Give a bunch of tweens long enough and they'll find their way around any internet filter.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  This is how it worked for us. Parents did what they could to block PC access, but me and my brother managed to break them all to do what kids do online. At certain point, you have to actually talk with your kids even if it is the kind of 'smoke that cigar until you are sick' approach. Naturally, my dad being my dad, took a different tack. He just picked the PC and took it to his shop. Different times. Needless to say, I don't think I will be able to try the same approach.
watwut 4y ago
You don't hold 10 years old hands when crossing the street. At that age, they are going through streets alone when they go to scool or club or visit friends.
- jacobr1 4y ago
  > At that age, they are going through streets alone when they go to scool or club or visit friends. In the united states, this stopped being socially acceptable sometime time in the past 20 years. Letting your kids walk to school before high-school (13/14) is considered child abuse by many. Not everywhere, not everyone. But there has been a huge shift in views around what kind of out-of-the-home-unsupervised activity is seen as normal.

ok123456 4y ago

It's not complicated. It never is. Either you believe in an open internet or you don't. Either you're with us, or you're against us.

lovich 4y ago
I would be surprised if the number of people who believe in a truly open internet like that are even a 10th of a percent of the population.
_gabe_ 4y ago
It's complicated. Unfortunately real life is never binary. There are several gradations between open internet and dystopian closed internet that only allows you to see what the governing powers want you to see. Most people are somewhere in the middle, as with all things.
- ok123456 4y ago
  Nope. There is no middle ground. It. Is. Not. Complicated. Either you think of the internet as a utility where everyone is equal, like a telephone, or you think people should be "nudged" into harmonious behavior, where it takes on the worst aspects of a broadcast medium. The problem with "nudging" people is there's an equal and opposite reaction through the cybernetic system. For instance, adding fact check labels to every sensitive topic, COVID vaccines for instance, will lead people to think that it's all part of a larger conspiracy and they'll get a hit of dopamine when they "follow the qlues."
  - lovich 4y ago
    Even utilities have limits on the behavior you can use with them. Granted you gotta really go out of your way to trigger those limits but there is no society wide system in existence that follows that level of openness
    - ok123456 4y ago
      Doing actual actual crimes or committing a fraud using the phone, computer, fax, telex, or whatever other electronic means generally falls under wire fraud. The phone company doesn't de-platform "literal nazis" simply for being "literal nazis."

bawolff 4y ago

For 3 - kids have been on the internet for a while now. If anything there was much more of a moral panic about it in the 90s. I think point 1 is key - the internet is a bigger place, which also means things get more specialized and separated. You dont stumble across specialized content as much anymore, you have to go looking instead.

Manuel_D 4y ago

> Sex slaves and porn are a thing and a problem. There's both more of it and more awareness of it. In many places there are laws about this that companies who process money have to take in to account. Citation needed. Unless you're taking about CSAM shared on the dark web, I seriously doubt that sex slaves account for any significant portion of pornography. The only way I can see this being true is with a very wide definition of "sex slave" that includes someone doing porn to pay for rent. #3 was no less true in the 2000s - I can attest to that myself.

spookie 4y ago
Come on now... Do you really think some of the pr0n out there was consented upon by all parties? Let's be real. Even the largest pr0n sites have had a shit ton of cases come to surface, which should've put them out of business for good. And yes, some of it is about sex slavery. The pr0n industry is all rotten. Great to see legit, humane alternatives gaining traction, don't get me wrong. But, most of it, is just pure misery.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  What is the motive to producing non-consensual pornography? The risks are large: you're literally recording yourself committing a felony and publishing evidence of the crime to the world. Most porn production companies are looking to make a profit, not land themselves in jail. In the US, there's regulations to ensure all actors are of age and consented to recording [1]. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2257
  - tsol 4y ago
    What's the motive to producing pornography? Because it gets someone off.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      People are investing in pornography production companies because they just like to get people off? No, the goal of production companies is to make money. The goal of the consumer is to get off, but the production company's goal absolutely is to money. As other commenters have pointed out [1] non-consensual pornography is indistinguishable to viewers from consensual pornography, so the risk of filming yourself commit rape and uploading evidence of the crime to the internet is not a decision I can see productions companies being keen on making. For a very loose idea of "sex trafficking" that includes people deciding to work in porn to make ends meet - but at this point you could say your janitors are being trafficked because they wouldn't do their job if they didn't have to pay rent. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33028286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33028286

chiefalchemist 4y ago

Does "female presenting nipples" === porn? It was a SCJ who said, "I'll know it (i.e., porn) when I see it". Also, it's a double-standard to say men can have free-will to present their bodies as they see fit but women can not.

bluedino 4y ago

Did you have internet access when you were ten?

cowtools 4y ago

> Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild And whose responsibility is that? People start treating the internet like TV and radio, so we have to start sanitizing it like TV and radio?

Spivak 4y ago
Yes because the internet, really the web, is a shared public broadcast medium. What makes it any different than radio? Don’t say logins because sites where basically anyone can join is essentially public.

q-big 4y ago

> 3. Kids and the Internet. About half the 10 year olds I know (which is more than a few) have phones with no filters on them. Kids running wild. If more things were more easily accessible than the culture around screens and handling that with kids will need to change. Kids are ready for different things at different ages and the way they view things during their formative years impacts the way they view and treat others. Honestly, this was not different in my youth. When we found access to the internet, we of course looked for weird stuff (for those who remember: for example rotten.com; I was rather disturbed by it and learned my lesson that you shouldn't click on every link that you see on websites). I can tell you how this transformed me: if you have seen the early free spirit of the early web in your formative years, you become deeply suspicious of the political attempts to censor the internet - for example to "protect the children". This is what the authorities really fear: that people don't believe that this is all for their best.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago
Yep. Same. I played Doom as a toddler, in my dad's lap. I had early and unfettered access to all kinds of porn. I listened to insanely homophobic, sexist, and generally antisocial music (Eminem, D12). If you wiped my brain and gave me amnesia and asked me if those things will mess a kid up, I'd say yeah -- how couldn't they?! It turns out they had no negative effect on me that I can notice; they were just fun. As an adult, I don't do drugs, I've got all the fashionably cosmopolitan social views, etc. :p It's anecdata, but I think the biggest factors for how kids end up are "did you come out screwed up already" and "are your parents emotionally and financially-supportive while vaguely indicating the glide path they think you should follow, with stuff like off-handedly remarking on how racism is pretty bad at some point and generally forcing you to do well in school and putting you through college".
int_19h 4y ago
It was true before the Internet. BBS porn was a thing.

concordDance 4y ago

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

And why should 3 be my problem?

sterlind 4y ago

I had unfettered internet access at 10. I picked up programming and hacking by age 12, watched fetish porn at 14, figured out Tor and FreeNet, then got into (learning about!) clandestine drug synthesis by age 16, rhodium and the hive and all that. Very formative years. Sure, I got myself into sketchy situations, but I wasn't at risk of getting murdered. The worst that would have happened is being emotionally scarred or going to juvy. A good exchange, for me.

seydor 4y ago

> and porn are a thing and a problem Says who btw. Does that include 3D porn ? AI generated porn? American prudishness is the problem, as well as all the backwards religious societies which are now more dispersed around the world than ever and support it. I think it's important to remember that liberalism is what brought technological progress to the west, not the inward-looking repressive attitudes. And that includes bodily liberalism as well.