5 ms·

> For that reason I chose to quit my job as a software team manager in an investment bank and instead went to work as a developer in a startup. > I decided the

> For that reason I chose to quit my job as a software team manager in an investment bank and instead went to work as a developer in a startup. > I decided there’s no point in working long hours in a responsible job helping other people advance their careers if I keep less than 40p of every pound I earn at that point. I may as well do less responsible work that I enjoy instead. This is an extremely funny takeaway in that anyone who doesn't agree with your ideological position is likely to see this as the tax working as intended.

cbeach 4y ago
Oh yes, you're not wrong. Many people on the left see tax as an appropriate punishment for wealth. In their worldview, wealthy people are demonised and dehumanised. The left are convinced that wealthy people are parasitic on society. This leftwing ideology seems peculiar to me, having seen the data on who's funding public services, and who's benefiting from public services.
- fnimick 4y ago
  How can you possibly justify keeping even more of your money that you earn from profiting from the work of others, when people in need are freezing and starving? I know HN runs libertarian but this is just abhorrent.
  - imdsm 4y ago
    Many people make this point, but very few are willing to defend their views with some good old pragmatism. In the nature of HN, let's have a go at that, shall we? 1. Who works harder, an office worker working for 7.5 hours or a nurse who works for 12+ hours? 2. Who works harder, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office, or someone who works 80 hours a week, founding a company? 3. Who has worked harder to get where they are, an office worker who spent 6 months getting an NVQ in Microsoft Office or a nurse who spent 4-5 years getting a degree in nursing? 4. Who takes more risks, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office or a founder who puts their own capital in to try and create a company? 5. Which brings more value to a community, a person who is employed, or a person who employs people?
    - caoilte 4y ago
      > Who takes more risks, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office or a founder who puts their own capital in to try and create a company? Inherited capital in every startup I've worked at. And enough of it that they got several runs at success. It wasn't risky at all. > Which brings more value to a community, a person who is employed, or a person who employs people? Too vague a generalisation to have any value. What matters is who does the work and the social value of that work.
      - imdsm 4y ago
        I feel slightly sad that I numbered the questions and you blew past that but then it seems you've not attempted to answer the actual questions. > Inherited capital in every startup I've worked at. And enough of it that they got several runs at success. It wasn't risky at all. In the event this was an attempt to answer, I have to say, feels like a non-answer. You do say "worked at" though, which makes me think not as a founder but as an employee, thus the capital risk wasn't yours so much. > Too vague a generalisation to have any value. What matters is who does the work and the social value of that work. It is vague, sure, a doctor probably has more value than someone who employs a cleaner to clean their home. So I suppose, a better question would be: 6. Which brings more value to a community, a person who works in an office doing menial admin work for 5 years, or a person who spends 5 years founding a new company that provides medical services to the community, employs 100 people, and produces tax receipts (direct and indirect) of 1000x the person who works in an office doing menial admin work? If you're thinking "how can I possibly answer that question?" then you're right. You can't. The obvious answer is that the founder ultimately produces more value, and that's okay. You don't have to hate or dislike people for creating value — creating jobs and providing services is crucial to the economies around the world. There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to such a question of "well the office worker has value too", yes, nobody is saying people are value-less, but there is an objective reality that some people produce more value than others. Ultimately, my purposefully crafted questions lead up to one thing: some people deserve to be paid more than others.
        caoilte 4y ago
  - cbeach 4y ago
    I think you must misunderstand my situation if you think I earn money from "profiting from the work of others"? Have you ever been a senior manager before? If you had, I hope you'd understand that the role involves creating jobs, hiring people, promoting people and generally supporting them, mentoring and advancing their careers? Taking responsibility for any problems they cause, and ensuring they get the glory of any successes. As well as doing my regular job as a developer at the highest level. I'd never worked so hard in my life. It was exhausting and I'd expect to be compensated richly for it. Few people would stick the job. The more jobs created, the more competition for employees, and thus the higher wages offered. We all owe a debt of gratitude to job creators.
- jakub_g 4y ago
  The real issue, everywhere, is that the ordinary people are made believe those earning 100k are ultra rich, and should be taxed to death, and not those earning 10M+, or having inherited millions.
  - jedrek 4y ago
    100k/pa in the UK is 'ultra wealthy'. 120k/pa puts you into the 1% of top earners.
    - jakub_g 4y ago
      Someone making 100k per year but being an immigrant (=no inheritance) is nowhere as wealthy as someone making 60k and having a 500k family house inherited.
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  >This leftwing ideology seems peculiar to me, having seen the data on who's funding public services, and who's benefiting from public services. The thing is, even people who pay $100,000 a year in taxes actually gain far more value than that from a properly functioning society with strong public services and social safety nets. It's hard to put a proper price on personal safety or the opportunity cost of having to spend time, energy and money on securing your family and belongings rather than just being able to generally trust the people around you.
- mvc 4y ago
  It's not a punishment for wealth. Think of it like insurance of your status in the system. Your insurance premiums are proportional to the value of the stuff you want to protect. Presumably you own a house. A pension. Various other investments perhaps. All these become worthless if civil society fails and we go back to the Leviathan. It is right that you should pay a higher premium for that type of insurance than those with no such wealth at stake.
  - cbeach 4y ago
    I'm not sure I get any more value from the public service than anyone else. Do I get faster service from the police? More officers assigned to protect me? Any perks from the NHS for the wealthy? Or the same service as everyone else? One thing I know for sure - less public money is allocated to my children (I live in the countryside) than children in urban areas, due to the funding formula.
    - atmosx 4y ago
      > I'm not sure I get any more value from the public service than anyone else. "Clash of Autonomy and Interdependence" is an interesting somewhat related read on the topic[^1]. [^1]: https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/10/clash-of-autonomy-and-interdependence.html https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/10/cl...
- suction 4y ago
  [dead]
- atmosx 4y ago
  Gavin Belson agrees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zQpN28xa4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zQpN28xa4

cbeach 4y ago

Oh yes, you're not wrong. Many people on the left see tax as an appropriate punishment for wealth. In their worldview, wealthy people are demonised and dehumanised. The left are convinced that wealthy people are parasitic on society. This leftwing ideology seems peculiar to me, having seen the data on who's funding public services, and who's benefiting from public services.

fnimick 4y ago
How can you possibly justify keeping even more of your money that you earn from profiting from the work of others, when people in need are freezing and starving? I know HN runs libertarian but this is just abhorrent.
- imdsm 4y ago
  Many people make this point, but very few are willing to defend their views with some good old pragmatism. In the nature of HN, let's have a go at that, shall we? 1. Who works harder, an office worker working for 7.5 hours or a nurse who works for 12+ hours? 2. Who works harder, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office, or someone who works 80 hours a week, founding a company? 3. Who has worked harder to get where they are, an office worker who spent 6 months getting an NVQ in Microsoft Office or a nurse who spent 4-5 years getting a degree in nursing? 4. Who takes more risks, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office or a founder who puts their own capital in to try and create a company? 5. Which brings more value to a community, a person who is employed, or a person who employs people?
  - caoilte 4y ago
    > Who takes more risks, a person who works 37.5 hours in an office or a founder who puts their own capital in to try and create a company? Inherited capital in every startup I've worked at. And enough of it that they got several runs at success. It wasn't risky at all. > Which brings more value to a community, a person who is employed, or a person who employs people? Too vague a generalisation to have any value. What matters is who does the work and the social value of that work.
    - imdsm 4y ago
      I feel slightly sad that I numbered the questions and you blew past that but then it seems you've not attempted to answer the actual questions. > Inherited capital in every startup I've worked at. And enough of it that they got several runs at success. It wasn't risky at all. In the event this was an attempt to answer, I have to say, feels like a non-answer. You do say "worked at" though, which makes me think not as a founder but as an employee, thus the capital risk wasn't yours so much. > Too vague a generalisation to have any value. What matters is who does the work and the social value of that work. It is vague, sure, a doctor probably has more value than someone who employs a cleaner to clean their home. So I suppose, a better question would be: 6. Which brings more value to a community, a person who works in an office doing menial admin work for 5 years, or a person who spends 5 years founding a new company that provides medical services to the community, employs 100 people, and produces tax receipts (direct and indirect) of 1000x the person who works in an office doing menial admin work? If you're thinking "how can I possibly answer that question?" then you're right. You can't. The obvious answer is that the founder ultimately produces more value, and that's okay. You don't have to hate or dislike people for creating value — creating jobs and providing services is crucial to the economies around the world. There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to such a question of "well the office worker has value too", yes, nobody is saying people are value-less, but there is an objective reality that some people produce more value than others. Ultimately, my purposefully crafted questions lead up to one thing: some people deserve to be paid more than others.
      - caoilte 4y ago
- cbeach 4y ago
  I think you must misunderstand my situation if you think I earn money from "profiting from the work of others"? Have you ever been a senior manager before? If you had, I hope you'd understand that the role involves creating jobs, hiring people, promoting people and generally supporting them, mentoring and advancing their careers? Taking responsibility for any problems they cause, and ensuring they get the glory of any successes. As well as doing my regular job as a developer at the highest level. I'd never worked so hard in my life. It was exhausting and I'd expect to be compensated richly for it. Few people would stick the job. The more jobs created, the more competition for employees, and thus the higher wages offered. We all owe a debt of gratitude to job creators.
jakub_g 4y ago
The real issue, everywhere, is that the ordinary people are made believe those earning 100k are ultra rich, and should be taxed to death, and not those earning 10M+, or having inherited millions.
- jedrek 4y ago
  100k/pa in the UK is 'ultra wealthy'. 120k/pa puts you into the 1% of top earners.
  - jakub_g 4y ago
    Someone making 100k per year but being an immigrant (=no inheritance) is nowhere as wealthy as someone making 60k and having a 500k family house inherited.
Swenrekcah 4y ago
>This leftwing ideology seems peculiar to me, having seen the data on who's funding public services, and who's benefiting from public services. The thing is, even people who pay $100,000 a year in taxes actually gain far more value than that from a properly functioning society with strong public services and social safety nets. It's hard to put a proper price on personal safety or the opportunity cost of having to spend time, energy and money on securing your family and belongings rather than just being able to generally trust the people around you.
mvc 4y ago
It's not a punishment for wealth. Think of it like insurance of your status in the system. Your insurance premiums are proportional to the value of the stuff you want to protect. Presumably you own a house. A pension. Various other investments perhaps. All these become worthless if civil society fails and we go back to the Leviathan. It is right that you should pay a higher premium for that type of insurance than those with no such wealth at stake.
- cbeach 4y ago
  I'm not sure I get any more value from the public service than anyone else. Do I get faster service from the police? More officers assigned to protect me? Any perks from the NHS for the wealthy? Or the same service as everyone else? One thing I know for sure - less public money is allocated to my children (I live in the countryside) than children in urban areas, due to the funding formula.
  - atmosx 4y ago
    > I'm not sure I get any more value from the public service than anyone else. "Clash of Autonomy and Interdependence" is an interesting somewhat related read on the topic[^1]. [^1]: https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/10/clash-of-autonomy-and-interdependence.html https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2009/10/cl...
suction 4y ago
[dead]
atmosx 4y ago
Gavin Belson agrees: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zQpN28xa4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zQpN28xa4