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I think the assumption that literature complexity must have been incremental is flawed. Complex oral tradition could have led directly to complex story-telling

I think the assumption that literature complexity must have been incremental is flawed. Complex oral tradition could have led directly to complex story-telling literature. All it would take is someone writing it down.

Maursault 4y ago
> I think the assumption that literature complexity must have been incremental is flawed. That is fine, but my assumption is supported by the history of literature. We don't see anything as complex as Dostoyevski's Crime and Punishment or Twain's Huckleberry Finn in 1000BC. > Complex oral tradition could have led directly to complex story-telling literature. All it would take is someone writing it down. Are there any examples of "complex" oral tradition that stand in contrast to simpler oral traditions? Could we compare the early Christian oral tradition with, say, Hopi oral tradition to determine which is more or less complex? I don't think this makes a lot of sense, but I would entertain supporting argument.
- shortsightedsid 4y ago
  Not sure what are simple oral traditions, but the Vedas [1] are oral transmitted. To preserve meaning there is elaborate chanting techniques. They have been written down recently, however, to really learn them, one needs to chant. They are pretty complex for sure. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas
  - Maursault 4y ago
    If the Vedas oral tradition "led directly to complex story-telling literature," you may have a fair point, but with only the example of the Vedas having a complex oral tradition, this (as a candidate for counter-example) isn't exactly clear. But I'm almost certain there's tons of complex stories in mine and especially in other cultures of which I am not aware. If there wasn't, maybe I could give you a hand.
    - shortsightedsid 4y ago
      Hindu tradition state that it directly led to elaborate literature and rich story telling. Puranas [1] and epics like the Ramayana [2] and Mahabharata [3] were orally transmitted as well. The point being that the Vedas are pretty terse which makes it hard to understand or apply without specialized knowledge / background. The Puranas, Ramayana and Mahabharata provide context via stories etc.. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
      - Maursault 4y ago
        This is way beyond my ability to rationally argue. I have read Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, and all I can say is it was all mind-numbing.
- goto11 4y ago
  It is generally agreed that long narrative poems like Homer was transferred orally for centuries before getting written down the first time.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    I think it is probably more difficult to show that these particular oral traditions directly led to complex story literature other than those attributed to Homer. Certainly stories are told and passed on, but beyond someone writing those particular stories down, the effect on other literature without an oral tradition is not as clear.

Maursault 4y ago

> I think the assumption that literature complexity must have been incremental is flawed. That is fine, but my assumption is supported by the history of literature. We don't see anything as complex as Dostoyevski's Crime and Punishment or Twain's Huckleberry Finn in 1000BC. > Complex oral tradition could have led directly to complex story-telling literature. All it would take is someone writing it down. Are there any examples of "complex" oral tradition that stand in contrast to simpler oral traditions? Could we compare the early Christian oral tradition with, say, Hopi oral tradition to determine which is more or less complex? I don't think this makes a lot of sense, but I would entertain supporting argument.

shortsightedsid 4y ago
Not sure what are simple oral traditions, but the Vedas [1] are oral transmitted. To preserve meaning there is elaborate chanting techniques. They have been written down recently, however, to really learn them, one needs to chant. They are pretty complex for sure. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas
- Maursault 4y ago
  If the Vedas oral tradition "led directly to complex story-telling literature," you may have a fair point, but with only the example of the Vedas having a complex oral tradition, this (as a candidate for counter-example) isn't exactly clear. But I'm almost certain there's tons of complex stories in mine and especially in other cultures of which I am not aware. If there wasn't, maybe I could give you a hand.
  - shortsightedsid 4y ago
    Hindu tradition state that it directly led to elaborate literature and rich story telling. Puranas [1] and epics like the Ramayana [2] and Mahabharata [3] were orally transmitted as well. The point being that the Vedas are pretty terse which makes it hard to understand or apply without specialized knowledge / background. The Puranas, Ramayana and Mahabharata provide context via stories etc.. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
    - Maursault 4y ago
      This is way beyond my ability to rationally argue. I have read Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, and all I can say is it was all mind-numbing.
goto11 4y ago
It is generally agreed that long narrative poems like Homer was transferred orally for centuries before getting written down the first time.
- Maursault 4y ago
  I think it is probably more difficult to show that these particular oral traditions directly led to complex story literature other than those attributed to Homer. Certainly stories are told and passed on, but beyond someone writing those particular stories down, the effect on other literature without an oral tradition is not as clear.