7 ms·

It will lead to some workaround. A bigger part of the pay in the form of bonuses or discretionary grants, for example. What exactly does posting race and gend

It will lead to some workaround. A bigger part of the pay in the form of bonuses or discretionary grants, for example. What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically? Some countries (including one that coined the term Liberty, Equality, Fraternity) ban the use of gender and race statistics in the interest of equity. Is California a more equitable state than other states? Will this bill make it less inequitable? Are these questions being considered.

awb 4y ago
> It will lead to some workaround. A bigger part of the pay in the form of bonuses or discretionary grants, for example. How will existing commission-based compensation be reported, like sales and recruiting jobs?
r00fus 4y ago
> Some countries (including one that coined the term Liberty, Equality, Fraternity) ban the use of gender and race statistics in the interest of equity. So what does a different jurisdiction (e.g. France) have to do with a California law? I posit nothing will change, job reporting/requirements are highly dependent on jurisdiction, and companies are well versed in juggling those differences.
giantg2 4y ago
"What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically?" Depends on what the data says and who you ask. My own assumption, based on the exclusion of many data points, is that it will be used as political ammunition for further wage laws based on personal characteristics/identity. Perhaps along with that, it will catch some abusive employers, or prompt underpaid employees to quit.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  It will probably result in paying majorities less to appease the mob that this metric was written for.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    I imagine there will be pressure to ensure that each of those categories, and especially combinations of those, will not be paid at least average. And the nature of averages being what they are, and the unfortunate impossibility of paying everybody average or better, the larger groups will need to be managed downward.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    I love the inherent contradiction that the majority who enjoys higher pay for the same work is actually the oppressed class in this situation. If shining a light on the pay discrepancy between race and gender causes pay to go down then that's pretty damning. This has big "the privileged view equality as oppression" energy.
- elil17 4y ago
  >will be used as political ammunition for further wage laws based on personal characteristics/identity Like what? I don't really see what further laws California could have within the current EEO framework. This seems targeted at transparency and enforcement.
  - renlo 4y ago
    In California they tried to add an amendment to allow race-based preferential treatment for the UCs (etc) [1]. It failed, but just putting this out there to better understand the milieu and how it _could_ be used. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Proposition_209_Affirmative_Action_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr...
    - elil17 4y ago
      In this case, "preferential treatment" means affirmative action, something that is done everywhere else in America. No one was proposing quotas or something like that, which are federally illegal.
darth_avocado 4y ago
This is exactly what is happening right now in Colorado. 1. Pay ranges are visible for a job. However, the ranges are very wide in some cases, almost $200k wide. What am I to learn from this if I get offered the mid point, but almost everyone else is earning the max limit? Pay ranges are useless without seeing the distribution. 2. Equity isn’t included in this (or any other govt processes) because it is not considered “guaranteed pay”. Especially in tech where equity is a big part of your compensation, it’s very hard to use this data in any meaningful way.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  So... a simple-minded law not only didn't fix the problem it was supposed to solve, but actually made things worse? Ah, government.
  - peter422 4y ago
    How is it worse?
    - pb7 4y ago
      I don't agree with GP but it can be worse by misleading people that don't know how compensation structures work at certain companies. They might be happy that they got 90th percentile salary but not understand and/or pursue stocks which is generally the bulk of the compensation or at at the very least, the biggest differentiator between individuals. Further, being at the top of band, they may receive small raises whereas those with lower base salary may receive higher.
      - xboxnolifes 4y ago
        I still don't understand how this is worse than no information. Both scenarios can have the uninformed not know about stocks.
        pb7 4y ago
joe-collins 4y ago
Many, many jobs are only paid in straight wages. No commission, no bonuses. This bill will highlight the gap between the lowest-paying jobs and skilled trades, and induce pressure on workers to skill up (they see exactly how much they're missing out on) and on low-pay employers to offer more (because some of their workers are freshly motivated to jump ship).
asabjorn 4y ago
> What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically? It enables third parties to calculate ESG scores more easily using data that would otherwise have to be voluntarily relinquished. The S in ESG stands for compliance with the woke social justice agenda. ESG essentially means compliance with the agenda of the powers creating the score, so coal and weapons manufactorers have a high score. The companies can be financially pressured by pension and index funds that illegally use cartel behavior to push the incredibly unpopular ESG. Expect those pension funds assets to trend towards negative real returns as companies start prioritizing politics over sensible business decisions. E.g. blackrock, vanguard, most state and federal pension funds.
runako 4y ago
> What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically? If I am a person whose demographics do not pattern-match against the prototypical C-suite exec, it lets me know which companies will make it harder or less hard for me to get paid as much as other people doing the same job. If I know up front that a company has a pattern of large variance in how they pay for a given role, I will save us all a lot of time and apply my talents elsewhere. We both achieve what we want in the end.

awb 4y ago

> It will lead to some workaround. A bigger part of the pay in the form of bonuses or discretionary grants, for example. How will existing commission-based compensation be reported, like sales and recruiting jobs?

r00fus 4y ago

> Some countries (including one that coined the term Liberty, Equality, Fraternity) ban the use of gender and race statistics in the interest of equity. So what does a different jurisdiction (e.g. France) have to do with a California law? I posit nothing will change, job reporting/requirements are highly dependent on jurisdiction, and companies are well versed in juggling those differences.

giantg2 4y ago

"What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically?" Depends on what the data says and who you ask. My own assumption, based on the exclusion of many data points, is that it will be used as political ammunition for further wage laws based on personal characteristics/identity. Perhaps along with that, it will catch some abusive employers, or prompt underpaid employees to quit.

nonethewiser 4y ago
It will probably result in paying majorities less to appease the mob that this metric was written for.
- kbelder 4y ago
  I imagine there will be pressure to ensure that each of those categories, and especially combinations of those, will not be paid at least average. And the nature of averages being what they are, and the unfortunate impossibility of paying everybody average or better, the larger groups will need to be managed downward.
- Spivak 4y ago
  I love the inherent contradiction that the majority who enjoys higher pay for the same work is actually the oppressed class in this situation. If shining a light on the pay discrepancy between race and gender causes pay to go down then that's pretty damning. This has big "the privileged view equality as oppression" energy.
elil17 4y ago
>will be used as political ammunition for further wage laws based on personal characteristics/identity Like what? I don't really see what further laws California could have within the current EEO framework. This seems targeted at transparency and enforcement.
- renlo 4y ago
  In California they tried to add an amendment to allow race-based preferential treatment for the UCs (etc) [1]. It failed, but just putting this out there to better understand the milieu and how it _could_ be used. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Proposition_209_Affirmative_Action_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_16,_Repeal_Pr...
  - elil17 4y ago
    In this case, "preferential treatment" means affirmative action, something that is done everywhere else in America. No one was proposing quotas or something like that, which are federally illegal.

darth_avocado 4y ago

This is exactly what is happening right now in Colorado. 1. Pay ranges are visible for a job. However, the ranges are very wide in some cases, almost $200k wide. What am I to learn from this if I get offered the mid point, but almost everyone else is earning the max limit? Pay ranges are useless without seeing the distribution. 2. Equity isn’t included in this (or any other govt processes) because it is not considered “guaranteed pay”. Especially in tech where equity is a big part of your compensation, it’s very hard to use this data in any meaningful way.

commandlinefan 4y ago
So... a simple-minded law not only didn't fix the problem it was supposed to solve, but actually made things worse? Ah, government.
- peter422 4y ago
  How is it worse?
  - pb7 4y ago
    I don't agree with GP but it can be worse by misleading people that don't know how compensation structures work at certain companies. They might be happy that they got 90th percentile salary but not understand and/or pursue stocks which is generally the bulk of the compensation or at at the very least, the biggest differentiator between individuals. Further, being at the top of band, they may receive small raises whereas those with lower base salary may receive higher.
    - xboxnolifes 4y ago
      I still don't understand how this is worse than no information. Both scenarios can have the uninformed not know about stocks.
      - pb7 4y ago

joe-collins 4y ago

Many, many jobs are only paid in straight wages. No commission, no bonuses. This bill will highlight the gap between the lowest-paying jobs and skilled trades, and induce pressure on workers to skill up (they see exactly how much they're missing out on) and on low-pay employers to offer more (because some of their workers are freshly motivated to jump ship).

asabjorn 4y ago

> What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically? It enables third parties to calculate ESG scores more easily using data that would otherwise have to be voluntarily relinquished. The S in ESG stands for compliance with the woke social justice agenda. ESG essentially means compliance with the agenda of the powers creating the score, so coal and weapons manufactorers have a high score. The companies can be financially pressured by pension and index funds that illegally use cartel behavior to push the incredibly unpopular ESG. Expect those pension funds assets to trend towards negative real returns as companies start prioritizing politics over sensible business decisions. E.g. blackrock, vanguard, most state and federal pension funds.

runako 4y ago

> What exactly does posting race and gender data accomplish exactly, specifically? If I am a person whose demographics do not pattern-match against the prototypical C-suite exec, it lets me know which companies will make it harder or less hard for me to get paid as much as other people doing the same job. If I know up front that a company has a pattern of large variance in how they pay for a given role, I will save us all a lot of time and apply my talents elsewhere. We both achieve what we want in the end.