14 ms·

No. It's not a fantasy. The Nokia N900 was amazing. It functioned as a phone with a touchscreen to deliver the experience that had now become the dominant one.

No. It's not a fantasy. The Nokia N900 was amazing. It functioned as a phone with a touchscreen to deliver the experience that had now become the dominant one. But also, by sliding up the screen, it had a fully featured keyboard, and essentially transmogrified into a "pc that fits into your pocket". So you could with a one handed push go from the touchscreen-only experience back to edit documents by using a combination of the keyboard and the touchscreen (with a stylus if neccessary). I stopped using it because it lost software support and then the touchscreen stopped working, but I have it sitting here at my desk. Every phone I have used since has been worse.

ElCheapo 4y ago
It was amazing at doing.... what? You've just listed a bunch of hardware functionalities without actually saying what you managed to use it for.
- Morgawr 4y ago
  They mentioned editing documents
- yosamino 4y ago
  All the things you would use a phone for in the early 2010s: * Phone calls * Video calls over XMPP * Text/XMPP messaging * Web browsing * Document editing * Writing and receiving email * Playing music ( it had a built in FM transmitter - how cool was that!) * Setting Alarms * weather widgets * Writing PHP programms * Writing python programms * ssh-ing into servers * gps navigation * take and share pictures * multi-colored status LEDs * it had usb-otg so you could use as a flash drive * share an gsm internet connection via USB Some of these things work better with a touch screen - some work better with a slide-out physical keyboard... it was just a really good device.
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    Was my post confusing? Nothing you've written can't be done with an Android phone with a keyboard attachment. When is this super important general purpose computing thingy supposed to come into play?
    - tmikaeld 4y ago
      The key is the keyboard is integrated and foldable, it's the convenience and portability that is key. With an android (with two exceptions), you have to have two separate pieces, something to put them on and then pair and charge both parts. In short: You can pull it out of your pocket anywhere, type something with both thumbs on a full keyboard, then fold it down again in seconds. There are Android phones with a full keyboard as well, but they are closed source/hardware.
      - ElCheapo 4y ago
        Your reply is baffling. First you say that with "android" (as if they made hardware) you can't have an integrated keyboard. Then you say that Android phones with a full integrated keyboard actually exist. But then you move the goalpost saying that they aren't open source/hardware. Which is false, by the way, since this device [https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/pro1 https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/pro1] runs LineageOS, and phones with completely free software down to the firmware level don't exist, including the N900 which needs a binary blob to start the wifi module (as far as I know) and whose hardware is not open source in the slightest. And even after all of this I've been given zero use cases that an Android phone can't provide with the proper application installed.
        dspillett 4y ago
        > But then you move the goalpost Let us be fair here: you moved the goalposts first by going from “it is an absolute fantasy” to, once people pointed out that they already exist, “but I can't see a use for one”.
        ElCheapo 4y ago
  - throw10920 4y ago
    While all of these things are possible on a tiny PC, many of them are very sub-optimal - like how many languages are Turing-complete but not of equivalent use (e.g. assembly is not as useful as Rust in the vast majority of programming domains). Things like "writing PHP/Python programs" and "document editing", while things that you can do on a pocket-sized laptop, are much better to do on a real laptop or desktop. A tiny PC will strain your eyes, decrease your reading, typing and interaction speed, hurt your neck, and react slowly relative to a full computer - regardless of whether you're using a soft-keyboard or a physical (but tiny) hardware keyboard. Although ElCheapo may have thrown a lot of unnecessary junk into their comments, their point "The medium is the message, the form is the functionality." is still true - you don't want to use C# for tiny (kilobytes RAM) embedded devices and you don't want to use this pocket PC for writing code, even though you can.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      I used to think the only proper way of reading books is paper (or at least large format eink) but I see most people these days reading from tiny phone screens. Thanks to increased mobility they easily do it where it's too much hassle for me. For many people with good eyesight it is just fine to use a small screen for programming.
      - throw10920 4y ago
        Whether or not a large number of people do something isn't really relevant to whether its efficient or healthy. Many people in the US have addictions to social media (unhealthy) and use few keyboard shortcuts (inefficient) and draft emails on phone keyboards (inefficient). It's also not fine to use a small screen for programming even if you have good eyesight, as it will worsen your eyesight even if you hold it as far away from your body as you can with your arms straight - the constant focusing on an object near your face will cause your eye muscles to weaken and give you myopia. You'll also damage your neck unless you hold your phone at eye (or at least chest) level - something that I've seen literally nobody do.
        throwaway290 4y ago
  - danans 4y ago
    > * Writing PHP programms > * Writing python programms Honest question: what is a real world use case for writing PHP or Python programs on a tiny laptop with a 7" display that wouldn't be better served by a 13" laptop. I can't imagine writing code while standing on a train, for example. But more important, I'm having trouble imagining what kind of work situation would require that.
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      > Honest question: what is a real world use case for writing PHP or Python programs on a tiny laptop with a 7" display that wouldn't be better served by a 13" laptop A computer you can take everywhere when you need to squeeze in extra computer-time into any unplanned free moment opportunistically (e.g. Leetcode practice, dissertation crunch), or being on call and only need ssh & chat access 24/7. I carried a high-DPI 7" tablet with a keyboard case to good effect. It was less of a physical burden than lugging around a 13-incher, and was inconspicuous when outdoors or places I may have felt unsafe carrying a laptop
      - danans 4y ago
        > It was less of a physical burden than lugging around a 13-incher, I guess this is a very personal thing, but I've always found the weight difference between a 7" tablet and a slim 13" laptop to be pretty minimal, and I walk-commute on average 3 miles a day carrying a laptop. > and was inconspicuous when outdoors or places I may have felt unsafe carrying a laptop It's probably a lifestyle choice, but if I were to feel unsafe using a laptop in a space, I probably wouldn't be able to focus enough to work, and instead of using a less conspicuous device, I would relocate somewhere that I felt safe. Also if I were on-call I would doubly want to be in a place where I felt I could focus completely on my work. I don't doubt that the market niche for inconspicuous general purpose computing devices exists, but I don't think it's huge.
        rchaud 4y ago
        It doesn't have to only be about safety. I can't use my MBP 13 on the fold out tray of a coach seat. There are times where a less conspicuous device comes in handy.
  - riedel 4y ago
    Playing text adventures was a nice past time. I had Psion those days and a Nokia 6800. I really wonder what it would be like to have a nice android phone with a keyboard those days... But I guess this is mostly nostalgia.
  - ynx 4y ago
    As the owner of a PinePhone with the battery+keyboard...it's hot garbage at most of those. Pass. I'll take a laptop.
- brokenkebab2 4y ago
  For example I could prepare presentations with it, or deal with long emails, and write code - all day long. While it was less comfortable compared to full-sized PC, it was normal, alright. Appearing in the same situation with any modern smartphone I would surrender immediately, because it would be literally crippling experience. Not to mention that it was technically much more flexible.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  When I travelled a lot, I just brought a pocket Linux machine with keyboard (first the Zaurus, then Pandora, then GDP Pocket 1) and that was all a lot more comfortable hauling along than my laptop. I didn't have to do stretches of programming, but for small changes, or some server management, it was great. I am waiting for the Astro Slide with Linux to arrive.
- INTPenis 4y ago
  I had one, my brother had one, honestly it was shit at everything you expect from a phone. The only good point about it was that it had a full and integrated keyboard, and a Linux based OS you could use to manage your servers over ssh in extreme cases. Answering calls on it was a hit or miss, the UI just froze for several seconds from the incredible stress of suddenly starting up the phone app when someone called you. I'd much rather 1) separate my work from my personal life and 2) have a laptop in a backpack for when I know I might have to do work.
- unregistereddev 4y ago
  The integrated keyboard had a tab key, so autocomplete worked on the terminal. This was a really big deal that made the tiny keyboard much more useful for real work. The Maemo distribution that the N900 ran was based on debian, and you could point apt to the standard package repositories to install pretty much any Linux software. This opened many, many possibilities - for example, I had an always-on computer in my pocket with WireShark installed. I could (and did) occasionally sniff wireless traffic to troubleshoot something. If you couldn't find a mobile app that would do what you wanted, you could usually install a desktop app and it'd work (though sometimes the UI was awkward on that small screen). While most of the functionality can be replicated on a modern Android device, these pocket computers were different in a special way. The integrated physical keyboard, the tab key, the full Linux kernel and apt, all combined to create an experience that was distinctly different from Android. It really felt like a pocket-sized workstation - it was a full computer first, and pocket-sized second. Android smartphones are pocket-sized mobile devices first, and potential workstations second.
- type0 4y ago
  > It was amazing at doing.... what? at being general purpose computer
walterbell 4y ago
Maemo is being rebooted, based on Devuan, for N900, PinePhone and other devices, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32699853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32699853
thereddaikon 4y ago
having a keyboard does not a PC make. The N900 was great to type on by cellphone standards but it was still a cell phone. Maemo is not a PC OS. It did not do what a PC did.
- PopePompus 4y ago
  You could easily (and I did) put a full Debian user space on the N900, and maintain all the cell phone functionality. It offered a pretty complete Linux experience.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  N900 was a great deal closer to a PC OS than any release of Android I've seen past Android 2.x. It even has X11 and a built in, honest-to-goodness version of apt! You can't say that about many phones these days. I'm almost sure that with enough swearing and elbow grease I could replace the entire GUI with something that I can write myself to be tailor-made to my needs. Doing anything even close to this for Android seems like a daunting task.
thom_ 4y ago
I remember vividly smashing the stylus into the unresponsive tft screen until it broke in a white rage. The n900 totally sucked, although it did look neat. The wifi sucked, the screen sucked, no capacitive touch. Also the battery sucked like one and a half hours screentime. And the apps they sucked. Oh and it was slow enough every webpage loaded would have you near tears in anticipation. But - to nokias credit, it did fit into your pocket, helpfully to compensate for the wad of cash absent after the purchase.

ElCheapo 4y ago

It was amazing at doing.... what? You've just listed a bunch of hardware functionalities without actually saying what you managed to use it for.

Morgawr 4y ago
They mentioned editing documents
yosamino 4y ago
All the things you would use a phone for in the early 2010s: * Phone calls * Video calls over XMPP * Text/XMPP messaging * Web browsing * Document editing * Writing and receiving email * Playing music ( it had a built in FM transmitter - how cool was that!) * Setting Alarms * weather widgets * Writing PHP programms * Writing python programms * ssh-ing into servers * gps navigation * take and share pictures * multi-colored status LEDs * it had usb-otg so you could use as a flash drive * share an gsm internet connection via USB Some of these things work better with a touch screen - some work better with a slide-out physical keyboard... it was just a really good device.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  Was my post confusing? Nothing you've written can't be done with an Android phone with a keyboard attachment. When is this super important general purpose computing thingy supposed to come into play?
  - tmikaeld 4y ago
    The key is the keyboard is integrated and foldable, it's the convenience and portability that is key. With an android (with two exceptions), you have to have two separate pieces, something to put them on and then pair and charge both parts. In short: You can pull it out of your pocket anywhere, type something with both thumbs on a full keyboard, then fold it down again in seconds. There are Android phones with a full keyboard as well, but they are closed source/hardware.
    - ElCheapo 4y ago
      Your reply is baffling. First you say that with "android" (as if they made hardware) you can't have an integrated keyboard. Then you say that Android phones with a full integrated keyboard actually exist. But then you move the goalpost saying that they aren't open source/hardware. Which is false, by the way, since this device [https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/pro1 https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/pro1] runs LineageOS, and phones with completely free software down to the firmware level don't exist, including the N900 which needs a binary blob to start the wifi module (as far as I know) and whose hardware is not open source in the slightest. And even after all of this I've been given zero use cases that an Android phone can't provide with the proper application installed.
      - dspillett 4y ago
        > But then you move the goalpost Let us be fair here: you moved the goalposts first by going from “it is an absolute fantasy” to, once people pointed out that they already exist, “but I can't see a use for one”.
        ElCheapo 4y ago
- throw10920 4y ago
  While all of these things are possible on a tiny PC, many of them are very sub-optimal - like how many languages are Turing-complete but not of equivalent use (e.g. assembly is not as useful as Rust in the vast majority of programming domains). Things like "writing PHP/Python programs" and "document editing", while things that you can do on a pocket-sized laptop, are much better to do on a real laptop or desktop. A tiny PC will strain your eyes, decrease your reading, typing and interaction speed, hurt your neck, and react slowly relative to a full computer - regardless of whether you're using a soft-keyboard or a physical (but tiny) hardware keyboard. Although ElCheapo may have thrown a lot of unnecessary junk into their comments, their point "The medium is the message, the form is the functionality." is still true - you don't want to use C# for tiny (kilobytes RAM) embedded devices and you don't want to use this pocket PC for writing code, even though you can.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    I used to think the only proper way of reading books is paper (or at least large format eink) but I see most people these days reading from tiny phone screens. Thanks to increased mobility they easily do it where it's too much hassle for me. For many people with good eyesight it is just fine to use a small screen for programming.
    - throw10920 4y ago
      Whether or not a large number of people do something isn't really relevant to whether its efficient or healthy. Many people in the US have addictions to social media (unhealthy) and use few keyboard shortcuts (inefficient) and draft emails on phone keyboards (inefficient). It's also not fine to use a small screen for programming even if you have good eyesight, as it will worsen your eyesight even if you hold it as far away from your body as you can with your arms straight - the constant focusing on an object near your face will cause your eye muscles to weaken and give you myopia. You'll also damage your neck unless you hold your phone at eye (or at least chest) level - something that I've seen literally nobody do.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
- danans 4y ago
  > * Writing PHP programms > * Writing python programms Honest question: what is a real world use case for writing PHP or Python programs on a tiny laptop with a 7" display that wouldn't be better served by a 13" laptop. I can't imagine writing code while standing on a train, for example. But more important, I'm having trouble imagining what kind of work situation would require that.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > Honest question: what is a real world use case for writing PHP or Python programs on a tiny laptop with a 7" display that wouldn't be better served by a 13" laptop A computer you can take everywhere when you need to squeeze in extra computer-time into any unplanned free moment opportunistically (e.g. Leetcode practice, dissertation crunch), or being on call and only need ssh & chat access 24/7. I carried a high-DPI 7" tablet with a keyboard case to good effect. It was less of a physical burden than lugging around a 13-incher, and was inconspicuous when outdoors or places I may have felt unsafe carrying a laptop
    - danans 4y ago
      > It was less of a physical burden than lugging around a 13-incher, I guess this is a very personal thing, but I've always found the weight difference between a 7" tablet and a slim 13" laptop to be pretty minimal, and I walk-commute on average 3 miles a day carrying a laptop. > and was inconspicuous when outdoors or places I may have felt unsafe carrying a laptop It's probably a lifestyle choice, but if I were to feel unsafe using a laptop in a space, I probably wouldn't be able to focus enough to work, and instead of using a less conspicuous device, I would relocate somewhere that I felt safe. Also if I were on-call I would doubly want to be in a place where I felt I could focus completely on my work. I don't doubt that the market niche for inconspicuous general purpose computing devices exists, but I don't think it's huge.
      - rchaud 4y ago
        It doesn't have to only be about safety. I can't use my MBP 13 on the fold out tray of a coach seat. There are times where a less conspicuous device comes in handy.
- riedel 4y ago
  Playing text adventures was a nice past time. I had Psion those days and a Nokia 6800. I really wonder what it would be like to have a nice android phone with a keyboard those days... But I guess this is mostly nostalgia.
- ynx 4y ago
  As the owner of a PinePhone with the battery+keyboard...it's hot garbage at most of those. Pass. I'll take a laptop.
brokenkebab2 4y ago
For example I could prepare presentations with it, or deal with long emails, and write code - all day long. While it was less comfortable compared to full-sized PC, it was normal, alright. Appearing in the same situation with any modern smartphone I would surrender immediately, because it would be literally crippling experience. Not to mention that it was technically much more flexible.
tluyben2 4y ago
When I travelled a lot, I just brought a pocket Linux machine with keyboard (first the Zaurus, then Pandora, then GDP Pocket 1) and that was all a lot more comfortable hauling along than my laptop. I didn't have to do stretches of programming, but for small changes, or some server management, it was great. I am waiting for the Astro Slide with Linux to arrive.
INTPenis 4y ago
I had one, my brother had one, honestly it was shit at everything you expect from a phone. The only good point about it was that it had a full and integrated keyboard, and a Linux based OS you could use to manage your servers over ssh in extreme cases. Answering calls on it was a hit or miss, the UI just froze for several seconds from the incredible stress of suddenly starting up the phone app when someone called you. I'd much rather 1) separate my work from my personal life and 2) have a laptop in a backpack for when I know I might have to do work.
unregistereddev 4y ago
The integrated keyboard had a tab key, so autocomplete worked on the terminal. This was a really big deal that made the tiny keyboard much more useful for real work. The Maemo distribution that the N900 ran was based on debian, and you could point apt to the standard package repositories to install pretty much any Linux software. This opened many, many possibilities - for example, I had an always-on computer in my pocket with WireShark installed. I could (and did) occasionally sniff wireless traffic to troubleshoot something. If you couldn't find a mobile app that would do what you wanted, you could usually install a desktop app and it'd work (though sometimes the UI was awkward on that small screen). While most of the functionality can be replicated on a modern Android device, these pocket computers were different in a special way. The integrated physical keyboard, the tab key, the full Linux kernel and apt, all combined to create an experience that was distinctly different from Android. It really felt like a pocket-sized workstation - it was a full computer first, and pocket-sized second. Android smartphones are pocket-sized mobile devices first, and potential workstations second.
type0 4y ago
> It was amazing at doing.... what? at being general purpose computer

walterbell 4y ago

Maemo is being rebooted, based on Devuan, for N900, PinePhone and other devices, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32699853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32699853

thereddaikon 4y ago

having a keyboard does not a PC make. The N900 was great to type on by cellphone standards but it was still a cell phone. Maemo is not a PC OS. It did not do what a PC did.

PopePompus 4y ago
You could easily (and I did) put a full Debian user space on the N900, and maintain all the cell phone functionality. It offered a pretty complete Linux experience.
selfhoster11 4y ago
N900 was a great deal closer to a PC OS than any release of Android I've seen past Android 2.x. It even has X11 and a built in, honest-to-goodness version of apt! You can't say that about many phones these days. I'm almost sure that with enough swearing and elbow grease I could replace the entire GUI with something that I can write myself to be tailor-made to my needs. Doing anything even close to this for Android seems like a daunting task.

thom_ 4y ago

I remember vividly smashing the stylus into the unresponsive tft screen until it broke in a white rage. The n900 totally sucked, although it did look neat. The wifi sucked, the screen sucked, no capacitive touch. Also the battery sucked like one and a half hours screentime. And the apps they sucked. Oh and it was slow enough every webpage loaded would have you near tears in anticipation. But - to nokias credit, it did fit into your pocket, helpfully to compensate for the wad of cash absent after the purchase.