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Can we stop with this absolute fantasy about PCs that "fit in your pocket"? The medium is the message, the form is the functionality. Smartphones have been "p

Can we stop with this absolute fantasy about PCs that "fit in your pocket"? The medium is the message, the form is the functionality. Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already, but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited. You can't type effectively, your screen is small, your battery is limited. Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? How about XFCE? Or GNOME? No, for a Smart TV we have purposefully made OSs that are limited in functionality such as Kodi, LibreELEC and others specifically because of the type of inputs and outputs needed. I think the only way we could ever get a portable PC experience on the go is by having AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard and touchpad by somehow analyzing our hand movements on a hard surface in front of us. But that's only if we get to a point where said devices are fast and hold a decent battery, which, with current technology, is impossible.

stonogo 4y ago
My whole family uses essentially a TV with GNOME running on an attached micropc. We use something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Android-Gimibox-Wireless-Keyboard-Projector/dp/B07WJGSXT8/ https://www.amazon.com/Android-Gimibox-Wireless-Keyboard-Pro... Works like a Wiimote. We don't have to limit functionality, we just launch a web browser and have the streaming services on the bookmark toolbar. None of our visitors have ever had problems operating this system, even ones who have never heard of linux or GNOME or Wiimotes. You just flip the remote over to type text into the search box. When the keyboard side is "up," the motion pointer and the "bottom side" is disabled. Flip the remote and the keyboard is disabled and the motion control resumes. Intuitive as hell, works great. My point is that minor adaptations can lead to surprisingly pleasant functionality. Past failures are not reasons to stop trying new things; they're reasons to try other new things.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  Your set up works because you tailored both the hardware and the software to make up for the shortcomings of the devices. Normally a TV remote doesn't have a full fledged keyboard attached to it, so many applications become borderline unusable. What you did is enhance the inputs of your device and this opened up many more possibilities. You also tweaked the software from its ootb configuration to make operations smoother. None of these devices attempt doing something similar. They offer less options than normal computers and their desktop is left unchanged. Lastly, what you wrote actually proves my point. You are not using your linux system to do everything a computer does. Your set of functionalities is limited to media consumption and as such you just had to find a workaround for your use case. Could you browse (or even write) your emails on your TV? Sure, but you'd have to use a heavily customized UI and UX if you don't want people to squint their eyes and take ages to navigate everything. And who's going to write such a program? And what about all the other applications that we expect a complete system to have such as a general purpose web browser, a video player, a file browser, etc.? My whole point is that these "pocketable PCs" might be great for a subset of problems, but they have to be tailored for them. They are terrible general computing devices.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    You're just making things up. Your "heavily customized UI" is bumping up the font sizes by a couple of points.
    - ElCheapo 4y ago
      Try "bumping the font size up" in Thunderbird and tell me how nicely it scales on your TV
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Yeah, we browse all the time on it. Especially IMDB. I'm not sure what part of "it works fine" is confusing you. > None of these devices attempt doing something similar. They offer less options than normal computers and their desktop is left unchanged. They have swappable SoCs at their cores, including available on-board FPGA, and the existing product ships a customized Sway UI by default. They are far more configurable than other laptops. One person already modified her mainboard to include a different charging circuit and added an ergonomic keyboard. You have gone from pessimism to outright misinformation in pursuit of your argument. Ask yourself whether you're here to discuss the topic or just win internet debates.
noduerme 4y ago
Well.. I mean, I've been using $100 PCs-on-a-stick for about a decade now, plugging them into hotel room TVs or my projector at home or wherever I go... just need a cheap wireless keyboard/trackpad. I use that for about half my home entertainment viewing as well. Definitely no need to strap hardware to my head to game/code/surf on a big screen with a tiny device.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  Yes, and people brought their Machintoshes 512k to work with a bag. I sincerely don't understand how your PC-on-a-stick experience has any relation to what I was talking about. You have to connect it to a screen and bring your own peripherals. I don't believe that's what people think when they hear "pocketable PC".
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    For one, a PC on a stick is much lighter than a Macintosh 512k. And it has no CRT or hard drive that can be smashed during transport. You can slip it into a work backpack or briefcase - try doing that with the Macintosh. You do have to bring your own peripherals, but being able to move your computer around previously set-up work points is already an improvement from not being able to carry it at all, or carrying around a laptop.
    - ElCheapo 4y ago
      I used the Machintosh example because the use case you're talking about is a completely old fashioned way of intending "portable computing". Portable computing currently means being able to take your device out of your pocket and being able to use it on the go. The Intel stick certainly has its uses, but are unrelated from the topic at hand and strikes me as just an excuse to share something you do that you think is cool.
      - selfhoster11 4y ago
        There's no reason the MNT Reform cannot be used both on the go and in a docking station. The parent likes to use an "old fashioned" (I disagree with that judgement, but fine) paradigm of portability, so what? Does that make it a less valid choice? "Portable" is a generic term that's not reserved for discussions of any specific kind of portability, so why not coin/use a specific term for "fits in your pocket and is usable on the train" if you need one, rather than silently assume?
badsectoracula 4y ago
> Can we stop with this absolute fantasy about PCs that "fit in your pocket"? No, because it isn't fantasy and i want those PCs that "fit in my pocket" - after all they do exist, see GPD's pocketable PCs. > Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already Smartphones have their on OSes, UX, applications, etc. The point of projects like GPD Win or the one linked above is to run the same programs, OS, etc as you'd run on a regular laptop or a desktop PC. And this is something that can be useful, even if it isn't at the same frequency as a smartphone - they do not have the same use after all. Personally i have a GPD Win 1 which is pretty much the same form factor as the pocketable PC linked in the article (actually it is better IMO because the joysticks and back buttons it has are used very naturally to move the mouse cursor on the desktop and act as a mouse). I do not use it daily but whenever i want to go somewhere briefly and need a PC (e.g. i need to show a project of mine to someone), i pick that up instead of my laptop: it is much lighter (its weight barely registers), it fits in my fanny bag next to my smartphone and provides pretty much the same functionality as a regular laptop - it is just weaker and slightly more awkward to type on. But i'm not going to write code for hours straight on it anyway, so it doesn't matter. However i do use the keyboard frequently, for command line or shortcuts or whatever, and it is miles better than something like Termux and/or the virtual touchscreen keyboards you'd find in smartphones (which with swipe typing are decent but fail at everything else). The main issue with the linked PC is that it is ARM instead of x86 which IMO limits its utility. I can run any old application on my GPD Win 1 and for my own applications i can just copy the binaries to it directly but for something like the MNT Pocket i'd need to cross compile just for it and it is limited to stuff that i can do that.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
  https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket/ https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket/
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  I think you're being extremely vague about the things you are using your GDP for. Nothing you've written strikes me as something that couldn't be achieved with a proper I/O module attached to a smartphone.
danparsonson 4y ago
>...AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard... That sounds only slightly more dreadful than the touchscreen keyboard experience we have currently; I seem to be in a minority but proper tactile keyboards, even tiny ones, are worlds better IMO. The best phone I ever had for input was a Blackberry Bold 9700, and I miss that keyboard almost literally every single time I type something on my magic screen.
- wvenable 4y ago
  You'll be happy to know that the current trend is to combine AR/VR with a physical keyboard. The Quest has an option to bring your physical Bluetooth keyboard into VR -- it only supports a small subset of models right now, though.
yosamino 4y ago
No. It's not a fantasy. The Nokia N900 was amazing. It functioned as a phone with a touchscreen to deliver the experience that had now become the dominant one. But also, by sliding up the screen, it had a fully featured keyboard, and essentially transmogrified into a "pc that fits into your pocket". So you could with a one handed push go from the touchscreen-only experience back to edit documents by using a combination of the keyboard and the touchscreen (with a stylus if neccessary). I stopped using it because it lost software support and then the touchscreen stopped working, but I have it sitting here at my desk. Every phone I have used since has been worse.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  It was amazing at doing.... what? You've just listed a bunch of hardware functionalities without actually saying what you managed to use it for.
  - Morgawr 4y ago
    They mentioned editing documents
  - yosamino 4y ago
    All the things you would use a phone for in the early 2010s: * Phone calls * Video calls over XMPP * Text/XMPP messaging * Web browsing * Document editing * Writing and receiving email * Playing music ( it had a built in FM transmitter - how cool was that!) * Setting Alarms * weather widgets * Writing PHP programms * Writing python programms * ssh-ing into servers * gps navigation * take and share pictures * multi-colored status LEDs * it had usb-otg so you could use as a flash drive * share an gsm internet connection via USB Some of these things work better with a touch screen - some work better with a slide-out physical keyboard... it was just a really good device.
    - ElCheapo 4y ago
      Was my post confusing? Nothing you've written can't be done with an Android phone with a keyboard attachment. When is this super important general purpose computing thingy supposed to come into play?
mdp2021 4y ago
> having AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard and touchpad by somehow analyzing our hand movements [...] only if ... fast and hold a decent battery I have been there. Speed and battery do not seem to be much of a problem - even with the not-recentmost technology I use, there have been laptops which "do" and last less. While having a quite decent resolution, the displays do not replace the real world experience for offering virtual keyboards - better input systems must be adopted. Mobile systems are not «"dumbed down"»: they have more frequently found leaner options depending on the main purpose of the device, but you do e.g. control Android with physical keyboards, complete with shortcuts and function keys.
mastazi 4y ago
> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? How about XFCE? Or GNOME? No Yes. After struggling with every single type of Smart TV platform (Google TV, Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV). I settled for a Linux HTPC that I control with a Logitech K400. I finally found what I needed and I'm never going back to looking for crappy apps on some semi-empty store. Walled gardens are really sad. You just need a remote with QWERTY and trackpad, and a few adjustments to the OS (e.g. 125% UI scaling works pretty well for me).
- MikusR 4y ago
  You didn't even list the two most popular platforms LG WebOS and Samsung Tizen.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  >You just need a remote with QWERTY and trackpad Sure, if you change your requirements and sidestep mine then everything becomes easy. Now try doing the same with an actual TV remote, which my question actually asked about.
  - mastazi 4y ago
    Is there some law that mandates using a remote? I don't really understand your point
    - ElCheapo 4y ago
      Using Linux on a TV is not the same as using a TV as a general computing device. You still use it as a media consumption machine, and that's why you've been able to set it up accordingly. Now what if I asked you to set up your TV to do everything I do on my general purpose laptop or desktop computer? It would suck, plain and simple.
      - mastazi 4y ago
        Yes, this is true, point taken, I wouldn't try and use that TV to do work. But, as a streaming machine, it is really awesome, I get a level of flexibility that Apple/Google/Fire TV would never allow. But I agree with you, it's not going to replace my desktop or my laptop any time soon.
otikik 4y ago
They are dumbed down primarily because it suits the interests of their manufacturers. The UI hurdles exist, but are secondary to that.
squarefoot 4y ago
> Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already, but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited. I wish it was only about the i/o: pocket Bluetooth keyboards, mice and other i/o devices would be just a few bucks away. No, the problem is rather that phones/tablets use crippled dumbed down and tight closed operating systems that offer only a small fraction of the power a real computer offers, not to mention the huge privacy and security issues involved. Having the same hardware performance and storage of a good laptop means nothing if the OS doesn't offer a way to use it in a transparent and trustworthy way.
- ElCheapo 4y ago
  What is stopping you from adapting AOSP to have better keyboard integration? Android has been modified before to adapt to folding screens, tablets and multiple screens.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    Locked bootloaders, for one. Even if you can unlock it, there's a disincentive to do so thanks to losing the SafetyNet status - which will brick a whole range of apps that refuse to run if it's not intact.
  - type0 4y ago
    What particular hardware are you talking about? What good is AOSP when most of the firmware is closed sourced.
margarina72 4y ago
> but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited More likely because low-level artificial limitation are in place, preventing the full use of the device.
conorcleary 4y ago
The cellular phone is as 'personal' computer as the masses will ever adopt. It's the ultimate PC.
causi 4y ago
Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? You're reminding me of how nice it would be if smart TV remotes did come with thumb boards built in.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? Kinda, if the remote had a useable keyboard (I think some do). Mostly I would like a universal search: to be able to type the name of a show, channel, or other media source and have all relevant apps or TV functions that can play it come up. Also it would be cool to enter something like "seek MM:SS" to tell the current media to go to that precise point, and universal commands across all players/apps would be pretty keen, like "captions off", "language XXXX", etc. Just need a TAB key for autocomplete.
bombcar 4y ago
The HP Palmtop (200LX for life) was an entire 80186 PC with CGA graphics that fit in a pocket. In 2000. We can certainly do better than that now if we want to.
- Grumbledour 4y ago
  Maybe we can't? I have been wondering about that for quite some time now. We have been talking about ubiquitous computing for a long time, but instead of doing that, it seems we have settled on using smartphones for everything, retiring specialized or underpowered devices in their favor, even if they are just 60% as good as their predecessors. When a company tries to build something in this niche, it seems we need as much power as possible to make it potentially as mass appealing as possible, which in turn means tradeoffs in many other areas (size, heat, battery life, software etc.) that make it unappealing to most but a small minority. Now, it would seem easy to create a specialized device by putting some constraints on it, right? Make a computer optimized for writers! Make one optimized for day planing! Make one that is not good for playing video or games but great for spreadsheets etc. These devices could excel at their given niche and give us back advantages like weeks long battery life or incredible small size etc. But it seems, no one is willing to work with these constraints. Of course, also no one seems to be capable to create custom software, which I guess these devices would also need to be good at what they were supposed to do. Sometimes you find these things in small, specialized markets, but even then they always seem to be not really much better or even worse than what we had in the 90s. I am not sure if it is because of market dynamics or lack of vision, but all we ever seem to get are compromises.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    In the 90s the market was new and fresh and nobody really knew what would sell, so people were gambling on many variations of product. Now we know what sells, and it's an iPhone or an iPhone wannabe. Nobody wants to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that isn't a phone, so nobody does the development to mass-produce these items. Notice how phones were wildly insanely weird before the iPhone and very quickly afterwards they were all black slabs? You'd probably have more luck cannibalizing the 200LX and shoving a phone inside it.
RockingGoodNite 4y ago
>> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? Yes. We've been doing it for years since we cut the cord from cable TV. We switched to a plain PC (Lennovo low end laptop for $200) running Ubuntu and use an Air Remote (combination mouse/keyboard) around $15 on Amazon and watch all content in Chrome. It's great! I can get a shell and change things if I want, ssh in from my office desktop, etc.
thereddaikon 4y ago
You get it. While it is possible to cram PC features into a pocket-able design. And other commenters here have given examples such as the old pocket pc standard. Its not very good and didn't stick around. The user interface and format will in large part define the kind of work you will do on a device. Pocket sized devices suck for a lot of "real work" use cases because small and limited inputs combined with small screens don't make for a pleasurable or productive work experience. Big displays and comfortable full sized keyboards are necessity. There has been on and off talk about dock-able pocket sized devices that can transition between being mobile and being proper PCs with the use of a dock that expands its IO options. But the software has always seemed to be lacking there. Apps on my Pixel 5a sometimes get the screen orientation wrong. How can I trust them to seamlessly switch between a mobile and desktop experience and not freak out in the process?
dTal 4y ago
>I think the only way we could ever get a portable PC experience on the go is by having AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard and touchpad by somehow analyzing our hand movements on a hard surface in front of us. Or you could buy a GPD Micro PC and save a lot of trouble. It's a full x86 laptop the size of a chunky smartphone, and it's totally practical to use it as a PC.
fsflover 4y ago
No. It's not a fantasy. Librem 5 and Pinephone are real and working great. You can even connect them to a keyboard and screen and you get a desktop.
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  For some definition of “great”. My Librem 5 won’t last through the day even if I’m not particularly running anything. I agree with the general sentiment and want a device like this, but I’ve never had one that worked as well as my old N900.
rchaud 4y ago
> Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already, but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited. Wrong. Smartphones are dumbed down because the manufacturers would greatly prefer that you not run any kind of software that they or their partners did not directly provide. The iOS App Store would have been barer than a Soviet grocery store if iOS supported Flash. The fact that a full computing device in your pocket cannot be used to build and deploy applications makes it not much more useful than a color PDA from 2005.
teawrecks 4y ago
Can we stop with the normal HN cynicism? Let people try stuff. If you don't like it, that's ok, keep scrolling.
freedomben 4y ago
Android phones have mostly been this for years. most of them don't have the physical keyboard built in obviously, but you can buy all sorts of different pocket-sized keyboards[1] that often include a touchpad, and can plug in via USB OTG (which can be a wireless receiver) or through bluetooth. Add an app like Termux and I could (if I had to) live on the thing. [1]: I used this one for a while: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D2BG6R5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D2BG6R5/ref=ppx_yo_dt... [2]: This one is awesome too with android TV: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WJGSXT8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WJGSXT8/ref=ppx_yo_dt...

stonogo 4y ago

My whole family uses essentially a TV with GNOME running on an attached micropc. We use something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Android-Gimibox-Wireless-Keyboard-Projector/dp/B07WJGSXT8/ https://www.amazon.com/Android-Gimibox-Wireless-Keyboard-Pro... Works like a Wiimote. We don't have to limit functionality, we just launch a web browser and have the streaming services on the bookmark toolbar. None of our visitors have ever had problems operating this system, even ones who have never heard of linux or GNOME or Wiimotes. You just flip the remote over to type text into the search box. When the keyboard side is "up," the motion pointer and the "bottom side" is disabled. Flip the remote and the keyboard is disabled and the motion control resumes. Intuitive as hell, works great. My point is that minor adaptations can lead to surprisingly pleasant functionality. Past failures are not reasons to stop trying new things; they're reasons to try other new things.

ElCheapo 4y ago
Your set up works because you tailored both the hardware and the software to make up for the shortcomings of the devices. Normally a TV remote doesn't have a full fledged keyboard attached to it, so many applications become borderline unusable. What you did is enhance the inputs of your device and this opened up many more possibilities. You also tweaked the software from its ootb configuration to make operations smoother. None of these devices attempt doing something similar. They offer less options than normal computers and their desktop is left unchanged. Lastly, what you wrote actually proves my point. You are not using your linux system to do everything a computer does. Your set of functionalities is limited to media consumption and as such you just had to find a workaround for your use case. Could you browse (or even write) your emails on your TV? Sure, but you'd have to use a heavily customized UI and UX if you don't want people to squint their eyes and take ages to navigate everything. And who's going to write such a program? And what about all the other applications that we expect a complete system to have such as a general purpose web browser, a video player, a file browser, etc.? My whole point is that these "pocketable PCs" might be great for a subset of problems, but they have to be tailored for them. They are terrible general computing devices.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  You're just making things up. Your "heavily customized UI" is bumping up the font sizes by a couple of points.
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    Try "bumping the font size up" in Thunderbird and tell me how nicely it scales on your TV
- stonogo 4y ago
  Yeah, we browse all the time on it. Especially IMDB. I'm not sure what part of "it works fine" is confusing you. > None of these devices attempt doing something similar. They offer less options than normal computers and their desktop is left unchanged. They have swappable SoCs at their cores, including available on-board FPGA, and the existing product ships a customized Sway UI by default. They are far more configurable than other laptops. One person already modified her mainboard to include a different charging circuit and added an ergonomic keyboard. You have gone from pessimism to outright misinformation in pursuit of your argument. Ask yourself whether you're here to discuss the topic or just win internet debates.

noduerme 4y ago

Well.. I mean, I've been using $100 PCs-on-a-stick for about a decade now, plugging them into hotel room TVs or my projector at home or wherever I go... just need a cheap wireless keyboard/trackpad. I use that for about half my home entertainment viewing as well. Definitely no need to strap hardware to my head to game/code/surf on a big screen with a tiny device.

ElCheapo 4y ago
Yes, and people brought their Machintoshes 512k to work with a bag. I sincerely don't understand how your PC-on-a-stick experience has any relation to what I was talking about. You have to connect it to a screen and bring your own peripherals. I don't believe that's what people think when they hear "pocketable PC".
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  For one, a PC on a stick is much lighter than a Macintosh 512k. And it has no CRT or hard drive that can be smashed during transport. You can slip it into a work backpack or briefcase - try doing that with the Macintosh. You do have to bring your own peripherals, but being able to move your computer around previously set-up work points is already an improvement from not being able to carry it at all, or carrying around a laptop.
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    I used the Machintosh example because the use case you're talking about is a completely old fashioned way of intending "portable computing". Portable computing currently means being able to take your device out of your pocket and being able to use it on the go. The Intel stick certainly has its uses, but are unrelated from the topic at hand and strikes me as just an excuse to share something you do that you think is cool.
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      There's no reason the MNT Reform cannot be used both on the go and in a docking station. The parent likes to use an "old fashioned" (I disagree with that judgement, but fine) paradigm of portability, so what? Does that make it a less valid choice? "Portable" is a generic term that's not reserved for discussions of any specific kind of portability, so why not coin/use a specific term for "fits in your pocket and is usable on the train" if you need one, rather than silently assume?

badsectoracula 4y ago

> Can we stop with this absolute fantasy about PCs that "fit in your pocket"? No, because it isn't fantasy and i want those PCs that "fit in my pocket" - after all they do exist, see GPD's pocketable PCs. > Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already Smartphones have their on OSes, UX, applications, etc. The point of projects like GPD Win or the one linked above is to run the same programs, OS, etc as you'd run on a regular laptop or a desktop PC. And this is something that can be useful, even if it isn't at the same frequency as a smartphone - they do not have the same use after all. Personally i have a GPD Win 1 which is pretty much the same form factor as the pocketable PC linked in the article (actually it is better IMO because the joysticks and back buttons it has are used very naturally to move the mouse cursor on the desktop and act as a mouse). I do not use it daily but whenever i want to go somewhere briefly and need a PC (e.g. i need to show a project of mine to someone), i pick that up instead of my laptop: it is much lighter (its weight barely registers), it fits in my fanny bag next to my smartphone and provides pretty much the same functionality as a regular laptop - it is just weaker and slightly more awkward to type on. But i'm not going to write code for hours straight on it anyway, so it doesn't matter. However i do use the keyboard frequently, for command line or shortcuts or whatever, and it is miles better than something like Termux and/or the virtual touchscreen keyboards you'd find in smartphones (which with swipe typing are decent but fail at everything else). The main issue with the linked PC is that it is ARM instead of x86 which IMO limits its utility. I can run any old application on my GPD Win 1 and for my own applications i can just copy the binaries to it directly but for something like the MNT Pocket i'd need to cross compile just for it and it is limited to stuff that i can do that.

1vuio0pswjnm7 4y ago
https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket/ https://www.gpd.hk/gpdpocket/
ElCheapo 4y ago
I think you're being extremely vague about the things you are using your GDP for. Nothing you've written strikes me as something that couldn't be achieved with a proper I/O module attached to a smartphone.

danparsonson 4y ago

>...AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard... That sounds only slightly more dreadful than the touchscreen keyboard experience we have currently; I seem to be in a minority but proper tactile keyboards, even tiny ones, are worlds better IMO. The best phone I ever had for input was a Blackberry Bold 9700, and I miss that keyboard almost literally every single time I type something on my magic screen.

wvenable 4y ago
You'll be happy to know that the current trend is to combine AR/VR with a physical keyboard. The Quest has an option to bring your physical Bluetooth keyboard into VR -- it only supports a small subset of models right now, though.

yosamino 4y ago

No. It's not a fantasy. The Nokia N900 was amazing. It functioned as a phone with a touchscreen to deliver the experience that had now become the dominant one. But also, by sliding up the screen, it had a fully featured keyboard, and essentially transmogrified into a "pc that fits into your pocket". So you could with a one handed push go from the touchscreen-only experience back to edit documents by using a combination of the keyboard and the touchscreen (with a stylus if neccessary). I stopped using it because it lost software support and then the touchscreen stopped working, but I have it sitting here at my desk. Every phone I have used since has been worse.

ElCheapo 4y ago
It was amazing at doing.... what? You've just listed a bunch of hardware functionalities without actually saying what you managed to use it for.
- Morgawr 4y ago
  They mentioned editing documents
- yosamino 4y ago
  All the things you would use a phone for in the early 2010s: * Phone calls * Video calls over XMPP * Text/XMPP messaging * Web browsing * Document editing * Writing and receiving email * Playing music ( it had a built in FM transmitter - how cool was that!) * Setting Alarms * weather widgets * Writing PHP programms * Writing python programms * ssh-ing into servers * gps navigation * take and share pictures * multi-colored status LEDs * it had usb-otg so you could use as a flash drive * share an gsm internet connection via USB Some of these things work better with a touch screen - some work better with a slide-out physical keyboard... it was just a really good device.
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    Was my post confusing? Nothing you've written can't be done with an Android phone with a keyboard attachment. When is this super important general purpose computing thingy supposed to come into play?

mdp2021 4y ago

> having AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard and touchpad by somehow analyzing our hand movements [...] only if ... fast and hold a decent battery I have been there. Speed and battery do not seem to be much of a problem - even with the not-recentmost technology I use, there have been laptops which "do" and last less. While having a quite decent resolution, the displays do not replace the real world experience for offering virtual keyboards - better input systems must be adopted. Mobile systems are not «"dumbed down"»: they have more frequently found leaner options depending on the main purpose of the device, but you do e.g. control Android with physical keyboards, complete with shortcuts and function keys.

mastazi 4y ago

> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? How about XFCE? Or GNOME? No Yes. After struggling with every single type of Smart TV platform (Google TV, Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV). I settled for a Linux HTPC that I control with a Logitech K400. I finally found what I needed and I'm never going back to looking for crappy apps on some semi-empty store. Walled gardens are really sad. You just need a remote with QWERTY and trackpad, and a few adjustments to the OS (e.g. 125% UI scaling works pretty well for me).

MikusR 4y ago
You didn't even list the two most popular platforms LG WebOS and Samsung Tizen.
ElCheapo 4y ago
>You just need a remote with QWERTY and trackpad Sure, if you change your requirements and sidestep mine then everything becomes easy. Now try doing the same with an actual TV remote, which my question actually asked about.
- mastazi 4y ago
  Is there some law that mandates using a remote? I don't really understand your point
  - ElCheapo 4y ago
    Using Linux on a TV is not the same as using a TV as a general computing device. You still use it as a media consumption machine, and that's why you've been able to set it up accordingly. Now what if I asked you to set up your TV to do everything I do on my general purpose laptop or desktop computer? It would suck, plain and simple.
    - mastazi 4y ago
      Yes, this is true, point taken, I wouldn't try and use that TV to do work. But, as a streaming machine, it is really awesome, I get a level of flexibility that Apple/Google/Fire TV would never allow. But I agree with you, it's not going to replace my desktop or my laptop any time soon.

otikik 4y ago

They are dumbed down primarily because it suits the interests of their manufacturers. The UI hurdles exist, but are secondary to that.

squarefoot 4y ago

> Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already, but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited. I wish it was only about the i/o: pocket Bluetooth keyboards, mice and other i/o devices would be just a few bucks away. No, the problem is rather that phones/tablets use crippled dumbed down and tight closed operating systems that offer only a small fraction of the power a real computer offers, not to mention the huge privacy and security issues involved. Having the same hardware performance and storage of a good laptop means nothing if the OS doesn't offer a way to use it in a transparent and trustworthy way.

ElCheapo 4y ago
What is stopping you from adapting AOSP to have better keyboard integration? Android has been modified before to adapt to folding screens, tablets and multiple screens.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  Locked bootloaders, for one. Even if you can unlock it, there's a disincentive to do so thanks to losing the SafetyNet status - which will brick a whole range of apps that refuse to run if it's not intact.
- type0 4y ago
  What particular hardware are you talking about? What good is AOSP when most of the firmware is closed sourced.

margarina72 4y ago

> but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited More likely because low-level artificial limitation are in place, preventing the full use of the device.

conorcleary 4y ago

The cellular phone is as 'personal' computer as the masses will ever adopt. It's the ultimate PC.

causi 4y ago

Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? You're reminding me of how nice it would be if smart TV remotes did come with thumb boards built in.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? Kinda, if the remote had a useable keyboard (I think some do). Mostly I would like a universal search: to be able to type the name of a show, channel, or other media source and have all relevant apps or TV functions that can play it come up. Also it would be cool to enter something like "seek MM:SS" to tell the current media to go to that precise point, and universal commands across all players/apps would be pretty keen, like "captions off", "language XXXX", etc. Just need a TAB key for autocomplete.

bombcar 4y ago

The HP Palmtop (200LX for life) was an entire 80186 PC with CGA graphics that fit in a pocket. In 2000. We can certainly do better than that now if we want to.

Grumbledour 4y ago
Maybe we can't? I have been wondering about that for quite some time now. We have been talking about ubiquitous computing for a long time, but instead of doing that, it seems we have settled on using smartphones for everything, retiring specialized or underpowered devices in their favor, even if they are just 60% as good as their predecessors. When a company tries to build something in this niche, it seems we need as much power as possible to make it potentially as mass appealing as possible, which in turn means tradeoffs in many other areas (size, heat, battery life, software etc.) that make it unappealing to most but a small minority. Now, it would seem easy to create a specialized device by putting some constraints on it, right? Make a computer optimized for writers! Make one optimized for day planing! Make one that is not good for playing video or games but great for spreadsheets etc. These devices could excel at their given niche and give us back advantages like weeks long battery life or incredible small size etc. But it seems, no one is willing to work with these constraints. Of course, also no one seems to be capable to create custom software, which I guess these devices would also need to be good at what they were supposed to do. Sometimes you find these things in small, specialized markets, but even then they always seem to be not really much better or even worse than what we had in the 90s. I am not sure if it is because of market dynamics or lack of vision, but all we ever seem to get are compromises.
- bombcar 4y ago
  In the 90s the market was new and fresh and nobody really knew what would sell, so people were gambling on many variations of product. Now we know what sells, and it's an iPhone or an iPhone wannabe. Nobody wants to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that isn't a phone, so nobody does the development to mass-produce these items. Notice how phones were wildly insanely weird before the iPhone and very quickly afterwards they were all black slabs? You'd probably have more luck cannibalizing the 200LX and shoving a phone inside it.

RockingGoodNite 4y ago

>> Would you want a command line interface on your Smart TV using only a remote? Yes. We've been doing it for years since we cut the cord from cable TV. We switched to a plain PC (Lennovo low end laptop for $200) running Ubuntu and use an Air Remote (combination mouse/keyboard) around $15 on Amazon and watch all content in Chrome. It's great! I can get a shell and change things if I want, ssh in from my office desktop, etc.

thereddaikon 4y ago

You get it. While it is possible to cram PC features into a pocket-able design. And other commenters here have given examples such as the old pocket pc standard. Its not very good and didn't stick around. The user interface and format will in large part define the kind of work you will do on a device. Pocket sized devices suck for a lot of "real work" use cases because small and limited inputs combined with small screens don't make for a pleasurable or productive work experience. Big displays and comfortable full sized keyboards are necessity. There has been on and off talk about dock-able pocket sized devices that can transition between being mobile and being proper PCs with the use of a dock that expands its IO options. But the software has always seemed to be lacking there. Apps on my Pixel 5a sometimes get the screen orientation wrong. How can I trust them to seamlessly switch between a mobile and desktop experience and not freak out in the process?

dTal 4y ago

>I think the only way we could ever get a portable PC experience on the go is by having AR glasses project a full desktop in front of us and let us control it with an imaginary keyboard and touchpad by somehow analyzing our hand movements on a hard surface in front of us. Or you could buy a GPD Micro PC and save a lot of trouble. It's a full x86 laptop the size of a chunky smartphone, and it's totally practical to use it as a PC.

fsflover 4y ago

No. It's not a fantasy. Librem 5 and Pinephone are real and working great. You can even connect them to a keyboard and screen and you get a desktop.

ryukafalz 4y ago
For some definition of “great”. My Librem 5 won’t last through the day even if I’m not particularly running anything. I agree with the general sentiment and want a device like this, but I’ve never had one that worked as well as my old N900.

rchaud 4y ago

> Smartphones have been "pocketable PCs" for more than a decade already, but are dumbed down because their inputs and outputs are limited. Wrong. Smartphones are dumbed down because the manufacturers would greatly prefer that you not run any kind of software that they or their partners did not directly provide. The iOS App Store would have been barer than a Soviet grocery store if iOS supported Flash. The fact that a full computing device in your pocket cannot be used to build and deploy applications makes it not much more useful than a color PDA from 2005.

teawrecks 4y ago

Can we stop with the normal HN cynicism? Let people try stuff. If you don't like it, that's ok, keep scrolling.

freedomben 4y ago

Android phones have mostly been this for years. most of them don't have the physical keyboard built in obviously, but you can buy all sorts of different pocket-sized keyboards[1] that often include a touchpad, and can plug in via USB OTG (which can be a wireless receiver) or through bluetooth. Add an app like Termux and I could (if I had to) live on the thing. [1]: I used this one for a while: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D2BG6R5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D2BG6R5/ref=ppx_yo_dt... [2]: This one is awesome too with android TV: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WJGSXT8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WJGSXT8/ref=ppx_yo_dt...