51 ms·

> Traditional Windows apps all use system provided common controls, because they are good, and therefore they have a consistent look and feel, even through OS u

by n8cpdx 4y ago

> Traditional Windows apps all use system provided common controls, because they are good, and therefore they have a consistent look and feel, even through OS updates. This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than the native (whatever that means) toolkits in much less time. It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). Even Office and Visual Studio (not Code) are using web technologies to render substantial parts of the UI.

tablespoon 4y ago
> I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than the native (whatever that means) toolkits in much less time. It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). I'll grant you that it's probably easier and cheaper to get a workable "color picker in a web app," but I don't grant that going that route will get you a "better app than the native." The reason why the web stuff is taking over is because it's cheaper while providing minimally-viable functionality, full stop. It's not actually good in any other way. IMHO, the trend here is similar to the one consumer printers took.
- bigyikes 4y ago
  The word “cheaper” here is doing a lot of work. Yes, it’s cheaper, meaning that it allows you to ship more stuff faster. You could make the argument that this results in lower quality, but this isn’t always the case. (For example, VS Code feels great!) Still, I’d often rather have twice the features at 80% the quality, instead of an extremely high quality product that doesn’t have the features I need. Cheapness leads to abundance leads to innovation.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Innovation? More like W95 (or even ME) compared to NT, and don't even start to compare ME against BSD/Solaris/Linux or Mac OS X.
  - 5d8767c68926 4y ago
    We're taking about a trillion dollar company who can afford all of the talent and has very limited time pressure. I would prefer they do it correctly.
    - bigyikes 4y ago
      This misses the point. A trillion dollars goes a lot further when the software is cheaper.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        But VSCode isn't cheaper. They had to pour millions of dollars and countless man hours into it. And none of those translated into any meaningful improvements of the platform.
        anilakar 4y ago
        It isn't cheap wrt hardware requirements either. My 2.5 year old work laptop becomes unbelievably sluggish if I have to keep multiple Electron apps open.
  - kajaktum 4y ago
    VSCode is adequate, not great. The bar for responsive and minimal application is so bad these days thanks to web apps.
    - Kiro 4y ago
      It's great and the best desktop app I've ever used.
- ryukoposting 4y ago
  I think I agree with you, but I need a clear definition of "cheaper." To me, "cheaper" means that companies are putting fewer resources into Windows-specific app development. That's not unexpected, given large portions of their user base are using MacOS, Android, or iOS. Why would I hire 8 developers to make 4 apps, when I could hire 6 developers to make make 3 or even 2 apps? Oh, as an added bonus, now my app can also be loaded straight from a browser, no installation necessary? And I don't have nagging complaints from small-market-share users (Linux and BSD) complaining that my app doesn't work on their machines? Seems like a no-brainer. From a business perspective, if the end product is good enough that the customers don't complain, what reason is there to not* use web technologies? Don't get me wrong, I hate that half the software I use today is just a glorified Chrome tab. I hate how I need 16GB of RAM to do my job.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Lazarus will target MacOS, Windows, Linux and all the BSD's creating binaries for all of them from a single source.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    > I think I agree with you, but I need a clear definition of "cheaper." I think the best definition of MS products in regard with quality and usability is "cheaper" as in "he is cheap". (i.e. only using the lowest quality crap available)
- vasvir 4y ago
  Also the deployment makes much more sense in the web. Users are always in the latest version of the software with no install / update shenanigans. This has other implications as well. The application may change internal formats since it doesn't have to worry about older instances of itself etc. And if you build an updater in your app like chrome / firefox then it needs to be disabled for Linux distributions that have their own package manager.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
RedShift1 4y ago
> It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). What is a decent color picker? Everybody's idea about that is different so basically no 2 websites use the same color picker. In fact, this paper [1] found that the kind of picker (RGB vs HSV, etc...) doesn't really matter, but that better feedback made the difference. So will we get instant feedback from our color pickers now (for example text immediately turning into the color selected)? No, because designers design how they think it should look and feel, not based on how people actually interact with applications. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220183526_Model_and_representation_The_effect_of_visual_feedback_on_human_performance_in_a_color_picker_interface https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220183526_Model_and...
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  This one looks pretty solid. There are loads of them. The demos I’ve seen all showcase live feedback. https://superguigui.github.io/simple-color-picker/ https://superguigui.github.io/simple-color-picker/ Compare to the best I can find for WPF: https://github.com/dsafa/wpf-color-picker https://github.com/dsafa/wpf-color-picker - no live feedback, dialog only, no documented support for modern .NET. There are some commercial controls available from syncfusion and the like if you want to pay for such things. Compare to color dialog in WinForms: https://github.com/Kinnara/ModernWpf/issues/72 https://github.com/Kinnara/ModernWpf/issues/72 WinUI has a decent color picker, but there are other trade offs going with WinUI that make it inferior to the web environment (e.g. broken rendering of SVG/paths).
quickthrower2 4y ago
This is evidenced by the layers of settings UIs in modern windows from old school systems properties dialog to newfangled display settings, and in between. It is horrible. They just bundle these UIs atop one another there is no overall usability oversight.
mdmglr 4y ago
> Even Office and Visual Studio (not Code) are using web technologies to render substantial parts of the UI. Any more details on what web technologies are being used in Visual Studio and what parts of the UI are done with web?
- pjmlp 4y ago
  You just have to peek into what is running as child process from VS, as node.exe instances. Mostly related to Web stuff, Blazor or VSCode plugins that they are "porting" into VS.
- fuzzy2 4y ago
  The Diagnostic Tools window is implemented as a web view, probably since its introduction in… VS2017?. I’m not aware of any other GUI parts implemented using web technologies. Node.js processes are invisible backend stuff.
  - n8cpdx 4y ago
    This is what I was thinking of. Kind of a telling statement of Microsoft’s perception of WPF when they turn to WebView2 to render newer parts of the UI in their WPF app (which was never ported to WinRT, UWP, or WinUI). They didn’t even use XAML islands for the newer parts, they just jumped straight to web.
redbell 4y ago
> This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista Yes, I believe the Windows UI (at least until 10 since I haven't tested 11 deeply) is becoming increasingly inconsistent because of the many UI frameworks out there. And, while I understand that each app's developer is free to choose whatever framework UI they feel is right for them, I find it hard to understand why Microsoft is not sticking with a consistent framework for all of its apps, it went even far by using Electron for its Teams app! However, the thing that I might never get is: Why is Windows itself (and its system apps, i.e Calculator, Notepad) isn't sticking to a single framework? Yesterday, at night, I turned "Dark Mode" on and was surprised to see that "Task Manager" keeps its Light theme. It's weird how Notepad++ has a "Dark" theme while Task Manager has not! To "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity", check https://youtu.be/hn5QjtpjW_U https://youtu.be/hn5QjtpjW_U
- lozenge 4y ago
  I didn't think it's a good video. If Microsoft s latest apps don't have a consistent design, they have spent more money on designing each of them separately. Each of those hover effects and custom title bars needed to be coded separately. That undermines the idea that MS "hasn't prioritised spending on design because it won't help their enterprise customers" and shows it's just an organisational problem.
- juki 4y ago
  The latest Windows 11 update just switched the task manager to the new UI style with support for dark theme.
pjmlp 4y ago
Office is using web technologies because they don't want to rewrite their code for Office 365, so native users get the Web stuff on a Web widget instead of a proper native UI. Which is kind of tragic, given how Office was the testing ground for many Windows UI components.
- desindol 4y ago
  What are you even talking about the only non native app in the office package is teams…
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    https://www.office.com/ https://www.office.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-fabric-react https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-f...
    - desindol 4y ago
      ????? Nobody is saying that there aren’t webviews in office I am saying that your statement that most of the desktop office ui is now non native is false and misleading. After reading your other comments in the thread it seems like more of a personal vendetta than factual statements. lmao
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Nope, you're the one interpreting that way, I only mentioned that they are adopting Web stuff as means to reduce code duplication between Web and desktop, via Webviews exactly. So unless you're on the Office team and want to tell us anything, please do lmao.
        desindol 4y ago
        4y ago
ama5322 4y ago
> This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. Ignoring 3rd party apps, to me the windows UI died with XP where the consistency stopped being somewhat pushed on the base OS/UX itself. Strictly speaking nobody cares what APIs are being used or if there are multiple of them as long as they convey a consistent UX. If a consistent UX is pushed on a system level, even custom apps will try to stick to it (see macos). But the sad truth is that on windows there is no longer one. W10 can show you dialogs from the windows 3.1 style up to a WPA, and you'll likely encounter a mixture all the time because there's no consistency. I sometimes watch retro hw channels and looking at windows from 3 to 2k reminds me the stark difference.

by n8cpdx 4y ago

tablespoon 4y ago

> I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than the native (whatever that means) toolkits in much less time. It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). I'll grant you that it's probably easier and cheaper to get a workable "color picker in a web app," but I don't grant that going that route will get you a "better app than the native." The reason why the web stuff is taking over is because it's cheaper while providing minimally-viable functionality, full stop. It's not actually good in any other way. IMHO, the trend here is similar to the one consumer printers took.

bigyikes 4y ago
The word “cheaper” here is doing a lot of work. Yes, it’s cheaper, meaning that it allows you to ship more stuff faster. You could make the argument that this results in lower quality, but this isn’t always the case. (For example, VS Code feels great!) Still, I’d often rather have twice the features at 80% the quality, instead of an extremely high quality product that doesn’t have the features I need. Cheapness leads to abundance leads to innovation.
- anthk 4y ago
  Innovation? More like W95 (or even ME) compared to NT, and don't even start to compare ME against BSD/Solaris/Linux or Mac OS X.
- 5d8767c68926 4y ago
  We're taking about a trillion dollar company who can afford all of the talent and has very limited time pressure. I would prefer they do it correctly.
  - bigyikes 4y ago
    This misses the point. A trillion dollars goes a lot further when the software is cheaper.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      But VSCode isn't cheaper. They had to pour millions of dollars and countless man hours into it. And none of those translated into any meaningful improvements of the platform.
      - anilakar 4y ago
        It isn't cheap wrt hardware requirements either. My 2.5 year old work laptop becomes unbelievably sluggish if I have to keep multiple Electron apps open.
- kajaktum 4y ago
  VSCode is adequate, not great. The bar for responsive and minimal application is so bad these days thanks to web apps.
  - Kiro 4y ago
    It's great and the best desktop app I've ever used.
ryukoposting 4y ago
I think I agree with you, but I need a clear definition of "cheaper." To me, "cheaper" means that companies are putting fewer resources into Windows-specific app development. That's not unexpected, given large portions of their user base are using MacOS, Android, or iOS. Why would I hire 8 developers to make 4 apps, when I could hire 6 developers to make make 3 or even 2 apps? Oh, as an added bonus, now my app can also be loaded straight from a browser, no installation necessary? And I don't have nagging complaints from small-market-share users (Linux and BSD) complaining that my app doesn't work on their machines? Seems like a no-brainer. From a business perspective, if the end product is good enough that the customers don't complain, what reason is there to not* use web technologies? Don't get me wrong, I hate that half the software I use today is just a glorified Chrome tab. I hate how I need 16GB of RAM to do my job.
- anthk 4y ago
  Lazarus will target MacOS, Windows, Linux and all the BSD's creating binaries for all of them from a single source.
- hulitu 4y ago
  > I think I agree with you, but I need a clear definition of "cheaper." I think the best definition of MS products in regard with quality and usability is "cheaper" as in "he is cheap". (i.e. only using the lowest quality crap available)
vasvir 4y ago
Also the deployment makes much more sense in the web. Users are always in the latest version of the software with no install / update shenanigans. This has other implications as well. The application may change internal formats since it doesn't have to worry about older instances of itself etc. And if you build an updater in your app like chrome / firefox then it needs to be disabled for Linux distributions that have their own package manager.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

RedShift1 4y ago

> It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). What is a decent color picker? Everybody's idea about that is different so basically no 2 websites use the same color picker. In fact, this paper [1] found that the kind of picker (RGB vs HSV, etc...) doesn't really matter, but that better feedback made the difference. So will we get instant feedback from our color pickers now (for example text immediately turning into the color selected)? No, because designers design how they think it should look and feel, not based on how people actually interact with applications. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220183526_Model_and_representation_The_effect_of_visual_feedback_on_human_performance_in_a_color_picker_interface https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220183526_Model_and...

n8cpdx 4y ago
This one looks pretty solid. There are loads of them. The demos I’ve seen all showcase live feedback. https://superguigui.github.io/simple-color-picker/ https://superguigui.github.io/simple-color-picker/ Compare to the best I can find for WPF: https://github.com/dsafa/wpf-color-picker https://github.com/dsafa/wpf-color-picker - no live feedback, dialog only, no documented support for modern .NET. There are some commercial controls available from syncfusion and the like if you want to pay for such things. Compare to color dialog in WinForms: https://github.com/Kinnara/ModernWpf/issues/72 https://github.com/Kinnara/ModernWpf/issues/72 WinUI has a decent color picker, but there are other trade offs going with WinUI that make it inferior to the web environment (e.g. broken rendering of SVG/paths).

quickthrower2 4y ago

This is evidenced by the layers of settings UIs in modern windows from old school systems properties dialog to newfangled display settings, and in between. It is horrible. They just bundle these UIs atop one another there is no overall usability oversight.

mdmglr 4y ago

> Even Office and Visual Studio (not Code) are using web technologies to render substantial parts of the UI. Any more details on what web technologies are being used in Visual Studio and what parts of the UI are done with web?

pjmlp 4y ago
You just have to peek into what is running as child process from VS, as node.exe instances. Mostly related to Web stuff, Blazor or VSCode plugins that they are "porting" into VS.
fuzzy2 4y ago
The Diagnostic Tools window is implemented as a web view, probably since its introduction in… VS2017?. I’m not aware of any other GUI parts implemented using web technologies. Node.js processes are invisible backend stuff.
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  This is what I was thinking of. Kind of a telling statement of Microsoft’s perception of WPF when they turn to WebView2 to render newer parts of the UI in their WPF app (which was never ported to WinRT, UWP, or WinUI). They didn’t even use XAML islands for the newer parts, they just jumped straight to web.

redbell 4y ago

> This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista Yes, I believe the Windows UI (at least until 10 since I haven't tested 11 deeply) is becoming increasingly inconsistent because of the many UI frameworks out there. And, while I understand that each app's developer is free to choose whatever framework UI they feel is right for them, I find it hard to understand why Microsoft is not sticking with a consistent framework for all of its apps, it went even far by using Electron for its Teams app! However, the thing that I might never get is: Why is Windows itself (and its system apps, i.e Calculator, Notepad) isn't sticking to a single framework? Yesterday, at night, I turned "Dark Mode" on and was surprised to see that "Task Manager" keeps its Light theme. It's weird how Notepad++ has a "Dark" theme while Task Manager has not! To "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity", check https://youtu.be/hn5QjtpjW_U https://youtu.be/hn5QjtpjW_U

lozenge 4y ago
I didn't think it's a good video. If Microsoft s latest apps don't have a consistent design, they have spent more money on designing each of them separately. Each of those hover effects and custom title bars needed to be coded separately. That undermines the idea that MS "hasn't prioritised spending on design because it won't help their enterprise customers" and shows it's just an organisational problem.
juki 4y ago
The latest Windows 11 update just switched the task manager to the new UI style with support for dark theme.

pjmlp 4y ago

Office is using web technologies because they don't want to rewrite their code for Office 365, so native users get the Web stuff on a Web widget instead of a proper native UI. Which is kind of tragic, given how Office was the testing ground for many Windows UI components.

desindol 4y ago
What are you even talking about the only non native app in the office package is teams…
- pjmlp 4y ago
  https://www.office.com/ https://www.office.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-fabric-react https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-f...
  - desindol 4y ago
    ????? Nobody is saying that there aren’t webviews in office I am saying that your statement that most of the desktop office ui is now non native is false and misleading. After reading your other comments in the thread it seems like more of a personal vendetta than factual statements. lmao
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Nope, you're the one interpreting that way, I only mentioned that they are adopting Web stuff as means to reduce code duplication between Web and desktop, via Webviews exactly. So unless you're on the Office team and want to tell us anything, please do lmao.
      - desindol 4y ago
        4y ago

ama5322 4y ago

> This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. Ignoring 3rd party apps, to me the windows UI died with XP where the consistency stopped being somewhat pushed on the base OS/UX itself. Strictly speaking nobody cares what APIs are being used or if there are multiple of them as long as they convey a consistent UX. If a consistent UX is pushed on a system level, even custom apps will try to stick to it (see macos). But the sad truth is that on windows there is no longer one. W10 can show you dialogs from the windows 3.1 style up to a WPA, and you'll likely encounter a mixture all the time because there's no consistency. I sometimes watch retro hw channels and looking at windows from 3 to 2k reminds me the stark difference.