11 ms·

Growing indifference to relationships and sex in Japan

46 points by z7 4y ago

jobs_throwaway 4y ago
>The results show that around half of men and women aged 18 and 19 have never been in a relationship, while the percentage is around 30% for women aged 20 to 34 and nearly 40% for men of the same age bracket This is just absolutely astounding to me. HALF of all 18-19 year olds have NEVER been in a relationship?! Are norms around what constitutes a 'relationship' different in Japan than the US? Because that figure seems shockingly high.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  That was my high school in Canada too. 4 people had dates for graduation. Granted, we were a tech school.
- jollyllama 4y ago
  Sounds about right for zoomers
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Maybe zoomers on this website.
- tksiden 4y ago
shams93 4y ago
I wonder if this is environment driven where maybe there is some kind of chemical gotten into their food chain that inhibits the libido.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  I could easily see it being that we are otherwise happy, making sex less worth the effort to obtain. Or porn. If I have a sexual itch, I just go to porn. I am someone who in my mid 20s has never had a relationship. Not worth the effort to me.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    Most people get more out of a relationship than sex.
    - akiselev 4y ago
      I think most people don't internalize that fact until the emotional shock of their first big breakup.
    - debesyla 4y ago
      But with today's fluid relationship types - a classical couple relationship isn't needed as much, isn't it? And on top of that, a lot of problems that were before solved by having a partner (something breaking, don't know how to cook, just lonely and want to chat, etc) now can be solved by various businesses and services. I think that it's possible that for some people classical relationships aren't as optimal anymore.
      - jl6 4y ago
        I think a lot of people are desperately unhappy and lonely and a classical relationship (either sexual, or simply close friendship) is exactly what is missing from their lives, and all the businesses and services that try to fill this gap aren’t cutting it.
        BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        They aren't trying to fill the gap. Filling the gap would make the profits dry up.
        4y ago
- nh23423fefe 4y ago
  Seems impossible and makes no sense.
  - vosper 4y ago
    Why is it impossible for something to get into the food chain for a large number of people? You've got loads of spraying, processing and packaging going on in the industrial food chain. Even if you have myriad producers, ruling out an issue due to centralization of processing, they might all be wrapping their product in the same materials.
    - nh23423fefe 4y ago
      It's conspiracy theory that simple point in time causes have widespread diffuse effects. Imagining there is "something in the water" is paranoia
      - omniglottal 4y ago
        There, in fact, is something in the water. One substance is a known neurotoxin used to treat tooth decay, but statistically seen to decrease IQ. You can call it paranoia, but that makes you more out of touch with reality while you quash viable, accurate discourse. Japan's culture already predisposes its citizens to more estrogenics than the US consumer sees... but go on, let's have another few decades of indoctrinated ignorance because you cannot be honest and accurate about reality. Don't attribute to paranoia your own distinct lack of thought about extant phenomenea. If an effect exists, causes exist which far outweigh your inability to measure them distinctly.
        the_only_law 4y ago
        I like how instead of expanding on your idea, you use weasel-wording and spend more time attacking GP. That makes you more trustworthy.
      - vosper 4y ago
        Sure, but there's a difference between "impossible" and "not supported by current evidence". As another poster points out, there is an example with flouride (though I am no anti-flouridist). Other examples might be widespread use of BPA and PFAS. Air-pollution might be another example of something that could effect much of a population (though it's not in the food chain). I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and until we have strong scientific evidence I won't claim that there are population-wide effects. But saying it's "impossible" is wrong.
z7 4y ago
Link to survey (Japanese only) / press release: https://www.ipss.go.jp/ps-doukou/e/doukou16/Nfs16_gaiyoEng.html https://www.ipss.go.jp/ps-doukou/e/doukou16/Nfs16_gaiyoEng.h...
throwawaysleep 4y ago
I suspect Japan is just a few years ahead of North America. Everyone keeps saying how this is a uniquely Japanese thing, but Anecdotally, in my own broader social group, of 15 or so people there are 3 relationships that exist. Far more (myself included) have never had a relationship (about 8).
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  If you account for different cultures and only look at 3rd gen immigrants and beyond, you're likely already there.
- Invictus0 4y ago
  ??? Over half of American teens have had sex by 18, compared to under 20% in Japan. I've seen nothing to suggest that that is going to change dramatically. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/...
- babypuncher 4y ago
  It's already happening in the US, we just don't notice it as much because we still allow enough immigration to maintain a net population growth. The cure is to stop educating people. There is a proven causal link between education and birth rates. It turns out that when people are both smarter and have more opportunity available to them, they are more likely to choose life paths other than staying home and raising kids. Or, take a different view like me. I don't think declining birth rates are a problem, I think continuing to hinge our economy on continual unsustainable exponential growth is.
z7 4y ago
OP here, I think I might have been blacklisted. Seems like this isn't turning up anywhere on the main pages despite the upvotes. Maybe because I tried to submit the Kiwi Farms url where the recent hack was documented. Anyway, thanks for the comments. edit: Okay, now it's on page one. xD
- hypertele-Xii 4y ago
  It's 34th on front page 2 right now.
- rany_ 4y ago
  You're 28th on the front page with 10 upvotes, so I doubt it
colinmhayes 4y ago
Craziest stat imo is that 80% of 18-19 year olds have 0 sexual experience. Here I was thinking that only constants in life were death, taxes, and horny teenagers, but the japanese have apparently broken teenagers.
- Ferret7446 4y ago
  You say that as if 18 year olds having sexual experience 1) is good and 2) is normal. I would contest both of those points from a perspective outside of contemporary Western values.
- MajorBee 4y ago
  That's hardly a crazy stat, you're merely viewing it through a Western lens. In plenty of Asian cultures it is uncommon for people to have sexual experience before marriage.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    Not necessarily western, dating an American girl can be quite special. Not only meant negatively, but it is something else. Different focus, different interests,...
- fluoridation 4y ago
  Inexperienced does not mean not horny.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Sure, but it definitely means something is stopping them.
    - manquer 4y ago
      It is extremely common in many parts of Asia not to have sex in your teens or even before marriage for variety of reasons
- 4y ago
zumu 4y ago
The thing that always messed me up with relationships in school in Japan is how the class / larger social group would perceive it. There's definitely relationships I didn't pursue because I didn't want to disrupt the harmony of the group as it were. So dating out of group is easier in a way. I wasn't over there until university, but I think it might be even worse for the younger kids. Everyone is in everyone else's business and no one wants to be the object of gossip or ridicule.
- speakfreely 4y ago
  Are dating apps not prevalent there? A major novelty of dating apps is that it allows you to meet people that are completely removed from your social circle, which sounds like it would be pretty useful in Japan.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Dating apps have the same issues worldwide as they do in the US. And we have no end of laments regarding OLD in the US.
    - threads2 4y ago
      what?
      - 0_____0 4y ago
        I reckon the initialism is "On Line Dating"
    - colinmhayes 4y ago
      Dating apps have issues, sure, but those issues have not even come close to stopping people from using them. Dating apps are ubiquitous among those in their early 20s here.
      - david38 4y ago
jsnk 4y ago
The humanity must find a way to understand what is driving demographic decline around the world. The liberal paradigm is to attribute this to financially squeezed young people who cannot buy homes and start families. I'm sure this does have some effect, but clearly it's a severely lacking explanation as people who are poorer and have gone through extreme hardship prioritize family and having children far more regardless of their financial status. There seems to be something much more fundamental happening to civilizations around the world where it is annihilating itself peacefully. This must become the primary objective of countries around the world to figure out. Immigration will buys you time, but it won't solve the problem.
- archagon 4y ago
  Civilizations cone and go. Humanity will be fine.
- brtkdotse 4y ago
  We’re seeing the first generation who are worse off than their parents. The future looks bleak with climate change and multiple conflicts around the world.
  - jsnk 4y ago
    Not true. You are probably looking at last 70 to 80 years. Look back several millennia. Our generation is better off than 99% every generation before us. Climate change, multiple conflicts around the world are no where near a big problem compared to the struggles our ancestors have gone through.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - echelon 4y ago
    I think this is wrong. Silent Gen and Boomers lived in an unusual boom time that hasn't existed before or since. America was the world's factory and everyone else was out of commission. We had it all, and that'll never happen again. Now we're reverting to the mean, and it'll be okay. We still have great wealth. Just look to the developing nation algorithm. Our wealth is being spent on bringing up other economies (giving us cheap stuff in exchange). That's not a bad thing. People aren't having sex (or children) because of Internet, TV, porn, social media, modern work habits, etc. You can't unplug from it. Furthermore, raising kids used to give you an extra farmhand or house cleaner. Now it gives you an expensive equivalent of a dog. Plenty of folks don't want the trouble.
tksiden 4y ago
Men are treated poorly and checking out. Its demoralizing when you hear 6 feet 6 figures 6 inches from so many women on dating apps. Its demoralizing to be cheated on and be blamed for all the ills. It feels bad when Twitter users post kill all men.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
I hate the way people say "relationship" as if it's a singular data point. Sex is a relationship. Business is a relationship. Friendship is a relationship. Romance is a relationship. Treating several days points as one data point gives us really poor data. Thankfully, a lot of the data in the article is explicitly about "sexual experience". Even so, there is still the loaded question, "Do you want a relationship?" That's just too vague. How can we learn what people's goals are if we aren't willing to ask? All we know boils down to two data points: fewer people are pursuing traditional marriage, and fewer people are having sex. That's not enough to answer the interesting questions. We can't learn what obstacles people have if we don't know their goals.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  Is there really much ambiguity about what is meant by "relationship" as part of the phrase "relationships and sex"? I think it's pretty obvious it means an exclusive romantic relationship or something approximately along those lines, and not a business partnership.
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
    Yes, but an exclusive romantic relationship is not the only context people have sex. Romance itself is not sex, nor sex romance. Just because that's historically been a very popular and socially accepted method does not mean it is today. The entire purpose of doing studies like this is to learn something new. The more assumptions we make, the fewer opportunities we have to learn.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  The study is carried out by the National Fertility Survey. Declining fertility rates drive immense problems in societies, and Japan is at the forefront of this because of both their age and fertility rates. Relationships are important on a micro scale. Fertility is absolutely critical on a macro scale.
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
isochronous 4y ago
Considering Japanese culture, I'm not surprised. This is what happens when you have super-conservative social values backed up by a strong pressure to conform. Few people are willing to take a risk or convey honest feelings, and both of those things are inherent in a romantic relationship.
- manquer 4y ago
  Wouldn’t strong pressure to confirm mean just finding someone to be in a relationship with even if not happy ? Wouldn’t there be social pressure just as strong or stronger to be married/in a relationship?
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
Tech, including porn, social media, gaming, deluge of escapism video on demand, is just another kind of drug, conditioning everyone to get dopamine hits by pressing buttons rather than bonding with other human beings. I am not saying quit cold turkey, just know that there is a difference between junk food and a meal that is good for you long term. One contributing problem is stigmatizing normal male sexuality to the point men have to completely repress themselves to fit in. One can be a gentleman and still want and pursue physical relationships.
- vkou 4y ago
  Normal, healthy views on it aren't what's stigmatized. Creepy, unrequited, harassing behaviour sometimes is, in some contexts, and its practitioners love to fall back to the 'Just being nice/don't you like the attention/just boys being boys' defenses when called out on it. The people responsible for it, of course, see themselves as victims, and cry to anyone who will listen about how unfair the world is to them.
  - cat_plus_plus 4y ago
    Nature inclines women to require quite a bit of effort and persistence to be won over, since they make so much investment and require so much help to birth and raise children. There is an intricate set of social norms, developed over centuries, that protects women from over-aggressive suitors while still allowing appropriate courtship to happen. Such courtship necessarily takes place where men and women naturally congregate together, including school and work and includes playful compliments and asking someone out a few times. Young women are naturally attracted to older successful men as good providers, just like as young men often initially go out with older women who are either past childbearing years or have their own practical and emotional resources rather than placing a big burden on their partners. There are reasons to prefer equal/same age relationships, but we shouldn't clutch our pearls when a boss dates a secretary. You can't just throw away hundreds of years of tradition and expect good results from counterfactual expectations on gender that you dreamed up from thin air. Just look at what happened with 20th century efforts to rewrite human nature by decree. Personally I am not in the market and not talking for myself, just feel sorry for the future of humanity. Especially progressive environmentalists got to realize that childless old people grow conservative and don't give a hoot about climate change after they are gone.
at_a_remove 4y ago
I like to think about "Questions nobody wants honest answers to." So here is one, and you can perform an experiment: Go to some kind of forum, maybe Reddit or Quora or Metafilter (just kidding don't do Metafilter unless you are a masochist) and ask the question, "Where can I, as a single hetero male, go to approach women?" My prediction is that you'll get some "OMG DON'T!" responses, and a lot of "where NOT to," which does not answer the actual question. For there to be relationships and/or sex, somebody has to make the approach, and that means a location in spacetime, a where and a when. The workplace, previously one of the largest places where this occurred, has been ruled out, which is a bit troublesome given that most people spend a rather large percentage of their time there. Oh, we kinda stopped going to church, so that is out. Bowling alone ... uh ... then maybe you ask about the library and someone will say "I'm just there to study" or a bar and it becomes "I'm just there to hang out with my friends." Always in the negative. Where are these approaches to take place? Have we collectively decided to hand this over to match.com, Tinder, Grindr, whatever, and now it is all online? If relationships and sex were food and water, there's chunk of people who would expect you to politely starve to death and not make a lot of noise about it.
- haunter 4y ago
  >Where can I, as a single hetero male, go to approach women https://www.reddit.com/r/socialskills/comments/vw4cw1/places_to_approach_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/socialskills/comments/vw4cw1/places... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/t4il6w/what_are_the_acceptable_places_to_approach_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/t4il6w/what_are_the... https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jtii14/women_of_reddit_where_is_a_good_place_for_a_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jtii14/women_of_... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating_advice/comments/ipdr0k/is_there_any_way_to_meet_women_besides_online/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating_advice/comments/ipdr0k/is_th... https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/sn08h/ladies_when_and_where_is_it_ok_to_approach_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/sn08h/ladies_when... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/v1nqha/should_men_still_approach_women_in_person_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/v1nqha/should_men_s... On a personal note I have 3 sisters and I've always heard from them (and their friends) that a lot of women actually disappointed that men doesn't approach them irl. It's a 2 way game for sure but generally men expected to take the first step for sure. But on the other hand there is also a social pressure to "not fuck up", everything is online nowadays and pretty much kept forever. No one wants to be labeled as a creep or such. So a lot of men just choose to not play the game, why risk to lose when you barely have any chance to win at all?
mcguire 4y ago
Two questions: 1. Does this survey include or correct for homosexuals? 2. How correct is it to say there is a "growing indifference" when the levels seem to mostly be approaching their value in the 1980s-90s?

46 points by z7 4y ago

>The results show that around half of men and women aged 18 and 19 have never been in a relationship, while the percentage is around 30% for women aged 20 to 34 and nearly 40% for men of the same age bracket This is just absolutely astounding to me. HALF of all 18-19 year olds have NEVER been in a relationship?! Are norms around what constitutes a 'relationship' different in Japan than the US? Because that figure seems shockingly high.

throwawaysleep 4y ago
That was my high school in Canada too. 4 people had dates for graduation. Granted, we were a tech school.
jollyllama 4y ago
Sounds about right for zoomers
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Maybe zoomers on this website.
tksiden 4y ago

shams93 4y ago

I wonder if this is environment driven where maybe there is some kind of chemical gotten into their food chain that inhibits the libido.

throwawaysleep 4y ago
I could easily see it being that we are otherwise happy, making sex less worth the effort to obtain. Or porn. If I have a sexual itch, I just go to porn. I am someone who in my mid 20s has never had a relationship. Not worth the effort to me.
- thfuran 4y ago
  Most people get more out of a relationship than sex.
  - akiselev 4y ago
    I think most people don't internalize that fact until the emotional shock of their first big breakup.
  - debesyla 4y ago
    But with today's fluid relationship types - a classical couple relationship isn't needed as much, isn't it? And on top of that, a lot of problems that were before solved by having a partner (something breaking, don't know how to cook, just lonely and want to chat, etc) now can be solved by various businesses and services. I think that it's possible that for some people classical relationships aren't as optimal anymore.
    - jl6 4y ago
      I think a lot of people are desperately unhappy and lonely and a classical relationship (either sexual, or simply close friendship) is exactly what is missing from their lives, and all the businesses and services that try to fill this gap aren’t cutting it.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        They aren't trying to fill the gap. Filling the gap would make the profits dry up.
        4y ago
nh23423fefe 4y ago
Seems impossible and makes no sense.
- vosper 4y ago
  Why is it impossible for something to get into the food chain for a large number of people? You've got loads of spraying, processing and packaging going on in the industrial food chain. Even if you have myriad producers, ruling out an issue due to centralization of processing, they might all be wrapping their product in the same materials.
  - nh23423fefe 4y ago
    It's conspiracy theory that simple point in time causes have widespread diffuse effects. Imagining there is "something in the water" is paranoia
    - omniglottal 4y ago
      There, in fact, is something in the water. One substance is a known neurotoxin used to treat tooth decay, but statistically seen to decrease IQ. You can call it paranoia, but that makes you more out of touch with reality while you quash viable, accurate discourse. Japan's culture already predisposes its citizens to more estrogenics than the US consumer sees... but go on, let's have another few decades of indoctrinated ignorance because you cannot be honest and accurate about reality. Don't attribute to paranoia your own distinct lack of thought about extant phenomenea. If an effect exists, causes exist which far outweigh your inability to measure them distinctly.
      - the_only_law 4y ago
        I like how instead of expanding on your idea, you use weasel-wording and spend more time attacking GP. That makes you more trustworthy.
    - vosper 4y ago
      Sure, but there's a difference between "impossible" and "not supported by current evidence". As another poster points out, there is an example with flouride (though I am no anti-flouridist). Other examples might be widespread use of BPA and PFAS. Air-pollution might be another example of something that could effect much of a population (though it's not in the food chain). I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and until we have strong scientific evidence I won't claim that there are population-wide effects. But saying it's "impossible" is wrong.

z7 4y ago

Link to survey (Japanese only) / press release: https://www.ipss.go.jp/ps-doukou/e/doukou16/Nfs16_gaiyoEng.html https://www.ipss.go.jp/ps-doukou/e/doukou16/Nfs16_gaiyoEng.h...

throwawaysleep 4y ago

I suspect Japan is just a few years ahead of North America. Everyone keeps saying how this is a uniquely Japanese thing, but Anecdotally, in my own broader social group, of 15 or so people there are 3 relationships that exist. Far more (myself included) have never had a relationship (about 8).

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
If you account for different cultures and only look at 3rd gen immigrants and beyond, you're likely already there.
Invictus0 4y ago
??? Over half of American teens have had sex by 18, compared to under 20% in Japan. I've seen nothing to suggest that that is going to change dramatically. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/201706_NSFG.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2017/...
babypuncher 4y ago
It's already happening in the US, we just don't notice it as much because we still allow enough immigration to maintain a net population growth. The cure is to stop educating people. There is a proven causal link between education and birth rates. It turns out that when people are both smarter and have more opportunity available to them, they are more likely to choose life paths other than staying home and raising kids. Or, take a different view like me. I don't think declining birth rates are a problem, I think continuing to hinge our economy on continual unsustainable exponential growth is.

z7 4y ago

OP here, I think I might have been blacklisted. Seems like this isn't turning up anywhere on the main pages despite the upvotes. Maybe because I tried to submit the Kiwi Farms url where the recent hack was documented. Anyway, thanks for the comments. edit: Okay, now it's on page one. xD

hypertele-Xii 4y ago
It's 34th on front page 2 right now.
rany_ 4y ago
You're 28th on the front page with 10 upvotes, so I doubt it

colinmhayes 4y ago

Craziest stat imo is that 80% of 18-19 year olds have 0 sexual experience. Here I was thinking that only constants in life were death, taxes, and horny teenagers, but the japanese have apparently broken teenagers.

Ferret7446 4y ago
You say that as if 18 year olds having sexual experience 1) is good and 2) is normal. I would contest both of those points from a perspective outside of contemporary Western values.
MajorBee 4y ago
That's hardly a crazy stat, you're merely viewing it through a Western lens. In plenty of Asian cultures it is uncommon for people to have sexual experience before marriage.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Not necessarily western, dating an American girl can be quite special. Not only meant negatively, but it is something else. Different focus, different interests,...
fluoridation 4y ago
Inexperienced does not mean not horny.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Sure, but it definitely means something is stopping them.
  - manquer 4y ago
    It is extremely common in many parts of Asia not to have sex in your teens or even before marriage for variety of reasons
4y ago

zumu 4y ago

The thing that always messed me up with relationships in school in Japan is how the class / larger social group would perceive it. There's definitely relationships I didn't pursue because I didn't want to disrupt the harmony of the group as it were. So dating out of group is easier in a way. I wasn't over there until university, but I think it might be even worse for the younger kids. Everyone is in everyone else's business and no one wants to be the object of gossip or ridicule.

speakfreely 4y ago
Are dating apps not prevalent there? A major novelty of dating apps is that it allows you to meet people that are completely removed from your social circle, which sounds like it would be pretty useful in Japan.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Dating apps have the same issues worldwide as they do in the US. And we have no end of laments regarding OLD in the US.
  - threads2 4y ago
    what?
    - 0_____0 4y ago
      I reckon the initialism is "On Line Dating"
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Dating apps have issues, sure, but those issues have not even come close to stopping people from using them. Dating apps are ubiquitous among those in their early 20s here.
    - david38 4y ago

jsnk 4y ago

The humanity must find a way to understand what is driving demographic decline around the world. The liberal paradigm is to attribute this to financially squeezed young people who cannot buy homes and start families. I'm sure this does have some effect, but clearly it's a severely lacking explanation as people who are poorer and have gone through extreme hardship prioritize family and having children far more regardless of their financial status. There seems to be something much more fundamental happening to civilizations around the world where it is annihilating itself peacefully. This must become the primary objective of countries around the world to figure out. Immigration will buys you time, but it won't solve the problem.

archagon 4y ago
Civilizations cone and go. Humanity will be fine.
brtkdotse 4y ago
We’re seeing the first generation who are worse off than their parents. The future looks bleak with climate change and multiple conflicts around the world.
- jsnk 4y ago
  Not true. You are probably looking at last 70 to 80 years. Look back several millennia. Our generation is better off than 99% every generation before us. Climate change, multiple conflicts around the world are no where near a big problem compared to the struggles our ancestors have gone through.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- echelon 4y ago
  I think this is wrong. Silent Gen and Boomers lived in an unusual boom time that hasn't existed before or since. America was the world's factory and everyone else was out of commission. We had it all, and that'll never happen again. Now we're reverting to the mean, and it'll be okay. We still have great wealth. Just look to the developing nation algorithm. Our wealth is being spent on bringing up other economies (giving us cheap stuff in exchange). That's not a bad thing. People aren't having sex (or children) because of Internet, TV, porn, social media, modern work habits, etc. You can't unplug from it. Furthermore, raising kids used to give you an extra farmhand or house cleaner. Now it gives you an expensive equivalent of a dog. Plenty of folks don't want the trouble.

tksiden 4y ago

Men are treated poorly and checking out. Its demoralizing when you hear 6 feet 6 figures 6 inches from so many women on dating apps. Its demoralizing to be cheated on and be blamed for all the ills. It feels bad when Twitter users post kill all men.

thomastjeffery 4y ago

I hate the way people say "relationship" as if it's a singular data point. Sex is a relationship. Business is a relationship. Friendship is a relationship. Romance is a relationship. Treating several days points as one data point gives us really poor data. Thankfully, a lot of the data in the article is explicitly about "sexual experience". Even so, there is still the loaded question, "Do you want a relationship?" That's just too vague. How can we learn what people's goals are if we aren't willing to ask? All we know boils down to two data points: fewer people are pursuing traditional marriage, and fewer people are having sex. That's not enough to answer the interesting questions. We can't learn what obstacles people have if we don't know their goals.

fluoridation 4y ago
Is there really much ambiguity about what is meant by "relationship" as part of the phrase "relationships and sex"? I think it's pretty obvious it means an exclusive romantic relationship or something approximately along those lines, and not a business partnership.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  Yes, but an exclusive romantic relationship is not the only context people have sex. Romance itself is not sex, nor sex romance. Just because that's historically been a very popular and socially accepted method does not mean it is today. The entire purpose of doing studies like this is to learn something new. The more assumptions we make, the fewer opportunities we have to learn.
somenameforme 4y ago
The study is carried out by the National Fertility Survey. Declining fertility rates drive immense problems in societies, and Japan is at the forefront of this because of both their age and fertility rates. Relationships are important on a micro scale. Fertility is absolutely critical on a macro scale.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago

isochronous 4y ago

Considering Japanese culture, I'm not surprised. This is what happens when you have super-conservative social values backed up by a strong pressure to conform. Few people are willing to take a risk or convey honest feelings, and both of those things are inherent in a romantic relationship.

manquer 4y ago
Wouldn’t strong pressure to confirm mean just finding someone to be in a relationship with even if not happy ? Wouldn’t there be social pressure just as strong or stronger to be married/in a relationship?

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

Tech, including porn, social media, gaming, deluge of escapism video on demand, is just another kind of drug, conditioning everyone to get dopamine hits by pressing buttons rather than bonding with other human beings. I am not saying quit cold turkey, just know that there is a difference between junk food and a meal that is good for you long term. One contributing problem is stigmatizing normal male sexuality to the point men have to completely repress themselves to fit in. One can be a gentleman and still want and pursue physical relationships.

vkou 4y ago
Normal, healthy views on it aren't what's stigmatized. Creepy, unrequited, harassing behaviour sometimes is, in some contexts, and its practitioners love to fall back to the 'Just being nice/don't you like the attention/just boys being boys' defenses when called out on it. The people responsible for it, of course, see themselves as victims, and cry to anyone who will listen about how unfair the world is to them.
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  Nature inclines women to require quite a bit of effort and persistence to be won over, since they make so much investment and require so much help to birth and raise children. There is an intricate set of social norms, developed over centuries, that protects women from over-aggressive suitors while still allowing appropriate courtship to happen. Such courtship necessarily takes place where men and women naturally congregate together, including school and work and includes playful compliments and asking someone out a few times. Young women are naturally attracted to older successful men as good providers, just like as young men often initially go out with older women who are either past childbearing years or have their own practical and emotional resources rather than placing a big burden on their partners. There are reasons to prefer equal/same age relationships, but we shouldn't clutch our pearls when a boss dates a secretary. You can't just throw away hundreds of years of tradition and expect good results from counterfactual expectations on gender that you dreamed up from thin air. Just look at what happened with 20th century efforts to rewrite human nature by decree. Personally I am not in the market and not talking for myself, just feel sorry for the future of humanity. Especially progressive environmentalists got to realize that childless old people grow conservative and don't give a hoot about climate change after they are gone.

at_a_remove 4y ago

I like to think about "Questions nobody wants honest answers to." So here is one, and you can perform an experiment: Go to some kind of forum, maybe Reddit or Quora or Metafilter (just kidding don't do Metafilter unless you are a masochist) and ask the question, "Where can I, as a single hetero male, go to approach women?" My prediction is that you'll get some "OMG DON'T!" responses, and a lot of "where NOT to," which does not answer the actual question. For there to be relationships and/or sex, somebody has to make the approach, and that means a location in spacetime, a where and a when. The workplace, previously one of the largest places where this occurred, has been ruled out, which is a bit troublesome given that most people spend a rather large percentage of their time there. Oh, we kinda stopped going to church, so that is out. Bowling alone ... uh ... then maybe you ask about the library and someone will say "I'm just there to study" or a bar and it becomes "I'm just there to hang out with my friends." Always in the negative. Where are these approaches to take place? Have we collectively decided to hand this over to match.com, Tinder, Grindr, whatever, and now it is all online? If relationships and sex were food and water, there's chunk of people who would expect you to politely starve to death and not make a lot of noise about it.

haunter 4y ago
>Where can I, as a single hetero male, go to approach women https://www.reddit.com/r/socialskills/comments/vw4cw1/places_to_approach_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/socialskills/comments/vw4cw1/places... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/t4il6w/what_are_the_acceptable_places_to_approach_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/t4il6w/what_are_the... https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jtii14/women_of_reddit_where_is_a_good_place_for_a_guy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jtii14/women_of_... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating_advice/comments/ipdr0k/is_there_any_way_to_meet_women_besides_online/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating_advice/comments/ipdr0k/is_th... https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/sn08h/ladies_when_and_where_is_it_ok_to_approach_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/sn08h/ladies_when... https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/v1nqha/should_men_still_approach_women_in_person_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dating/comments/v1nqha/should_men_s... On a personal note I have 3 sisters and I've always heard from them (and their friends) that a lot of women actually disappointed that men doesn't approach them irl. It's a 2 way game for sure but generally men expected to take the first step for sure. But on the other hand there is also a social pressure to "not fuck up", everything is online nowadays and pretty much kept forever. No one wants to be labeled as a creep or such. So a lot of men just choose to not play the game, why risk to lose when you barely have any chance to win at all?

mcguire 4y ago

Two questions: 1. Does this survey include or correct for homosexuals? 2. How correct is it to say there is a "growing indifference" when the levels seem to mostly be approaching their value in the 1980s-90s?