8 ms·

A full Apple Car has always seemed unrealistic to me. Cars are a fundamentally different industry then consumer electronics and software. Apple would be startin

A full Apple Car has always seemed unrealistic to me. Cars are a fundamentally different industry then consumer electronics and software. Apple would be starting from scratch, and facing a lot of entrenched competition with huge budgets and infrastructure. And for what? What could Apple do that GM, Toyota, or Tesla couldn't? Maybe a better UX for the dashboard. And while many car UXs are absolutely terrible, improving them isn't some insurmountable challenge for existing manufacturers. And besides, Apple could just expand carplay and partner with car manufacturers, which seems like it would work better for everyone involved.

sk55 4y ago
Once autonomous technology becomes mainstream, UX becomes the differentiating factor. I think Apple would have a lot to offer.
- anamexis 4y ago
  And the entire rest of the car as well...
- packetlost 4y ago
  The winds don't seem to be blowing in the direction of true autonomous driving through. The hype cycle seems to have died down and the sense of reality is setting in.
  - mberning 4y ago
    Capitulation on “full self driving” is here. Most manufacturers will be lucky to get level 3 automation by the end of the decade
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Level 3 is widely considered to be a bad idea. Relying on a driver to take over quickly is a recipe for disaster.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I suspect that the next phase is some sort of "acceptance" around the limited conditions where full autonomy might be viable in the next decade+. E.g. limited access highways in x lighting/weather conditions. Which actually seems pretty interesting. It's just probably a very big gut-punch to anyone who thought they'd never have to drive/own a car outside of some very limited areas by about now.
- soperj 4y ago
  I don't exactly see Apple as a AI powerhouse, maybe that's coloured by Siri though.
hbn 4y ago
They already showed off giant carplay updates at WWDC this year. They showed a car where the entire dash was a giant wide screen, where it even handled the speedometer, odometer, fuel level, etc https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/09/apples-2023-carplay-is-an-apple-car-preview---and-is-scaring-detroit https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/09/apples-2023-carpl...
- packetlost 4y ago
  I'd rather see standard APIs and hardware mounting systems that let me slot in different hardware to upgrade my cars software + screens + CPU + etc. without having to buy a new car
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    Isn't the point of CarPlay and Android Auto to make this possible, without needing to actually replace hardware? The idea is to make it so the hardware in your car is just a dumb terminal that doesn't ever need to be upgraded. Your infotainment system gets upgraded every time you get a new phone or iOS/Android upgrade.
    - packetlost 4y ago
      Sort of, but they don't let you control things like... climate control, etc.. There's no real reason those APIs can't/don't exist as long as they have proper safety mechanisms in place.
      - macshome 4y ago
        There have long been CarPlay and Siri intents for things like climate control but no automaker has wanted to give up more control inside their dashboard.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Isn’t that the purpose of Android Automative - not to be confused with Android Auto?
waboremo 4y ago
As if Apple is just a tiny little startup looking for VC funds to get into the automotive industry and couldn't possibly compete with Ford. >And for what? Control over the entire driving experience. Just like they are obsessed with controlling the experience of a phone or a tablet and refuse to relegate aspects to partners. >improving them isn't some insurmountable challenge for existing manufacturers You say this but yet car manufacturers continue refusing to do so. It's been years already and sluggish screens are still normal, a bunch of weirdly placed knobs that offer no substantial tactile feedback, wheels that are horrible to hold, here are 3 different screens for some ungodly reason, and list goes on. Now this doesn't mean Apple will get everything right, but their attention to detail isn't something to overlook here and it's a huge advantage in a field where manufacturers have largely gone stagnant. Apple can expand carplay while also manufacturing their own car. Actually, that would be one of the greatest forms of advertising their own car. Here's the pure experience, whereas you're using something tainted by GM. To note, I'm not convinced the Apple Car will happen, but I'm frankly confused by people with the perspective that they have no leverage and nothing to offer here. A car with the Apple brand and nothing new will likely push more units than several new carmakers.
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  > You say this but yet car manufacturers continue refusing to do so. It's been years already and sluggish screens are still normal, a bunch of weirdly placed knobs that offer no substantial tactile feedback, wheels that are horrible to hold, here are 3 different screens for some ungodly reason, and list goes on. The laziness of auto manufacturers is so apparent these days, seeing reports of auto features being turned into subscription-based offerings. I just bought a brand new car that has a fair amount of sensor tech, which makes it difficult to mount 3rd party devices to the windshield because they obstruct the optical sensors. A service I would absolutely (and begrudgingly) pay for would be a built-in dash cam with a cloud integration. They already have all of the tech and expertise in-house. They would make a killing and I'm sure insurance companies would get on board too. But no, let's attach a monthly fee to heated seats instead.
- lowercased 4y ago
  > As if Apple is just a tiny little startup looking for VC funds to get into the automotive industry and couldn't possibly compete with Ford. Ford's market cap is $47b. Apple has more than that free cash on hand. I suspect Apple would 'partner with', then eventually just subsume, an existing card company, if they really wanted to get in to this. You're buying a lot of existing infrastructure (dealers, parts, distribution, warehouses, etc) that would take a long time to replicate.
paxys 4y ago
The biggest reason that cars have horrible UX is that consumers don't care about it. No one is buying one for how good the speedometer looks. Give me a good performance and MPG. Make the components last long and be serviceable. Make it look good on the outside. Put advanced safety features. Perform well in crash tests. A hundred more of these and maybe the car will be worth buying. People here are delusional when they go oh, Apple can make a better Carplay integration and easily outsell Ford and Tesla.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > People here are delusional when they go oh, Apple can make a better Carplay integration and easily outsell Ford and Tesla OTOH, why do most people buy a Tesla right now? "How good the speedometer looks" is a pretty good description. Performance is good, reliability awful, UI usability awful unless you like fancy computer graphics. As a car, a Model 3/Y has a lot of compromises and lacks many features other cars have. But that computer screen... To be fair, "image seekers" (traditional automotive terminology) most likely comprise the vast majority of Model 3/Y buyers at this stage. This is an area where Apple has a strong history of success. But I don't think it's a good fit, making cars is expensive and completely different from everything else they do.
  - mercutio2 4y ago
    There’s a lot I don’t like about Tesla. But your list of good/bad didn’t include a single word about the Supercharger network, which is the #1 reason people who want electric vehicles choose Tesla, in my experience. I agree that the big screen is annoying, but I put up with it so I can go on road trips and not rent a car or limp around searching for charging.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I specifically don’t want a Tesla because of the shitty infotainment system and lack of support for AirPlay.
treis 4y ago
I think it's looking at Tesla's 875 billion dollar market cap and saying "I can do that". Which I think they can. They'll sell a ton of cars on brand alone so long as they don't mess it up. It's kind of an interesting dichotomy. You can look at Toyota, GM, Tesla, etc. and say why would Apple be interested in those profits. But then you look at Tesla's market cap and then it's obvious why Apple would want some of that. Ultimately I think the Apple car (and Tesla) is a long term bust. Automotive manufacturing is a well trod industry with, frankly, too many companies as is. I don't see how they could ever generate the sort of profits long term that the market caps imply.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Tesla is basically an overrated meme stick by any reasonable valuation. Apple isn’t going to get that type of added market cap based on adding an addition $3 billion in net profit (what Tesla made)
  - munk-a 4y ago
    Tesla definitely has some smoke and mirrors going on and is clearly overvalued but I feel like calling them a meme stock at this point is pretty inaccurate. Teslas are on the road doing things and the company is selling them in pretty serious quantities... all against the seemingly iron willed determination of Elon Musk to bankrupt the company by creating a PR nightmare and wasting money.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Compare their sales and profits to other car makers. They are grossly overvalued
      - r00fus 4y ago
        Overvalued, yes. Completely? Hell no.
      - treis 4y ago
fullshark 4y ago
> What could Apple do that GM, Toyota, or Tesla couldn't? I think they filed some patent that revealed their competitive advantage was based on the premise they were uniquely capable of extracting range and charge out of batteries via optimizations and their experiences building consumer electronics. If they delivered somehow an electric vehicle with much better UX across the board they could build a healthy car business.
agumonkey 4y ago
I guess smartphones were also outside of their main field, they were the underdog and rapidly took over. They're probably seeking domains to replicate because phones won't sell forever.
munk-a 4y ago
Personally, I'm waffling. "Gosh this is totally new hardware" could equally well be applied to the iPod launch or a dozen other devices - my personal doubt (that while we'll always have some cars the number of them is going to take a real nose dive sometime in the next two decades) is also kinda disproven by apple. Watches were on death's doorstop except for as weird wealthy status symbols - nobody was chomping at the bit asking Apple to make a watch but they made one and, while it isn't doing extremely well, it's certainly a market presence. So I feel like they probably could throw enough money at the problem to come up with a solution of some kind but it also just feels like a waste to me.
morcheeba 4y ago
It's funny how those are the same arguments people made when a company that built PCs started making phones. How could they compete with Verizon?! They were thinking evolutionary, but the iPhone had so many fundamental changes (technological, business, social) that upended an industry and made new ones. I'm not saying the car is a good idea, but Apple has overcome entrenched competition before with very capable competitors.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zx10rse 4y ago
Tesla is pretty much a software company. Apple or any other company that wants to step in the EV market can be huge, if they focus on build quality and user experience, and by user experience I don't mean just the UX dashboard. There is a huge room for innovation in the automotive industry, I argue that we still haven't saw the next Model T 100 years later, and the industry grew a lot. Give the people an affordable well build, reliable, easily serviceable car, and you might outsell Toyota Corolla. Apple started from scratch with the ipod, iphone, watch. Can they do it and with a car, I don't know they certainly have the budget, they certainly can find the talent, the only question is do they have the vision.
- askvictor 4y ago
  Software companies don't have to manage production, inventory, shipping, or a heap of things that are crucial to physical products. Tesla do a heap of interesting things in software, but that doesn't make them pretty much a software company.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    Apple does do this, just not for cars. They have a massive and fine tuned global supply chain for all their hardware devices. I imagine some of that expertise would play well in the car market, but I'm certain much as Tesla did, they may hit road bumps along the way, however its not completely out of their DNA to handle this sort of thing.

sk55 4y ago

Once autonomous technology becomes mainstream, UX becomes the differentiating factor. I think Apple would have a lot to offer.

anamexis 4y ago
And the entire rest of the car as well...
packetlost 4y ago
The winds don't seem to be blowing in the direction of true autonomous driving through. The hype cycle seems to have died down and the sense of reality is setting in.
- mberning 4y ago
  Capitulation on “full self driving” is here. Most manufacturers will be lucky to get level 3 automation by the end of the decade
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Level 3 is widely considered to be a bad idea. Relying on a driver to take over quickly is a recipe for disaster.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I suspect that the next phase is some sort of "acceptance" around the limited conditions where full autonomy might be viable in the next decade+. E.g. limited access highways in x lighting/weather conditions. Which actually seems pretty interesting. It's just probably a very big gut-punch to anyone who thought they'd never have to drive/own a car outside of some very limited areas by about now.
soperj 4y ago
I don't exactly see Apple as a AI powerhouse, maybe that's coloured by Siri though.

hbn 4y ago

They already showed off giant carplay updates at WWDC this year. They showed a car where the entire dash was a giant wide screen, where it even handled the speedometer, odometer, fuel level, etc https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/09/apples-2023-carplay-is-an-apple-car-preview---and-is-scaring-detroit https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/09/apples-2023-carpl...

packetlost 4y ago
I'd rather see standard APIs and hardware mounting systems that let me slot in different hardware to upgrade my cars software + screens + CPU + etc. without having to buy a new car
- babypuncher 4y ago
  Isn't the point of CarPlay and Android Auto to make this possible, without needing to actually replace hardware? The idea is to make it so the hardware in your car is just a dumb terminal that doesn't ever need to be upgraded. Your infotainment system gets upgraded every time you get a new phone or iOS/Android upgrade.
  - packetlost 4y ago
    Sort of, but they don't let you control things like... climate control, etc.. There's no real reason those APIs can't/don't exist as long as they have proper safety mechanisms in place.
    - macshome 4y ago
      There have long been CarPlay and Siri intents for things like climate control but no automaker has wanted to give up more control inside their dashboard.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Isn’t that the purpose of Android Automative - not to be confused with Android Auto?

waboremo 4y ago

As if Apple is just a tiny little startup looking for VC funds to get into the automotive industry and couldn't possibly compete with Ford. >And for what? Control over the entire driving experience. Just like they are obsessed with controlling the experience of a phone or a tablet and refuse to relegate aspects to partners. >improving them isn't some insurmountable challenge for existing manufacturers You say this but yet car manufacturers continue refusing to do so. It's been years already and sluggish screens are still normal, a bunch of weirdly placed knobs that offer no substantial tactile feedback, wheels that are horrible to hold, here are 3 different screens for some ungodly reason, and list goes on. Now this doesn't mean Apple will get everything right, but their attention to detail isn't something to overlook here and it's a huge advantage in a field where manufacturers have largely gone stagnant. Apple can expand carplay while also manufacturing their own car. Actually, that would be one of the greatest forms of advertising their own car. Here's the pure experience, whereas you're using something tainted by GM. To note, I'm not convinced the Apple Car will happen, but I'm frankly confused by people with the perspective that they have no leverage and nothing to offer here. A car with the Apple brand and nothing new will likely push more units than several new carmakers.

thr0wawayf00 4y ago
> You say this but yet car manufacturers continue refusing to do so. It's been years already and sluggish screens are still normal, a bunch of weirdly placed knobs that offer no substantial tactile feedback, wheels that are horrible to hold, here are 3 different screens for some ungodly reason, and list goes on. The laziness of auto manufacturers is so apparent these days, seeing reports of auto features being turned into subscription-based offerings. I just bought a brand new car that has a fair amount of sensor tech, which makes it difficult to mount 3rd party devices to the windshield because they obstruct the optical sensors. A service I would absolutely (and begrudgingly) pay for would be a built-in dash cam with a cloud integration. They already have all of the tech and expertise in-house. They would make a killing and I'm sure insurance companies would get on board too. But no, let's attach a monthly fee to heated seats instead.
lowercased 4y ago
> As if Apple is just a tiny little startup looking for VC funds to get into the automotive industry and couldn't possibly compete with Ford. Ford's market cap is $47b. Apple has more than that free cash on hand. I suspect Apple would 'partner with', then eventually just subsume, an existing card company, if they really wanted to get in to this. You're buying a lot of existing infrastructure (dealers, parts, distribution, warehouses, etc) that would take a long time to replicate.

paxys 4y ago

The biggest reason that cars have horrible UX is that consumers don't care about it. No one is buying one for how good the speedometer looks. Give me a good performance and MPG. Make the components last long and be serviceable. Make it look good on the outside. Put advanced safety features. Perform well in crash tests. A hundred more of these and maybe the car will be worth buying. People here are delusional when they go oh, Apple can make a better Carplay integration and easily outsell Ford and Tesla.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> People here are delusional when they go oh, Apple can make a better Carplay integration and easily outsell Ford and Tesla OTOH, why do most people buy a Tesla right now? "How good the speedometer looks" is a pretty good description. Performance is good, reliability awful, UI usability awful unless you like fancy computer graphics. As a car, a Model 3/Y has a lot of compromises and lacks many features other cars have. But that computer screen... To be fair, "image seekers" (traditional automotive terminology) most likely comprise the vast majority of Model 3/Y buyers at this stage. This is an area where Apple has a strong history of success. But I don't think it's a good fit, making cars is expensive and completely different from everything else they do.
- mercutio2 4y ago
  There’s a lot I don’t like about Tesla. But your list of good/bad didn’t include a single word about the Supercharger network, which is the #1 reason people who want electric vehicles choose Tesla, in my experience. I agree that the big screen is annoying, but I put up with it so I can go on road trips and not rent a car or limp around searching for charging.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- scarface74 4y ago
  I specifically don’t want a Tesla because of the shitty infotainment system and lack of support for AirPlay.

treis 4y ago

I think it's looking at Tesla's 875 billion dollar market cap and saying "I can do that". Which I think they can. They'll sell a ton of cars on brand alone so long as they don't mess it up. It's kind of an interesting dichotomy. You can look at Toyota, GM, Tesla, etc. and say why would Apple be interested in those profits. But then you look at Tesla's market cap and then it's obvious why Apple would want some of that. Ultimately I think the Apple car (and Tesla) is a long term bust. Automotive manufacturing is a well trod industry with, frankly, too many companies as is. I don't see how they could ever generate the sort of profits long term that the market caps imply.

scarface74 4y ago
Tesla is basically an overrated meme stick by any reasonable valuation. Apple isn’t going to get that type of added market cap based on adding an addition $3 billion in net profit (what Tesla made)
- munk-a 4y ago
  Tesla definitely has some smoke and mirrors going on and is clearly overvalued but I feel like calling them a meme stock at this point is pretty inaccurate. Teslas are on the road doing things and the company is selling them in pretty serious quantities... all against the seemingly iron willed determination of Elon Musk to bankrupt the company by creating a PR nightmare and wasting money.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Compare their sales and profits to other car makers. They are grossly overvalued
    - r00fus 4y ago
      Overvalued, yes. Completely? Hell no.
    - treis 4y ago

fullshark 4y ago

> What could Apple do that GM, Toyota, or Tesla couldn't? I think they filed some patent that revealed their competitive advantage was based on the premise they were uniquely capable of extracting range and charge out of batteries via optimizations and their experiences building consumer electronics. If they delivered somehow an electric vehicle with much better UX across the board they could build a healthy car business.

agumonkey 4y ago

I guess smartphones were also outside of their main field, they were the underdog and rapidly took over. They're probably seeking domains to replicate because phones won't sell forever.

munk-a 4y ago

Personally, I'm waffling. "Gosh this is totally new hardware" could equally well be applied to the iPod launch or a dozen other devices - my personal doubt (that while we'll always have some cars the number of them is going to take a real nose dive sometime in the next two decades) is also kinda disproven by apple. Watches were on death's doorstop except for as weird wealthy status symbols - nobody was chomping at the bit asking Apple to make a watch but they made one and, while it isn't doing extremely well, it's certainly a market presence. So I feel like they probably could throw enough money at the problem to come up with a solution of some kind but it also just feels like a waste to me.

morcheeba 4y ago

It's funny how those are the same arguments people made when a company that built PCs started making phones. How could they compete with Verizon?! They were thinking evolutionary, but the iPhone had so many fundamental changes (technological, business, social) that upended an industry and made new ones. I'm not saying the car is a good idea, but Apple has overcome entrenched competition before with very capable competitors.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zx10rse 4y ago

Tesla is pretty much a software company. Apple or any other company that wants to step in the EV market can be huge, if they focus on build quality and user experience, and by user experience I don't mean just the UX dashboard. There is a huge room for innovation in the automotive industry, I argue that we still haven't saw the next Model T 100 years later, and the industry grew a lot. Give the people an affordable well build, reliable, easily serviceable car, and you might outsell Toyota Corolla. Apple started from scratch with the ipod, iphone, watch. Can they do it and with a car, I don't know they certainly have the budget, they certainly can find the talent, the only question is do they have the vision.

askvictor 4y ago
Software companies don't have to manage production, inventory, shipping, or a heap of things that are crucial to physical products. Tesla do a heap of interesting things in software, but that doesn't make them pretty much a software company.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Apple does do this, just not for cars. They have a massive and fine tuned global supply chain for all their hardware devices. I imagine some of that expertise would play well in the car market, but I'm certain much as Tesla did, they may hit road bumps along the way, however its not completely out of their DNA to handle this sort of thing.