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The conspiracy theory is that either the United States or some member of NATO sabotaged the pipeline so that Germany will not have the option of easing up on sa

The conspiracy theory is that either the United States or some member of NATO sabotaged the pipeline so that Germany will not have the option of easing up on sanctions in order to purchase Russian Gas this winter.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
Not every theory about conspiracy is a conspiracy theory. Fixed version: > The theory is that either the United States or some member of NATO conspired and sabotaged the pipeline so that Germany will not have the option of easing up on sanctions in order to purchase Russian Gas this winter.
- gpderetta 4y ago
  Even the German government might have done it in a "burn the boats" strategy. I don't think Russia had interests in doing it, unless it is for some internal power play. edit: or plausible denial when they won't send gas to Europe this winter. But do they even need the deniability at this point?
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    This is a valid conspiracy.... when it gets cold, people will protest, and demand that their government sits down with putin and make a deal... with the pipes blown, the government can say that they can't do anything, and that it's not their fault.
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    > Even the German government might have done it in a "burn the boats" strategy. I would prefer to assume governments are somewhat rational actors, who at least try to act in the interest of the own country. In this case, the biggest loser from destroying NS1 and NS2 is Germany, second-biggest Russia and the rest of the Europe, sorted descending by the dependency on Russian gas. As for the winners, we have the USA and Ukraine as biggest immediate winners, and indirectly and in the long-term India, China, Arab countries, ...
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      Ok, what if NATO collectively (or at least the affected members) decided to destroy the pipeline in a show of resolution? Let's say secret negotiations are ongoing (it would be surprising if they weren't) with Russia regarding a winter ceasefire. Russia annexes the occupied regions to force the hand and be in a better position, then offers gas in exchange of no NATO military help during the ceasefire. NATO rejects the offer and blows the pipeline to show it is off the table.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  Perhaps I should have said 'conjecture' instead. I felt like using the term conspiracy because the explanation seems plausible while simultaneously devious and covert.
omnibrain 4y ago
Another conspiracy theory is, that Russia did it, to sow these types of doubt.
- butthatsit 4y ago
  Isn't that exactly from their playbook? I mean the neofascist book by Dugin about pseudo-geopolitics that they made required reading at the military universities. "Foundation of Geopolitics" is the name.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    This is every nation states playbook.
    - butthatsit 4y ago
      No, it's not. My state never tried to do anything even remotely like what's described as standard practice in the book (and what's provably being done by them here).
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        Where do you live and how do you know they haven't done anything like this?
        butthatsit 4y ago
        This state doesn't even have the agencies that would do it, much less a budget for them. The agencies we have - they have reporting requirements, and these are checked to be accurate by elected auditors.
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        Where do you live Andorra or Lichtenstein or some place like that which has like 10 people? I can't imagine any country that has some decent amount of people not having agencies who would be capable of doing stuff like this.
sudden_dystopia 4y ago
It’s not a conspiracy theory. Some group conspired to sabotage the pipelines. It’s a conspiracy fact. The only theoretical aspect is who did it and that’s more of a hypothesis at this point. It’s a conspiracy hypothesis.
- Bud 4y ago
  Could we please have at least a shred of evidence of sabotage before we move on to the phase where we conclude there was sabotage? Sorry to be a stickler about major geopolitical crises.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    Two pipelines bust at once on Nord 1 and 2? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/27/nord-stream-1-2-pipelines-leak-baltic-sabotage-fears https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/27/nord-stream...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - krisoft 4y ago
    There are 3 separate but simultaneous "accidents" on the pipelines. Do you have a proposal which would explain that and not involve sabotage?
    - bobowzki 4y ago
      They could have been fitted with explosives before for some reason and it was triggered by accident.
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  but it's a theory as of now and hence a "conspiracy theory". I'd like to mention that for me "conspiracy theory" is not a term I frown upon. It's been labelled as something equivalent to "dangerous tin foil hat bullshit" by some politicians and news outlets who'd like us to believe that history unfolds linearly and obviously.
amelius 4y ago
That depends on how heavily it got damaged, and how easy it is to restore the damage.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

Not every theory about conspiracy is a conspiracy theory. Fixed version: > The theory is that either the United States or some member of NATO conspired and sabotaged the pipeline so that Germany will not have the option of easing up on sanctions in order to purchase Russian Gas this winter.

gpderetta 4y ago
Even the German government might have done it in a "burn the boats" strategy. I don't think Russia had interests in doing it, unless it is for some internal power play. edit: or plausible denial when they won't send gas to Europe this winter. But do they even need the deniability at this point?
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  This is a valid conspiracy.... when it gets cold, people will protest, and demand that their government sits down with putin and make a deal... with the pipes blown, the government can say that they can't do anything, and that it's not their fault.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > Even the German government might have done it in a "burn the boats" strategy. I would prefer to assume governments are somewhat rational actors, who at least try to act in the interest of the own country. In this case, the biggest loser from destroying NS1 and NS2 is Germany, second-biggest Russia and the rest of the Europe, sorted descending by the dependency on Russian gas. As for the winners, we have the USA and Ukraine as biggest immediate winners, and indirectly and in the long-term India, China, Arab countries, ...
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    Ok, what if NATO collectively (or at least the affected members) decided to destroy the pipeline in a show of resolution? Let's say secret negotiations are ongoing (it would be surprising if they weren't) with Russia regarding a winter ceasefire. Russia annexes the occupied regions to force the hand and be in a better position, then offers gas in exchange of no NATO military help during the ceasefire. NATO rejects the offer and blows the pipeline to show it is off the table.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
Perhaps I should have said 'conjecture' instead. I felt like using the term conspiracy because the explanation seems plausible while simultaneously devious and covert.

omnibrain 4y ago

Another conspiracy theory is, that Russia did it, to sow these types of doubt.

butthatsit 4y ago
Isn't that exactly from their playbook? I mean the neofascist book by Dugin about pseudo-geopolitics that they made required reading at the military universities. "Foundation of Geopolitics" is the name.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  This is every nation states playbook.
  - butthatsit 4y ago
    No, it's not. My state never tried to do anything even remotely like what's described as standard practice in the book (and what's provably being done by them here).
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      Where do you live and how do you know they haven't done anything like this?
      - butthatsit 4y ago
        This state doesn't even have the agencies that would do it, much less a budget for them. The agencies we have - they have reporting requirements, and these are checked to be accurate by elected auditors.
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        Where do you live Andorra or Lichtenstein or some place like that which has like 10 people? I can't imagine any country that has some decent amount of people not having agencies who would be capable of doing stuff like this.

sudden_dystopia 4y ago

It’s not a conspiracy theory. Some group conspired to sabotage the pipelines. It’s a conspiracy fact. The only theoretical aspect is who did it and that’s more of a hypothesis at this point. It’s a conspiracy hypothesis.

Bud 4y ago
Could we please have at least a shred of evidence of sabotage before we move on to the phase where we conclude there was sabotage? Sorry to be a stickler about major geopolitical crises.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  Two pipelines bust at once on Nord 1 and 2? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/27/nord-stream-1-2-pipelines-leak-baltic-sabotage-fears https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/27/nord-stream...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- krisoft 4y ago
  There are 3 separate but simultaneous "accidents" on the pipelines. Do you have a proposal which would explain that and not involve sabotage?
  - bobowzki 4y ago
    They could have been fitted with explosives before for some reason and it was triggered by accident.
2-718-281-828 4y ago
but it's a theory as of now and hence a "conspiracy theory". I'd like to mention that for me "conspiracy theory" is not a term I frown upon. It's been labelled as something equivalent to "dangerous tin foil hat bullshit" by some politicians and news outlets who'd like us to believe that history unfolds linearly and obviously.

amelius 4y ago

That depends on how heavily it got damaged, and how easy it is to restore the damage.