6 ms·

As an outsider to the chess world, this all seems like a roundabout way of saying "we have no evidence that he cheated, but in lieu of evidence let's go with gu

As an outsider to the chess world, this all seems like a roundabout way of saying "we have no evidence that he cheated, but in lieu of evidence let's go with gut feelings".

casion 4y ago
He did cheat in impactful events, and he admitted it.
- roflyear 4y ago
  - blangk 4y ago
    Hans?
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Yeah. He cheated online. By his own admission. I wouldn't say that is impactful events.
  - casion 4y ago
    Online games often: - are how players make their living in cash tournaments - qualify for OTB events (including wct events) - are rated by FIDE or national organizations - count for points in otb/online hybrid tournaments. All of those are significantly impactful for a professional player.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      That's barely true.
      - Bud 4y ago
        In other words, it's completely true. Right? Things are either true, or not. Which is it? Come on, just have the guts to admit it.
        roflyear 4y ago
        No, lots of half truths, non substantiated. - are how players make their living in cash tournaments Players make their living in titled tuesday events? I guess the winner gets $1,500... so if you win every week.. - qualify for OTB events (including wct events) Titled tuesday qualifies you for OTB events? where did you get this from? first time I'm hearing it. - are rated by FIDE or national organizations Titled tuesday is rated by FIDE? - count for points in otb/online hybrid tournaments. Titled tuesday ... again... Hardly anything what you said is true.
jobs_throwaway 4y ago
A documented history of cheating online counts as "no evidence" in your book?
- roflyear 4y ago
  It is zero evidence that Hans has ever cheated OTB, yeah.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Past criminal behavior is routinely admitted as evidence in court. It's not proof, but it is evidence. You're refusing to see this, by the way. You're capable of understanding what I said without me saying it.
    - thundrio 4y ago
      Is criminal activity as a minor used as evidence in Adult trials? I feel like that should hold less water
    - roflyear 4y ago
      This isn't a court, and it isn't criminal behavior. If it was a court and it was criminal behavior, we'd expect innocent until proven guilty and the benefit of the doubt. Which no one is giving Hans.
- root_axis 4y ago
  Is a conviction evidence of a future crime? No, it isn't.
  - krembanan 4y ago
    It certainly doesn't help his case. If you have had troubles with the law prior to a new crime, it gets taken into consideration negatively by the judge. Same with cheaters. It means he is a cheater by definition and has the moral compass to cheat again.
nonethewiser 4y ago
That's exactly what this means.
roflyear 4y ago
Yeah it is 100% what it means. In contrast with the me-too stuff, Magnus did not even see Hans cheat. If Magnus could say Most people just don't like Hans. They don't like his personality, so they have motivation to pile on. See this comment that has been linked EVERYWHERE: https://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80630&start=100#p933597 https://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80630&start... Nevermind have people shot down this dudes analysis, but he says in the post "But, if you will permit some editorializing, despite Niemann's claims that "it's impossible to play under these conditions," he gives every indication of quite enjoying the attention." What fucking garbage that is a smear on the face of chess.
- VintageCool 4y ago
  That comment seems pretty damning. Maybe it would help your point to link rebuttal.
Tao3300 4y ago
It kinda smacks of some deficit in the modern game. Consider a hypothetical chess player who does not cheat, never has cheated, but through some combination of the occasional atypical move or odd behavior, makes players think they are cheating. They seem to be saying that such behavior can confer an advantage — that to seem to be cheating is itself cheating. I say we carry on like normal. Either Niemann's success falls apart, he messes up and gets caught, or we find out he's actually onto something brilliant.
zamalek 4y ago
Not exactly. Chess GMs have a somewhat "over-fitted gut." On studies done on their memory, they could routinely recall a chess board after seeing that board for only a few moments provided that the layout the pieces could be reached in a regular game. When the board was laid out in an unlikely manner, they performed no better than the control group.[1] Let's say you arrive home with your 2y/o child and are greeted with dog shit on the floor. If I asked the 2y/o who shat on the floor they wouldn't be able to answer, but you could easily deduce that the dog did it. Why? Because you have an immense bank of experience concerning everyday causality that the 2y/o doesn't have. Magnus has a bank of human chess moves in his mind, that we don't. He knows that the dog shat on the floor. And keep in mind that Magnus has not thrown this accusation around in the past, even in the face of defeat. [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-study-shows-grandma/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-study-shows...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
LightG 4y ago
I cheated with your wife, but would you like to go to dinner with me to discuss business? I promise I won't do it again. Thanks

As an outsider to the chess world, this all seems like a roundabout way of saying "we have no evidence that he cheated, but in lieu of evidence let's go with gut feelings".

casion 4y ago

He did cheat in impactful events, and he admitted it.

roflyear 4y ago
- blangk 4y ago
  Hans?
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Yeah. He cheated online. By his own admission. I wouldn't say that is impactful events.
- casion 4y ago
  Online games often: - are how players make their living in cash tournaments - qualify for OTB events (including wct events) - are rated by FIDE or national organizations - count for points in otb/online hybrid tournaments. All of those are significantly impactful for a professional player.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    That's barely true.
    - Bud 4y ago
      In other words, it's completely true. Right? Things are either true, or not. Which is it? Come on, just have the guts to admit it.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        No, lots of half truths, non substantiated. - are how players make their living in cash tournaments Players make their living in titled tuesday events? I guess the winner gets $1,500... so if you win every week.. - qualify for OTB events (including wct events) Titled tuesday qualifies you for OTB events? where did you get this from? first time I'm hearing it. - are rated by FIDE or national organizations Titled tuesday is rated by FIDE? - count for points in otb/online hybrid tournaments. Titled tuesday ... again... Hardly anything what you said is true.

jobs_throwaway 4y ago

A documented history of cheating online counts as "no evidence" in your book?

roflyear 4y ago
It is zero evidence that Hans has ever cheated OTB, yeah.
- samatman 4y ago
  Past criminal behavior is routinely admitted as evidence in court. It's not proof, but it is evidence. You're refusing to see this, by the way. You're capable of understanding what I said without me saying it.
  - thundrio 4y ago
    Is criminal activity as a minor used as evidence in Adult trials? I feel like that should hold less water
  - roflyear 4y ago
    This isn't a court, and it isn't criminal behavior. If it was a court and it was criminal behavior, we'd expect innocent until proven guilty and the benefit of the doubt. Which no one is giving Hans.
root_axis 4y ago
Is a conviction evidence of a future crime? No, it isn't.
- krembanan 4y ago
  It certainly doesn't help his case. If you have had troubles with the law prior to a new crime, it gets taken into consideration negatively by the judge. Same with cheaters. It means he is a cheater by definition and has the moral compass to cheat again.

nonethewiser 4y ago

That's exactly what this means.

roflyear 4y ago

Yeah it is 100% what it means. In contrast with the me-too stuff, Magnus did not even see Hans cheat. If Magnus could say Most people just don't like Hans. They don't like his personality, so they have motivation to pile on. See this comment that has been linked EVERYWHERE: https://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80630&start=100#p933597 https://talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80630&start... Nevermind have people shot down this dudes analysis, but he says in the post "But, if you will permit some editorializing, despite Niemann's claims that "it's impossible to play under these conditions," he gives every indication of quite enjoying the attention." What fucking garbage that is a smear on the face of chess.

VintageCool 4y ago
That comment seems pretty damning. Maybe it would help your point to link rebuttal.

Tao3300 4y ago

It kinda smacks of some deficit in the modern game. Consider a hypothetical chess player who does not cheat, never has cheated, but through some combination of the occasional atypical move or odd behavior, makes players think they are cheating. They seem to be saying that such behavior can confer an advantage — that to seem to be cheating is itself cheating. I say we carry on like normal. Either Niemann's success falls apart, he messes up and gets caught, or we find out he's actually onto something brilliant.

zamalek 4y ago

Not exactly. Chess GMs have a somewhat "over-fitted gut." On studies done on their memory, they could routinely recall a chess board after seeing that board for only a few moments provided that the layout the pieces could be reached in a regular game. When the board was laid out in an unlikely manner, they performed no better than the control group.[1] Let's say you arrive home with your 2y/o child and are greeted with dog shit on the floor. If I asked the 2y/o who shat on the floor they wouldn't be able to answer, but you could easily deduce that the dog did it. Why? Because you have an immense bank of experience concerning everyday causality that the 2y/o doesn't have. Magnus has a bank of human chess moves in his mind, that we don't. He knows that the dog shat on the floor. And keep in mind that Magnus has not thrown this accusation around in the past, even in the face of defeat. [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-study-shows-grandma/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/brain-study-shows...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

LightG 4y ago

I cheated with your wife, but would you like to go to dinner with me to discuss business? I promise I won't do it again. Thanks