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I'm all for manufacturing jobs coming back but do we have adequate environment protection to safely facilitate that kind of change? Part of the reason the air i

I'm all for manufacturing jobs coming back but do we have adequate environment protection to safely facilitate that kind of change? Part of the reason the air is so clean in the US is partially due to offshoring (for better or for worse).

buescher 4y ago
Short answer: yes. Despite the doomsayers and the fact that you might not know anyone that works in manufacturing, the US is still a manufacturing powerhouse. https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scorecard-how-the-us-compares-to-18-other-nations/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scor... At 18% of global manufacturing output already, "a net gain of 67,000 workers above prepandemic levels" is not going to move the needle.
- MisterMower 4y ago
  It’s all final assembly automotive and aerospace. It’s not real manufacturing. All the real components from screws to relays to sheet metal and injection molded plastic parts are made somewhere other than the US. But yeah, if you export 300 787’s and A320’s each year, you’ll get the false impression the US is a manufacturing “powerhouse.”
  - PenguinCoder 4y ago
    Gatekeep much?
    - MisterMower 4y ago
      Refute arguments much? Explain where I’m mistaken.
      - buescher 4y ago
        You're just wrong. Yes, US manufacturing is mostly high-value-add stuff. Because wages are high. Don't go into hock to start a toothpick factory in the USA. But go look up how many people are employed in manufacturing. 67,000 does not move the needle, though it's probably a lot as a percentage of new jobs. And automotive and aerospace are not the two biggest sectors of US manufacturing. (Boeing was the largest exporter for years though, probably still is). Look it up.
        MisterMower 4y ago
        Is mating two fuselage sections made in Mexico and slapping on engines made in Malaysia manufacturing? Not in my book. That’s assembly, not manufacturing, regardless of how lucrative it may be.
        buescher 4y ago
        You're just wrong. US manufacturing is a lot more than final assembly of airplanes and automobiles. Aerospace and automotive aren't the top manufacturing sectors either. You're just wrong about that. You can look up that you're just wrong, but you're not bothering to. You can look up that final assembly is manufacturing - your book is just wrong. Why should I take "your book" seriously about anything?
        MisterMower 4y ago
        > US manufacturing is a lot more than final assembly of airplanes and automobiles. The truth of the matter is the bulk of the components that matter in those products are made somewhere other than the US. The hard work is done elsewhere. I just replaced a capacitor in my 2009 Maytag washing machine. Original capacitor was made in Mexico. The replacement was from Taiwan. The motor was made in China. Every product "made" in the US is a hodgepodge of imported components. > You can look up that final assembly is manufacturing I don't dispute that that's how it gets measured in official statistics, but I'm telling you it's a misrepresentation of what's actually occurring in industry. I work for an OEM aerospace manufacturer. Fuselages get made in Mexico. Wings get made in Japan. Engines get made in Europe and most parts for them are sourced from Russia, which is causing major shortages right now. Landing gear are forged in Brazil. We used to do it all here in the US, now we have a paint booth and a service center. But hey, final assembly is manufacturing! The US is an industrial powerhouse! Seriously, go look around your house. Show me a piece of furniture or appliance that was made in the US. You can't. You'd be lucky to have one that was assembled in the US. Shoot, your phone and computer probably weren't even made here. And if they were, again, the important parts that took all the work were probably made in Asia. Believe me, I wish I were wrong. I would love to be wrong. But you saying I'm wrong doesn't change reality. Stop believing statistics that are built on lies and start believing what you can clearly see before your very eyes.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
      That’s not gatekeeping, it’s disambiguating disingenuous statistic usage that implies a reality that that dos not exist.
- mlsu 4y ago
  This statistic is often trotted out. It's in dollars, which is very misleading and forms an incomplete picture of the ecosystem required to have true manufacturing ability. We do final assembly on an automobile and that gets registered as big $$$. But it's actually pretty easy to assemble a bunch of already-made parts. Much more difficult (and quite a lot of skill, built up over decades) to make the fuel pump from raw inputs! We lack completely the lower three-quarters of the pyramid. By this same logic, I did $500 in manufacturing this quarter because I assembled two Billy bookcase... nah. You don't know anyone because... we don't do a lot of manufacturing. The pre-made imported parts come into a handful of Toyota factories, and a whole bunch of very expensive SUVs come out. That's how you can get such a high $$$ number and not know anyone who works manufacturing.
  - buescher 4y ago
    Sure, the whole supply chain is not in the US, and less of it is in the US than in past decades. That is not the point. You probably don't know anyone who works in manufacturing because you're in the demographic that reads hackernews. Using the automotive industry as an example is a big tell, you know, because a whole lot more than cars is manufactured in the US. Manufacturing is not a huge percentage of US employment, but it is much, much bigger than you think in raw numbers. Go look it up - 67,000 does not move the needle, though it's a big percentage of new jobs.
rdtwo 4y ago
No they are all going to areas with lax regulations.
api 4y ago
We live on one planet. Offshoring makes pollution a lot worse by not only moving it to where there's lax regulations but adding a whole bunch of additional energy cost to ship everything back here. Manufacturing where there are environmental regulations will push improvements in efficiency and waste management too, making the process more efficient in the long run.
- kombucha13 4y ago
  I dont disagree. I hope that adequate environmental regulations persist and those improvements in efficiency are realized.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Depends what sort of pollution though - obviously if you're talking GHG emissions or many other small-molecule airborne pollutants (though not CO) it doesn't really matter where it's being emitted. But other sorts of pollution are much more local, and depending on the surrounding ecosystem (esp. waterways) and level of human habitation, it very much may well make sense to ensure it only occurs in areas where it will have less harmful effect.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Agree with your comments but ghg are not pollutants. They are a necessary part of an ecosystem that is being tipped too far in one direction
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Sounds a bit like the claim that micronutrients like zinc or cadmium can't qualify as toxins (despite having toxic qualities at high doses).
- landemva 4y ago
  About the only tax increase in USA I would support is an incoming environmental parity tariff. Make iStuff in China India Indonesia, though the incoming environmental tariff won't make it cheaper to pollute over there.
gedy 4y ago
Compared to rest of world? Yes
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Much of the rest of the world, yes. Compared to maybe Germany perhaps not as much.
daniel-cussen 4y ago
Cept in San Francisco, it swirls all the way from China and like 18% of the air pollution is from there. Like it was a suckafucking Japanese balloon bomb, the first intercontinental ranged weapon, only dent the Japanese made in the Manhattan Project was with that balloon. Very overpowered. It's not such a big planet.
twblalock 4y ago
It’s a fantasy to think we can have modern society without some form of environmental damage, and it’s also a fantasy to believe that factory jobs would be less damaging to the environment if they were located in other countries.
- kombucha13 4y ago
  Thats not what I was saying at all. I don't prefer the outsourcing of pollution.
outside1234 4y ago
It can't be worse than what was happening in China
mensetmanusman 4y ago
The world shares the air.
landemva 4y ago
No worries about air quality as we will keep the smelters in .mx and pollute there. The input constraints for USA manufacturing will be process water and reliable affordable power.

buescher 4y ago

Short answer: yes. Despite the doomsayers and the fact that you might not know anyone that works in manufacturing, the US is still a manufacturing powerhouse. https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scorecard-how-the-us-compares-to-18-other-nations/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scor... At 18% of global manufacturing output already, "a net gain of 67,000 workers above prepandemic levels" is not going to move the needle.

MisterMower 4y ago
It’s all final assembly automotive and aerospace. It’s not real manufacturing. All the real components from screws to relays to sheet metal and injection molded plastic parts are made somewhere other than the US. But yeah, if you export 300 787’s and A320’s each year, you’ll get the false impression the US is a manufacturing “powerhouse.”
- PenguinCoder 4y ago
  Gatekeep much?
  - MisterMower 4y ago
    Refute arguments much? Explain where I’m mistaken.
    - buescher 4y ago
      You're just wrong. Yes, US manufacturing is mostly high-value-add stuff. Because wages are high. Don't go into hock to start a toothpick factory in the USA. But go look up how many people are employed in manufacturing. 67,000 does not move the needle, though it's probably a lot as a percentage of new jobs. And automotive and aerospace are not the two biggest sectors of US manufacturing. (Boeing was the largest exporter for years though, probably still is). Look it up.
      - MisterMower 4y ago
        Is mating two fuselage sections made in Mexico and slapping on engines made in Malaysia manufacturing? Not in my book. That’s assembly, not manufacturing, regardless of how lucrative it may be.
        buescher 4y ago
        You're just wrong. US manufacturing is a lot more than final assembly of airplanes and automobiles. Aerospace and automotive aren't the top manufacturing sectors either. You're just wrong about that. You can look up that you're just wrong, but you're not bothering to. You can look up that final assembly is manufacturing - your book is just wrong. Why should I take "your book" seriously about anything?
        MisterMower 4y ago
        > US manufacturing is a lot more than final assembly of airplanes and automobiles. The truth of the matter is the bulk of the components that matter in those products are made somewhere other than the US. The hard work is done elsewhere. I just replaced a capacitor in my 2009 Maytag washing machine. Original capacitor was made in Mexico. The replacement was from Taiwan. The motor was made in China. Every product "made" in the US is a hodgepodge of imported components. > You can look up that final assembly is manufacturing I don't dispute that that's how it gets measured in official statistics, but I'm telling you it's a misrepresentation of what's actually occurring in industry. I work for an OEM aerospace manufacturer. Fuselages get made in Mexico. Wings get made in Japan. Engines get made in Europe and most parts for them are sourced from Russia, which is causing major shortages right now. Landing gear are forged in Brazil. We used to do it all here in the US, now we have a paint booth and a service center. But hey, final assembly is manufacturing! The US is an industrial powerhouse! Seriously, go look around your house. Show me a piece of furniture or appliance that was made in the US. You can't. You'd be lucky to have one that was assembled in the US. Shoot, your phone and computer probably weren't even made here. And if they were, again, the important parts that took all the work were probably made in Asia. Believe me, I wish I were wrong. I would love to be wrong. But you saying I'm wrong doesn't change reality. Stop believing statistics that are built on lies and start believing what you can clearly see before your very eyes.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
    That’s not gatekeeping, it’s disambiguating disingenuous statistic usage that implies a reality that that dos not exist.
mlsu 4y ago
This statistic is often trotted out. It's in dollars, which is very misleading and forms an incomplete picture of the ecosystem required to have true manufacturing ability. We do final assembly on an automobile and that gets registered as big $$$. But it's actually pretty easy to assemble a bunch of already-made parts. Much more difficult (and quite a lot of skill, built up over decades) to make the fuel pump from raw inputs! We lack completely the lower three-quarters of the pyramid. By this same logic, I did $500 in manufacturing this quarter because I assembled two Billy bookcase... nah. You don't know anyone because... we don't do a lot of manufacturing. The pre-made imported parts come into a handful of Toyota factories, and a whole bunch of very expensive SUVs come out. That's how you can get such a high $$$ number and not know anyone who works manufacturing.
- buescher 4y ago
  Sure, the whole supply chain is not in the US, and less of it is in the US than in past decades. That is not the point. You probably don't know anyone who works in manufacturing because you're in the demographic that reads hackernews. Using the automotive industry as an example is a big tell, you know, because a whole lot more than cars is manufactured in the US. Manufacturing is not a huge percentage of US employment, but it is much, much bigger than you think in raw numbers. Go look it up - 67,000 does not move the needle, though it's a big percentage of new jobs.

rdtwo 4y ago

No they are all going to areas with lax regulations.

api 4y ago

We live on one planet. Offshoring makes pollution a lot worse by not only moving it to where there's lax regulations but adding a whole bunch of additional energy cost to ship everything back here. Manufacturing where there are environmental regulations will push improvements in efficiency and waste management too, making the process more efficient in the long run.

kombucha13 4y ago
I dont disagree. I hope that adequate environmental regulations persist and those improvements in efficiency are realized.
wizofaus 4y ago
Depends what sort of pollution though - obviously if you're talking GHG emissions or many other small-molecule airborne pollutants (though not CO) it doesn't really matter where it's being emitted. But other sorts of pollution are much more local, and depending on the surrounding ecosystem (esp. waterways) and level of human habitation, it very much may well make sense to ensure it only occurs in areas where it will have less harmful effect.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Agree with your comments but ghg are not pollutants. They are a necessary part of an ecosystem that is being tipped too far in one direction
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Sounds a bit like the claim that micronutrients like zinc or cadmium can't qualify as toxins (despite having toxic qualities at high doses).
landemva 4y ago
About the only tax increase in USA I would support is an incoming environmental parity tariff. Make iStuff in China India Indonesia, though the incoming environmental tariff won't make it cheaper to pollute over there.

gedy 4y ago

Compared to rest of world? Yes

ch4s3 4y ago
Much of the rest of the world, yes. Compared to maybe Germany perhaps not as much.

daniel-cussen 4y ago

Cept in San Francisco, it swirls all the way from China and like 18% of the air pollution is from there. Like it was a suckafucking Japanese balloon bomb, the first intercontinental ranged weapon, only dent the Japanese made in the Manhattan Project was with that balloon. Very overpowered. It's not such a big planet.

twblalock 4y ago

It’s a fantasy to think we can have modern society without some form of environmental damage, and it’s also a fantasy to believe that factory jobs would be less damaging to the environment if they were located in other countries.

kombucha13 4y ago
Thats not what I was saying at all. I don't prefer the outsourcing of pollution.

outside1234 4y ago

It can't be worse than what was happening in China

mensetmanusman 4y ago

The world shares the air.

landemva 4y ago

No worries about air quality as we will keep the smelters in .mx and pollute there. The input constraints for USA manufacturing will be process water and reliable affordable power.