5 ms·

Coming to grips with the hidden influence of my own physicality has been a long term struggle for me. I realised over a long time that the fact that I was over

Coming to grips with the hidden influence of my own physicality has been a long term struggle for me. I realised over a long time that the fact that I was over six foot, male, white, bearded, broad and articulate meant that people inherently saw me as significantly more capable and tended to defer to me in a multitued of situations. This wasn't something that naturally gelled with the way I viewed my own competencies, but it's also really, really, really hard to get people to stop doing. Basically I have a significant 'self discrepancy gap'[0] between 'Own Actual' and 'Other Actual' that I constantly need to work at. Years of experience have taught me that these kind of gaps are pretty common in our industry. Yes it exists and think it's incredibly important for people to be aware of the power of their own physicality and not to abuse it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory

Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Own it and be thankful for the gifts you were given. I just wonder where we were today without those favorable attributes?
eigart 4y ago
I have those same physical traits, and this comment was helpful. This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role. I've been in so many dumb situations where someone more experienced or knowledgeable should have just told me I was doing something dumb. I am certain it is a net positive without trying to abuse it, but I've been thinking about it a lot since graduating. Everyone just treats me really well and places a lot of completely unwarranted trust in me.
- jan_Inkepa 4y ago
  >This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role. I've had a situation where I was asking a tall/attractive/charismatic acquaintance for technical advice and he stoped me and said something like "Why are you asking me for advice, you are way more experienced than I am". It's not that I shouldn't have talked with him about the technical matter, just that it was funny that I slid so naturally into the 'underling' role.
  - giardini 4y ago
    segue into something like "Well, I really need another look, another perspective, someone else's eyes on this b/c I think I'm missing something here, and I knew you'd be a good person to ask. I value your input." And a warning: in your situation you may not know if "you are way more experienced" than he is (he may just be stroking your ego to divert you). I've been in the same situation where time revealed the other guy was hoarding information to his advantage. I talked him into a bit of a reveal.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
  Does remote work in this case?
cryptoanon 4y ago
Short guys have it extremely tough. No marginalized group would ever recognize the struggle of short guys. It’s a tough life, extremely tough to match, tough to get people to pay attention professionally (at first), and just tough to not make people subconsciously infantilize you (“Aw cute!” “Impressive!”). I think the fact that most people would not seriously consider short guys as a marginalized group is proof itself of how marginalized it is. It’s hard not to be resigned to it. The biological marker that associates height with (physical and mental) fitness is just too strong. At the end of the day, we are all blessed to have an opportunity on this mortal realm and we all have to move on and live life, but sometimes I wish that more people had the same empathy that you’re showing.
- nathan_compton 4y ago
  I wouldn't say no one thinks about this issue, but I agree its typically dismissed as not serious. I think society thinks its important to socialize men in particular to "listen to authority without complaining" and this not-so-subtly tells certain men that if people don't treat you with respect then its your problem, not theirs. One thing I hate about the contemporary American political landscape is that its all in on the false dichotomy between personal responsibility and a well conceived society. Both things can coexist and in fact require one another. In fact, even though republicans love to talk about "personal responsibility," in a free market it is one of the least required things: the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury. Its really in a society where conventions like social welfware can be abused where people's personal responsibility, character and civic virtues really matter.
  - Thorentis 4y ago
    > the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury The market isnt some ethereal thing that magically coerces people to do things. The market is made up of other people, all of whom are also exercising their personal responsibility to look after their self interests. Game theory is the best way to look at this.
    - 4y ago
lettergram 4y ago
Working remote via video chat must the great equalizer haha… In reality I think people working remote haven’t worse off. While I think height does play a role, as a slightly below average height male I’ve personally never had an issue dominating / being defaulted to after brief interactions. While this trend / tendency does exist and imo is extremely strong genetically (looking to the “alpha”), a few words can shake that tendency in most rooms. I think being better groomed, fit, etc probably plays an overall larger role in terms of projecting competence. Being confident and speaking with conviction in statements likely outweighs everything
dazzawazza 4y ago
You pretty much describe me. Except I am very confident, have over 35 years of software engineering experience and am touching upon 50 years old. I recently joined a very large games company with a great reputation for diversity, inclusion and all that jazz. I was very happy. I've been successful in my career (I think) because I've (often) used my physical presence and all the advantages it gives me to give the floor to quieter voices, marginalized opinions and I really feel like my teams have been great teams because of that. When you enable great people, great things happen. I was looking forward to that just being the norm. However, at this company I found myself marginalized and discriminated against. I think because of my age, maybe because of my social class or maybe because of all the accidental advantages I have. I don't know and I don't really care. Anyway I left them. So it can swing both ways, just enjoy the ride. Good luck.
- causi 4y ago
  Yes, we're in an interesting time where the advantages you have in person are disadvantages on paper, in regards to hiring priorities, diversity drives, HR policy, etc.
  - sure_about_that 4y ago
- throwaway9980 4y ago
  I share a lot of these characteristics and while I don’t think I’ve actually been discriminated against, internally I feel like it’s inevitable and it makes me incredibly self conscious. More than anything I just want to be invisible. Remote work is pretty helpful in this regard.
0xRusty 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effec...
silveroriole 4y ago
Please use your powers to support and amplify others if you can. I have the opposite experience where I’ve dropped out of multiple lead roles because getting anyone to listen to me or acknowledge my decisions required a huge battle every single time. (Then I leave and they hire a consultant who looks like you to tell them the same things…!)
giardini 4y ago
One tall man's story: IIRC he had been a football player in college. He loved sales but found his size was a problem. He came up with a ruse: upon entering an office where he sensed the target customer was uneasy with the salesman's size, he "took a dive" - he literally fell down! Chaos would ensue as everyone rushed to help: gather his glasses, dust him off, retrieve pen and briefcase and such. He would apologize for his clumsiness and somehow the incident would always cement the bond between him and his customer.

Traubenfuchs 4y ago

Own it and be thankful for the gifts you were given. I just wonder where we were today without those favorable attributes?

eigart 4y ago

I have those same physical traits, and this comment was helpful. This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role. I've been in so many dumb situations where someone more experienced or knowledgeable should have just told me I was doing something dumb. I am certain it is a net positive without trying to abuse it, but I've been thinking about it a lot since graduating. Everyone just treats me really well and places a lot of completely unwarranted trust in me.

jan_Inkepa 4y ago
>This has been really frustrating as a junior developer, it's just impossible to get any critical feedback or have someone take a mentorship role. I've had a situation where I was asking a tall/attractive/charismatic acquaintance for technical advice and he stoped me and said something like "Why are you asking me for advice, you are way more experienced than I am". It's not that I shouldn't have talked with him about the technical matter, just that it was funny that I slid so naturally into the 'underling' role.
- giardini 4y ago
  segue into something like "Well, I really need another look, another perspective, someone else's eyes on this b/c I think I'm missing something here, and I knew you'd be a good person to ask. I value your input." And a warning: in your situation you may not know if "you are way more experienced" than he is (he may just be stroking your ego to divert you). I've been in the same situation where time revealed the other guy was hoarding information to his advantage. I talked him into a bit of a reveal.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
Does remote work in this case?

cryptoanon 4y ago

Short guys have it extremely tough. No marginalized group would ever recognize the struggle of short guys. It’s a tough life, extremely tough to match, tough to get people to pay attention professionally (at first), and just tough to not make people subconsciously infantilize you (“Aw cute!” “Impressive!”). I think the fact that most people would not seriously consider short guys as a marginalized group is proof itself of how marginalized it is. It’s hard not to be resigned to it. The biological marker that associates height with (physical and mental) fitness is just too strong. At the end of the day, we are all blessed to have an opportunity on this mortal realm and we all have to move on and live life, but sometimes I wish that more people had the same empathy that you’re showing.

nathan_compton 4y ago
I wouldn't say no one thinks about this issue, but I agree its typically dismissed as not serious. I think society thinks its important to socialize men in particular to "listen to authority without complaining" and this not-so-subtly tells certain men that if people don't treat you with respect then its your problem, not theirs. One thing I hate about the contemporary American political landscape is that its all in on the false dichotomy between personal responsibility and a well conceived society. Both things can coexist and in fact require one another. In fact, even though republicans love to talk about "personal responsibility," in a free market it is one of the least required things: the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury. Its really in a society where conventions like social welfware can be abused where people's personal responsibility, character and civic virtues really matter.
- Thorentis 4y ago
  > the market tells you what to do with yourself on pain of penury The market isnt some ethereal thing that magically coerces people to do things. The market is made up of other people, all of whom are also exercising their personal responsibility to look after their self interests. Game theory is the best way to look at this.
  - 4y ago

lettergram 4y ago

Working remote via video chat must the great equalizer haha… In reality I think people working remote haven’t worse off. While I think height does play a role, as a slightly below average height male I’ve personally never had an issue dominating / being defaulted to after brief interactions. While this trend / tendency does exist and imo is extremely strong genetically (looking to the “alpha”), a few words can shake that tendency in most rooms. I think being better groomed, fit, etc probably plays an overall larger role in terms of projecting competence. Being confident and speaking with conviction in statements likely outweighs everything

dazzawazza 4y ago

You pretty much describe me. Except I am very confident, have over 35 years of software engineering experience and am touching upon 50 years old. I recently joined a very large games company with a great reputation for diversity, inclusion and all that jazz. I was very happy. I've been successful in my career (I think) because I've (often) used my physical presence and all the advantages it gives me to give the floor to quieter voices, marginalized opinions and I really feel like my teams have been great teams because of that. When you enable great people, great things happen. I was looking forward to that just being the norm. However, at this company I found myself marginalized and discriminated against. I think because of my age, maybe because of my social class or maybe because of all the accidental advantages I have. I don't know and I don't really care. Anyway I left them. So it can swing both ways, just enjoy the ride. Good luck.

causi 4y ago
Yes, we're in an interesting time where the advantages you have in person are disadvantages on paper, in regards to hiring priorities, diversity drives, HR policy, etc.
- sure_about_that 4y ago
throwaway9980 4y ago
I share a lot of these characteristics and while I don’t think I’ve actually been discriminated against, internally I feel like it’s inevitable and it makes me incredibly self conscious. More than anything I just want to be invisible. Remote work is pretty helpful in this regard.

0xRusty 4y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effec...

silveroriole 4y ago

Please use your powers to support and amplify others if you can. I have the opposite experience where I’ve dropped out of multiple lead roles because getting anyone to listen to me or acknowledge my decisions required a huge battle every single time. (Then I leave and they hire a consultant who looks like you to tell them the same things…!)

giardini 4y ago

One tall man's story: IIRC he had been a football player in college. He loved sales but found his size was a problem. He came up with a ruse: upon entering an office where he sensed the target customer was uneasy with the salesman's size, he "took a dive" - he literally fell down! Chaos would ensue as everyone rushed to help: gather his glasses, dust him off, retrieve pen and briefcase and such. He would apologize for his clumsiness and somehow the incident would always cement the bond between him and his customer.