4 ms·

Maybe I'm uncommon in this aspect, but I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. I'm not fo

by eloff 4y ago

Maybe I'm uncommon in this aspect, but I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. I'm not for any particular party. I don't care about sports. I'm Canadian, but don't live there and don't feel like I belong there either. I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade, but I don't think those are "real" groups with many ideas in common. Maybe I just am not aware of which ideas I get from those groups.

tmnvix 4y ago
I think this is not at all uncommon. I am largely in the same boat and assumed this was the 'de facto norm' amongst my peers as a teen (90s NZ), but it's interesting to consider that groups are often defined by what they are not.
sooyoo 4y ago
Those with most priviledge are usually the least aware of it. I've come to realize that "white male software engineer" is one of the groups with the highest ratio of priviledge versus priviledge awareness. (Disclosure: I belong to that group as well.)
- astrange 4y ago
  In Canada? Software engineers are traditionally not well paid there. Plus I assume gangs of other kinds of engineers are always beating you up for calling yourself an engineer without an iron ring.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  This discussion is about ideas (or opinions), not privileges.
  - mattsahr 4y ago
    You're right, it's about ideas, but the original article handles the interesting case where we fail to form or handle our ideas using "reason." > The power of reasons is an illusion. The belief will not change when the reasons are defeated. So privilege plays an interesting role. Unaware privilege - failing to see ones own circumstances, failing to assess how we fit in the world - is almost the same thing as non-reason. I suppose there could be a class of people who are like, "I am totally privileged, and somehow I delude myself and don't notice, but in every OTHER way I am totally reasonable." That could be a subgroup. But probably not a big one?
- eloff 4y ago
  Why would you bring privilege into an unrelated discussion? Also you're assuming a lot about my background that would surprise you. I wasn't born a software engineer. I chose the field deliberately as the best way to make money, and then fell in love with it after the fact. I'm self taught, a child of immigrants. I had a typical middle class childhood.
  - sooyoo 4y ago
    This part: > I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. And this part: > I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade, So, you are belonging to three priviledged groups. Male, Caucasian, software engineer. It's easy to overlook this group membership, since it silently represents priviledge. Those outside these groups definitely notice that they are not in them. Ask a discriminated woman, a discriminated non-white, or an amazon warehouse worker. That's why I pointed out that it's easy to forget group membership that confers priviledge. > Also you're assuming a lot about my background No, I went by exactly the information you conveyed yourself. See above.
jiggawatts 4y ago
Same here. Something I always find hilarious is conversations with people who's opinions are very polarised due to their membership in groups. For example, I have a friends that are variously: a Christian priest, libertarian, anti-vaxxers, and Trump supporters. Invariably, in every discussion, they'll trot out this sentence: "You <opponent group name> people always think <notion>". For example: "You Liberal party voters always support lowering taxes" or somesuch sentence. I point out that I didn't vote for the Liberal party. "The Labour party voters are the same!" I point out I didn't vote for Labour either in the most recent election either. "Err..." -- at this point their brain locks up, because they're expecting a tribe-vs-tribe fight and they have no idea what to do when they discover I don't actually belong to their "enemy tribe".
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  You're lucky to have avoided encounters with the more advanced tribalists then. Most of the more engaged members of these groups will already have a prepared retort that insinuates that anyone not an active member of $THEIR_TRIBE is by necessity part of $OTHER_TRIBE.
watwut 4y ago
The exact same thingbhappens with groups like programming team or sports club.
marcosdumay 4y ago
> I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. Oh, an agnostic. There is something to be said about groups of people that hold similar ideas because their similar way of thinking lead them to similar conclusions. It's a very important exception to the OP's description, where the group came first, and may even be the most common kind. (Of course, the question to answer is why do those people think in similar ways.) > part of the group of software engineers by trade I'd bet that one lead you into adopting some values.
- eloff 4y ago
  I probably inherited some values from the group of software engineers, but it's not a well defined group. Can you point to any values we might have in common? I would say a love of logic and the scientific method, but even that isn't universal. I don't find software engineers much more logical than other people of comparable intelligence.
  - marcosdumay 4y ago
    Yep, some adoration of logic and control, even if not applied. But those were probably there first. You probably also have some abhorrence towards formal chaos (the ones that causes unpredictability; many are not even able to accept it exists) and want to improve every system (simple or not) you see. On the more traditionally politics kinds of thing, you probably value freedom of expression to a very high amount, like other highly educated groups, but also probably value personal freedom and personal initiative. Those often come in an intensity that leads to some bullshit levels of belief in self-determination (like in not believing you share group values) and personal responsibility; but beliefs change faster than values, and many people tame those down with time.
lazide 4y ago
That just means you’re being willfully blind to the groups, not that you aren’t a member. Even saying you’re !group makes you explicitly a member of the !group group!

by eloff 4y ago

tmnvix 4y ago

I think this is not at all uncommon. I am largely in the same boat and assumed this was the 'de facto norm' amongst my peers as a teen (90s NZ), but it's interesting to consider that groups are often defined by what they are not.

sooyoo 4y ago

Those with most priviledge are usually the least aware of it. I've come to realize that "white male software engineer" is one of the groups with the highest ratio of priviledge versus priviledge awareness. (Disclosure: I belong to that group as well.)

astrange 4y ago
In Canada? Software engineers are traditionally not well paid there. Plus I assume gangs of other kinds of engineers are always beating you up for calling yourself an engineer without an iron ring.
xboxnolifes 4y ago
This discussion is about ideas (or opinions), not privileges.
- mattsahr 4y ago
  You're right, it's about ideas, but the original article handles the interesting case where we fail to form or handle our ideas using "reason." > The power of reasons is an illusion. The belief will not change when the reasons are defeated. So privilege plays an interesting role. Unaware privilege - failing to see ones own circumstances, failing to assess how we fit in the world - is almost the same thing as non-reason. I suppose there could be a class of people who are like, "I am totally privileged, and somehow I delude myself and don't notice, but in every OTHER way I am totally reasonable." That could be a subgroup. But probably not a big one?
eloff 4y ago
Why would you bring privilege into an unrelated discussion? Also you're assuming a lot about my background that would surprise you. I wasn't born a software engineer. I chose the field deliberately as the best way to make money, and then fell in love with it after the fact. I'm self taught, a child of immigrants. I had a typical middle class childhood.
- sooyoo 4y ago
  This part: > I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. And this part: > I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade, So, you are belonging to three priviledged groups. Male, Caucasian, software engineer. It's easy to overlook this group membership, since it silently represents priviledge. Those outside these groups definitely notice that they are not in them. Ask a discriminated woman, a discriminated non-white, or an amazon warehouse worker. That's why I pointed out that it's easy to forget group membership that confers priviledge. > Also you're assuming a lot about my background No, I went by exactly the information you conveyed yourself. See above.

jiggawatts 4y ago

Same here. Something I always find hilarious is conversations with people who's opinions are very polarised due to their membership in groups. For example, I have a friends that are variously: a Christian priest, libertarian, anti-vaxxers, and Trump supporters. Invariably, in every discussion, they'll trot out this sentence: "You <opponent group name> people always think <notion>". For example: "You Liberal party voters always support lowering taxes" or somesuch sentence. I point out that I didn't vote for the Liberal party. "The Labour party voters are the same!" I point out I didn't vote for Labour either in the most recent election either. "Err..." -- at this point their brain locks up, because they're expecting a tribe-vs-tribe fight and they have no idea what to do when they discover I don't actually belong to their "enemy tribe".

YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
You're lucky to have avoided encounters with the more advanced tribalists then. Most of the more engaged members of these groups will already have a prepared retort that insinuates that anyone not an active member of $THEIR_TRIBE is by necessity part of $OTHER_TRIBE.

watwut 4y ago

The exact same thingbhappens with groups like programming team or sports club.

marcosdumay 4y ago

> I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. Oh, an agnostic. There is something to be said about groups of people that hold similar ideas because their similar way of thinking lead them to similar conclusions. It's a very important exception to the OP's description, where the group came first, and may even be the most common kind. (Of course, the question to answer is why do those people think in similar ways.) > part of the group of software engineers by trade I'd bet that one lead you into adopting some values.

eloff 4y ago
I probably inherited some values from the group of software engineers, but it's not a well defined group. Can you point to any values we might have in common? I would say a love of logic and the scientific method, but even that isn't universal. I don't find software engineers much more logical than other people of comparable intelligence.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Yep, some adoration of logic and control, even if not applied. But those were probably there first. You probably also have some abhorrence towards formal chaos (the ones that causes unpredictability; many are not even able to accept it exists) and want to improve every system (simple or not) you see. On the more traditionally politics kinds of thing, you probably value freedom of expression to a very high amount, like other highly educated groups, but also probably value personal freedom and personal initiative. Those often come in an intensity that leads to some bullshit levels of belief in self-determination (like in not believing you share group values) and personal responsibility; but beliefs change faster than values, and many people tame those down with time.

lazide 4y ago

That just means you’re being willfully blind to the groups, not that you aren’t a member. Even saying you’re !group makes you explicitly a member of the !group group!