5 ms·

When people vote for leaders that sell hope, good times are ahead but when they vote based on fear bad times are almost certain down the road. Regardless of pol

by _8j50 4y ago

When people vote for leaders that sell hope, good times are ahead but when they vote based on fear bad times are almost certain down the road. Regardless of politics that is.

midoridensha 4y ago
Americans voted for Obama because of hope; did good times come about? I don't think so. Then Americans voted for Trump because of fear; did bad times come about? Definitely. You might be onto something with the fear part, but I don't think the hope part really works. People buying into hope can easily just be misguided hope and not based on reality. People buying into fear means things really have gone bad.
- thelock85 4y ago
  > I don’t think the hope part really works. What other emotion than hope could have as much mass appeal as fear?
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    How about not relying on emotion, and using logic and reason instead? Of course, that won't win votes, which is why human society is doomed.
- mrhands556 4y ago
  Before covid the trump presidency had good times to those not paying attention to news articles specifically about trump or late night talk shows.
  - olliej 4y ago
    For example…? Because I see children in cages, wanton grift, federal aid based on favors and similar to trump personally.
    - GuardianCaveman 4y ago
      keyword "trump presidency had good times" so yeah him and his family and inner circle had GREAT times.
    - xkbarkar 4y ago
      If you look at every single precidency pretty awful things were done. Fake child immunization setup to get Usama during Obama administration. Has caused an unveleivable amount of harm to children. Not in cages, just no linger vaccinated for fear of US pursuit. Yell bad man Trump all you want. He was never the problem, he was a symptom of what is really going on. Same with Swedish and now Italian elections. Get all the social media upvotes for adhering to the woke and bow to twitter as much as you want. This is what is actually going on. I blame super shitty journalism also for this. Thats just a personal irk I have for how oblivious and grossly overconfident and incompetent the media actually is
      - notafraudster 4y ago
        I think most people are going to find a moral equivalence drawn between "locked up children in cages" and "tricked Osama Bin Laden's relatives into taking a blood test" pretty hollow, even if an argument can be made that the latter led to a complex downstream set of externalities.
        dapf 4y ago
        The "locking down children in cages" was already being done during the Obama period.
        _8j50 4y ago
        Separating them from their mothers? Nope
        midoridensha 4y ago
        >I think most people are going to find a moral equivalence drawn between "locked up children in cages" and "tricked Osama Bin Laden's relatives into taking a blood test" pretty hollow He's not talking about OBL's blood relatives, he's talking about all the children in Pakistan who aren't vaccinated now because the US's actions caused them to distrust vaccines and those who provide them.
  - cromwellian 4y ago
    Those “good times” were large an extension of Obama’s term. If you look at the GDP and job numbers of this period and fit a regression line, Trump did not meaningfully alter the slope of the curve, which means he largely inherited a growing economy and road the coattails.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    I disagree. Riots and protests every few months, half the country losing its shit. Everyday some messed up thing happens, it was like watching a house burn across the street. I mean, I think it is widely known that policies and actions on one term will usually show fruit in the next term. People start spending and investing money slowly once they see things looking up. Look at bush relaxing as many restrictions as he could and getting rid of taxes as much as he could before the 08 crash. Your second term is when the product of your policies are seen. Their first year is spent getting campain promises done as much as possible and getting used to the job (like any employee it takes 6mo-year to be productivr) and 4th year is election year. So it is usually the second and third year after they appointed all the important officials they do anything which means when things take effect is months or a 1yr+ down the road and then you see whatever metric's graph either start going down or up but it is rare for it to peak immediately, could happen but you really can't take credit for economic stuff at least in the first 2 yrs. Also, keep in mind that americans take away the president's party's majority in congress mid way in the term usually so republican or democrat it is difficult to get things done in their 3rd and 4th year. So their efforts peak at the end of 2nd year and first half of 3rd year and the fruits of those efforts are seen down the road in their last year or the year or two after their last term.
- cromwellian 4y ago
  Obama inherited an economy in free fall. By the time he left, the deficit had been cut in half (thanks to sequester), we had more quarters of 3%, 4%, even 5% GDP growth not since the 90s. Unemployment fell from 10% to 4.7%. Home prices and the stock market appreciated considerably. Trump largely inherited a good economy from Obama, passed a reckless tax cut, and then failed to beat Obama’s final 3 years in terms of gdp growth or job growth. Those tax cuts blew a hole in the deficit before COVID and triggered a plethora of stock buyback activity depleting corporate cash reserves just in time for the pandemic leaving them with nothing to fall back on, and needing quicker and bigger bailouts that might have been necessary if they had bigger nest eggs. (Airlines especially) Obama had international inspectors in Iran’s nuke plants, Trump pulled the US out and now the situation is far worse with respect to th nuke profliferation issue. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/ https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    It always amazing how Americans think presidents have much of an impact on things like economics and housing markets. It the same mistake people make everywhere, correlation is not causation. The Great Depression was not Hoovers fault. Hitler was not some amazing economic genius its just that he got to power after the worst of the recession was over. Trump certainty did some thing bad things in terms of trade, but that likely doesn't explain most of the numbers. > Obama had international inspectors in Iran’s nuke plants, Trump pulled the US out and now the situation is far worse with respect to th nuke profliferation issue. That actually is something the president has much influence on.
    - _8j50 4y ago
      They have some influence. The fed chief is nominated by them. Laws they support get priority. Their policies can have effects on consumer confidence and economic activity, I mean americans belive the president is powerful so true or not their economic behavior is affected, and that isn't just consumers but investors as well. Let's say biden threatened nuke war against russia, that will crash stocks or mention tariffs on China which will affect some stocks more than others. CEOs also use what they say as an excuse to do things.
- krapp 4y ago
  Hope and fear are opposite sides of the same coin. Trump's slogan "Make America Great Again" was explicitly hopeful, but the hope of populism always rests on a fear of (and disgust for) modernity and its implied future. Obama's message of hope was also predicated on the ideal of moving American culture away from fear, in that case fear of the persistence of America's past. Fear of progress vs. fear of regress. People buying into hope are by definition buying into the mitigation of fear.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Sure did. The economy bush screwed up recovered, a lot of stimulus packages helped many americans. Obamacare passed, bin laden getting killed in '11 was good too. Of course I said Obama in 08 for a reason, Obama in '12 not so much and of course '16 was a shitshow.
AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat W. Churchill Sometimes fear is the right thing to sell.
- vmilner 4y ago
  He lost the next election by a landslide, however...
  - AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
    He won the war, but lost the election... What an irony!
- _8j50 4y ago
  If it inspires hope, sure. That was hope of victory right there not fear of doom. Why does no one seem to read what I am saying? I am talking about how viters feel not what politicians say. "Make america great again" sounds hopeful for example but it means you are afraid america will go to shit otherwise. In other words, if not voting for your guy feels like doom ("if I don't vote for biden the world ends" to be non-partisan) bad times ahead.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ramblerman 4y ago
What a simplistic statement. Not only does it it denigrate any concern Italians have about their economy and their future. It carries the same hubris as politicians that say they are "on the right side of history". Bernie Maddof sold hope, as do most holistic healers, it's not a great measure to go by.
- _8j50 4y ago
  You are talking about the people who are voted in, I am talking about the mindset of the voters. Optimism indicates more economic activity and less social unrest and instability.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
fdewrewrewf 4y ago
That's an overly-simplistic breakdown. Almost all campaigns I've seen, across political stripes, include an element of "don't let the other guys win!". After all, it was Hillary's main selling point. Also, even those candidates widely regarded as "fearful" actually had campaigns based on hope, of bringing in a better world if only certain problems could be fixed. I'll leave you to fill in the obvious blanks.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Again, you also are talking about candidates. It doesn't matter what the candidates say, if the people are voting because they are afraid that reflects on upcoming economic health and legislative activity (while democracy works that is). In America, Obama in 08 was the last time most voters votes out of hope instead of fear. Whether you fear biden or trup, fear is fear. Bad shit ahead, buckle in haha.

by _8j50 4y ago

When people vote for leaders that sell hope, good times are ahead but when they vote based on fear bad times are almost certain down the road. Regardless of politics that is.

midoridensha 4y ago

Americans voted for Obama because of hope; did good times come about? I don't think so. Then Americans voted for Trump because of fear; did bad times come about? Definitely. You might be onto something with the fear part, but I don't think the hope part really works. People buying into hope can easily just be misguided hope and not based on reality. People buying into fear means things really have gone bad.

thelock85 4y ago
> I don’t think the hope part really works. What other emotion than hope could have as much mass appeal as fear?
- midoridensha 4y ago
  How about not relying on emotion, and using logic and reason instead? Of course, that won't win votes, which is why human society is doomed.
mrhands556 4y ago
Before covid the trump presidency had good times to those not paying attention to news articles specifically about trump or late night talk shows.
- olliej 4y ago
  For example…? Because I see children in cages, wanton grift, federal aid based on favors and similar to trump personally.
  - GuardianCaveman 4y ago
    keyword "trump presidency had good times" so yeah him and his family and inner circle had GREAT times.
  - xkbarkar 4y ago
    If you look at every single precidency pretty awful things were done. Fake child immunization setup to get Usama during Obama administration. Has caused an unveleivable amount of harm to children. Not in cages, just no linger vaccinated for fear of US pursuit. Yell bad man Trump all you want. He was never the problem, he was a symptom of what is really going on. Same with Swedish and now Italian elections. Get all the social media upvotes for adhering to the woke and bow to twitter as much as you want. This is what is actually going on. I blame super shitty journalism also for this. Thats just a personal irk I have for how oblivious and grossly overconfident and incompetent the media actually is
    - notafraudster 4y ago
      I think most people are going to find a moral equivalence drawn between "locked up children in cages" and "tricked Osama Bin Laden's relatives into taking a blood test" pretty hollow, even if an argument can be made that the latter led to a complex downstream set of externalities.
      - dapf 4y ago
        The "locking down children in cages" was already being done during the Obama period.
        _8j50 4y ago
        Separating them from their mothers? Nope
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        >I think most people are going to find a moral equivalence drawn between "locked up children in cages" and "tricked Osama Bin Laden's relatives into taking a blood test" pretty hollow He's not talking about OBL's blood relatives, he's talking about all the children in Pakistan who aren't vaccinated now because the US's actions caused them to distrust vaccines and those who provide them.
- cromwellian 4y ago
  Those “good times” were large an extension of Obama’s term. If you look at the GDP and job numbers of this period and fit a regression line, Trump did not meaningfully alter the slope of the curve, which means he largely inherited a growing economy and road the coattails.
- _8j50 4y ago
  I disagree. Riots and protests every few months, half the country losing its shit. Everyday some messed up thing happens, it was like watching a house burn across the street. I mean, I think it is widely known that policies and actions on one term will usually show fruit in the next term. People start spending and investing money slowly once they see things looking up. Look at bush relaxing as many restrictions as he could and getting rid of taxes as much as he could before the 08 crash. Your second term is when the product of your policies are seen. Their first year is spent getting campain promises done as much as possible and getting used to the job (like any employee it takes 6mo-year to be productivr) and 4th year is election year. So it is usually the second and third year after they appointed all the important officials they do anything which means when things take effect is months or a 1yr+ down the road and then you see whatever metric's graph either start going down or up but it is rare for it to peak immediately, could happen but you really can't take credit for economic stuff at least in the first 2 yrs. Also, keep in mind that americans take away the president's party's majority in congress mid way in the term usually so republican or democrat it is difficult to get things done in their 3rd and 4th year. So their efforts peak at the end of 2nd year and first half of 3rd year and the fruits of those efforts are seen down the road in their last year or the year or two after their last term.
cromwellian 4y ago
Obama inherited an economy in free fall. By the time he left, the deficit had been cut in half (thanks to sequester), we had more quarters of 3%, 4%, even 5% GDP growth not since the 90s. Unemployment fell from 10% to 4.7%. Home prices and the stock market appreciated considerably. Trump largely inherited a good economy from Obama, passed a reckless tax cut, and then failed to beat Obama’s final 3 years in terms of gdp growth or job growth. Those tax cuts blew a hole in the deficit before COVID and triggered a plethora of stock buyback activity depleting corporate cash reserves just in time for the pandemic leaving them with nothing to fall back on, and needing quicker and bigger bailouts that might have been necessary if they had bigger nest eggs. (Airlines especially) Obama had international inspectors in Iran’s nuke plants, Trump pulled the US out and now the situation is far worse with respect to th nuke profliferation issue. https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/ https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/
- panick21_ 4y ago
  It always amazing how Americans think presidents have much of an impact on things like economics and housing markets. It the same mistake people make everywhere, correlation is not causation. The Great Depression was not Hoovers fault. Hitler was not some amazing economic genius its just that he got to power after the worst of the recession was over. Trump certainty did some thing bad things in terms of trade, but that likely doesn't explain most of the numbers. > Obama had international inspectors in Iran’s nuke plants, Trump pulled the US out and now the situation is far worse with respect to th nuke profliferation issue. That actually is something the president has much influence on.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    They have some influence. The fed chief is nominated by them. Laws they support get priority. Their policies can have effects on consumer confidence and economic activity, I mean americans belive the president is powerful so true or not their economic behavior is affected, and that isn't just consumers but investors as well. Let's say biden threatened nuke war against russia, that will crash stocks or mention tariffs on China which will affect some stocks more than others. CEOs also use what they say as an excuse to do things.
krapp 4y ago
Hope and fear are opposite sides of the same coin. Trump's slogan "Make America Great Again" was explicitly hopeful, but the hope of populism always rests on a fear of (and disgust for) modernity and its implied future. Obama's message of hope was also predicated on the ideal of moving American culture away from fear, in that case fear of the persistence of America's past. Fear of progress vs. fear of regress. People buying into hope are by definition buying into the mitigation of fear.
_8j50 4y ago
Sure did. The economy bush screwed up recovered, a lot of stimulus packages helped many americans. Obamacare passed, bin laden getting killed in '11 was good too. Of course I said Obama in 08 for a reason, Obama in '12 not so much and of course '16 was a shitshow.

AlexTWithBeard 4y ago

I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat W. Churchill Sometimes fear is the right thing to sell.

vmilner 4y ago
He lost the next election by a landslide, however...
- AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
  He won the war, but lost the election... What an irony!
_8j50 4y ago
If it inspires hope, sure. That was hope of victory right there not fear of doom. Why does no one seem to read what I am saying? I am talking about how viters feel not what politicians say. "Make america great again" sounds hopeful for example but it means you are afraid america will go to shit otherwise. In other words, if not voting for your guy feels like doom ("if I don't vote for biden the world ends" to be non-partisan) bad times ahead.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ramblerman 4y ago

What a simplistic statement. Not only does it it denigrate any concern Italians have about their economy and their future. It carries the same hubris as politicians that say they are "on the right side of history". Bernie Maddof sold hope, as do most holistic healers, it's not a great measure to go by.

_8j50 4y ago
You are talking about the people who are voted in, I am talking about the mindset of the voters. Optimism indicates more economic activity and less social unrest and instability.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

fdewrewrewf 4y ago

That's an overly-simplistic breakdown. Almost all campaigns I've seen, across political stripes, include an element of "don't let the other guys win!". After all, it was Hillary's main selling point. Also, even those candidates widely regarded as "fearful" actually had campaigns based on hope, of bringing in a better world if only certain problems could be fixed. I'll leave you to fill in the obvious blanks.

_8j50 4y ago
Again, you also are talking about candidates. It doesn't matter what the candidates say, if the people are voting because they are afraid that reflects on upcoming economic health and legislative activity (while democracy works that is). In America, Obama in 08 was the last time most voters votes out of hope instead of fear. Whether you fear biden or trup, fear is fear. Bad shit ahead, buckle in haha.