7 ms·

This is the thing I don’t get. Yes, those animals are exploited for food, but it’s not like you need to eat animals to live. You could very well thrive on plant

by 9dev 4y ago

This is the thing I don’t get. Yes, those animals are exploited for food, but it’s not like you need to eat animals to live. You could very well thrive on plants exclusively, but you choose not to. Why, and I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity, do sentient beings have to die for your diet?

kcplate 4y ago
The brutally honest answer is… they taste good and I don’t want to eat plants exclusively because I don’t have to as an omnivore. As for sentience, it does not factor into my equation, in the same way a lion isn’t concerned about the impala’s feelings. If plants are shown to have sentience one day, would you allow yourself to starve to death out of concern?
- 9dev 4y ago
  No. If I’m starving, I’m going to take a puppy, rip it’s heart out, and eat it raw. But… I’m not starving. None of us is. So to me, this all comes down to having a conscience, and being considerate. You answered the question quite well — you simply care more about yourself than anyone else. If that’s okay for you, carry on.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    Yes, I certainly care for myself more than chickens, deers, cows, pigs, ducks, fish, and many other animals that have found their way to my plate over the years. I don’t humanize them, because they are not humans, their food. You referred to them as “anyone”, which indicates you blur that line. One difference between us…I would never pass judgement on someone who chooses to eat a plant based diet. However, being well experienced with vegans I have come to expect that moralistic evangelical aspect of folks that choose that lifestyle.
    - 9dev 4y ago
      It’s not about humanising, it’s about recognising other sentient beings as having a subjective existence, thus, being someone. I don’t pass judgement on you, by the way. Choosing not to eat me is, for most, a different mindset, not just a dietary change. I guess this is something everyone has to learn for themselves, and this discussion won’t really lead anywhere, so let’s cut it at this point.
danaris 4y ago
> You could very well thrive on plants exclusively Survive, yes. Thrive? No, not really. And it's absolutely not the case that everyone can even survive on a pure vegetarian/vegan diet. Some people have medical conditions that make it impossible. Many, many, many people do not have the money to buy the unquestionably much more expensive food required to maintain a nutritious vegetarian or vegan diet. The ability to do so is a privilege of the abled and well-off.
- 9dev 4y ago
  You’d be surprised to learn that several cultures across the world do eat no or almost no meat. Meat consumption increases with wealth, so reality is contrary to what you’re hinting at: eating meat is a privilege of the well-off.
  - danaris 4y ago
    Y'know, oddly enough, both of these things can be true at the same time, for different regions and types of poverty. The point is, universal vegetarianism is not practical, either voluntary or enforced.
    - 9dev 4y ago
      I don’t see how that relates to my point. Universal vegetarism is practiced already, without issues, since hundreds of years, by a rather large populace. Why wouldn’t it be practical?
      - danaris 4y ago
        "Universal," as in, "practiced by everyone". (I'm not sure how else one could define that...?)
nmz 4y ago
I'm not OP but I'll reply, because I'm also a meat eater. > animals are exploited for food Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food. > it's not like like you need to eat animals to live. You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live. > You could very well thrive on plants exclusively Thrive is a strong word. energy wise, meat is cheap-ish and more filling. The word exclusively here is paramount, because meat consumption has been subsiding somewhat, but this is not enough, for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming. > I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity I don't believe you here, unless you were born in a vegetarian cult of some sort, you know why people eat meat. Its the natural thing to do, I'm somewhat a conservative, mostly because whenever an unnatural solution is developed, there are always unseen consequences. prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then. > do sentient beings have to die for your diet? It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst). With all that said, I have reduced my meat consumption and have been trying to have an all veggie day, I've been unsuccessful, mostly because the only dish I can make is fried food, and fried food is super unhealthy to me.
- 9dev 4y ago
  > Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food. I take it you would take offence if I ate your kids, though? > You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live. This is mostly a myth, by the way. Reading up on nutrients and where to get them can get you a long way. You don’t need „animals“, you need a mix of different nutrients and you can absolutely get those from a variety of sources. Meat contains plenty easy energy, but just because it’s easy doesn’t mean that’s the only way. > for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming. Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? The protagonist learns the cheap food their whole society is nurtured with is actually made from deceased people. They are horrified by it, and obviously wouldn’t consider eating it again. Please don’t immediately dismiss this: It really feels similar to really understand what it means that your food had dreams, hopes, and feelings. This isn’t just some fancy lifestyle change, but a shift in moral values. > prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then. I mean, it’s not like a vegetarian diet is new or something? There are many cultures that did, and continue to, eat pretty much exclusively vegetarian. Just ask a Hindu or a Buddhist… > It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst). They don’t have a central nervous system however, or pain receptors, or even a brain, for what it’s worth. So, by all practical means, they don’t feel pain, or experience being alive as we do. You know, I’m well aware I need carbon from somewhere, something has to die so I can live. But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reduce suffering of others just for my pleasure. Maybe enjoying cooking really helps, though. I can conjure up a lot of tasty stuff that just works well without meat, so it’s not like I’d miss anything.
ryukoposting 4y ago
> Why, and I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity, do sentient beings have to die for your diet? Because they taste good.
- api 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Zone) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Z...

by 9dev 4y ago

kcplate 4y ago

The brutally honest answer is… they taste good and I don’t want to eat plants exclusively because I don’t have to as an omnivore. As for sentience, it does not factor into my equation, in the same way a lion isn’t concerned about the impala’s feelings. If plants are shown to have sentience one day, would you allow yourself to starve to death out of concern?

9dev 4y ago
No. If I’m starving, I’m going to take a puppy, rip it’s heart out, and eat it raw. But… I’m not starving. None of us is. So to me, this all comes down to having a conscience, and being considerate. You answered the question quite well — you simply care more about yourself than anyone else. If that’s okay for you, carry on.
- kcplate 4y ago
  Yes, I certainly care for myself more than chickens, deers, cows, pigs, ducks, fish, and many other animals that have found their way to my plate over the years. I don’t humanize them, because they are not humans, their food. You referred to them as “anyone”, which indicates you blur that line. One difference between us…I would never pass judgement on someone who chooses to eat a plant based diet. However, being well experienced with vegans I have come to expect that moralistic evangelical aspect of folks that choose that lifestyle.
  - 9dev 4y ago
    It’s not about humanising, it’s about recognising other sentient beings as having a subjective existence, thus, being someone. I don’t pass judgement on you, by the way. Choosing not to eat me is, for most, a different mindset, not just a dietary change. I guess this is something everyone has to learn for themselves, and this discussion won’t really lead anywhere, so let’s cut it at this point.

danaris 4y ago

> You could very well thrive on plants exclusively Survive, yes. Thrive? No, not really. And it's absolutely not the case that everyone can even survive on a pure vegetarian/vegan diet. Some people have medical conditions that make it impossible. Many, many, many people do not have the money to buy the unquestionably much more expensive food required to maintain a nutritious vegetarian or vegan diet. The ability to do so is a privilege of the abled and well-off.

9dev 4y ago
You’d be surprised to learn that several cultures across the world do eat no or almost no meat. Meat consumption increases with wealth, so reality is contrary to what you’re hinting at: eating meat is a privilege of the well-off.
- danaris 4y ago
  Y'know, oddly enough, both of these things can be true at the same time, for different regions and types of poverty. The point is, universal vegetarianism is not practical, either voluntary or enforced.
  - 9dev 4y ago
    I don’t see how that relates to my point. Universal vegetarism is practiced already, without issues, since hundreds of years, by a rather large populace. Why wouldn’t it be practical?
    - danaris 4y ago
      "Universal," as in, "practiced by everyone". (I'm not sure how else one could define that...?)

nmz 4y ago

I'm not OP but I'll reply, because I'm also a meat eater. > animals are exploited for food Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food. > it's not like like you need to eat animals to live. You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live. > You could very well thrive on plants exclusively Thrive is a strong word. energy wise, meat is cheap-ish and more filling. The word exclusively here is paramount, because meat consumption has been subsiding somewhat, but this is not enough, for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming. > I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity I don't believe you here, unless you were born in a vegetarian cult of some sort, you know why people eat meat. Its the natural thing to do, I'm somewhat a conservative, mostly because whenever an unnatural solution is developed, there are always unseen consequences. prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then. > do sentient beings have to die for your diet? It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst). With all that said, I have reduced my meat consumption and have been trying to have an all veggie day, I've been unsuccessful, mostly because the only dish I can make is fried food, and fried food is super unhealthy to me.

9dev 4y ago
> Animals are not exploited for food, animals are food, you are also food. I take it you would take offence if I ate your kids, though? > You do need to eat animals to live. You can live without, but you have to take supplements. because again, you need to eat animals to live. This is mostly a myth, by the way. Reading up on nutrients and where to get them can get you a long way. You don’t need „animals“, you need a mix of different nutrients and you can absolutely get those from a variety of sources. Meat contains plenty easy energy, but just because it’s easy doesn’t mean that’s the only way. > for vegetarians/vegans you are either in, or you are morally bankrupt. It reminds me a lot of religions/cults shaming. Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? The protagonist learns the cheap food their whole society is nurtured with is actually made from deceased people. They are horrified by it, and obviously wouldn’t consider eating it again. Please don’t immediately dismiss this: It really feels similar to really understand what it means that your food had dreams, hopes, and feelings. This isn’t just some fancy lifestyle change, but a shift in moral values. > prove to me in 500 years that humans don't need to eat meat and I'll believe you, we'll both be dead. but I'll believe you then. I mean, it’s not like a vegetarian diet is new or something? There are many cultures that did, and continue to, eat pretty much exclusively vegetarian. Just ask a Hindu or a Buddhist… > It's not like plants are not completely unsentient either, they have defenses (an aspect of organisms that don't want to die), they do chase water (thirst). They don’t have a central nervous system however, or pain receptors, or even a brain, for what it’s worth. So, by all practical means, they don’t feel pain, or experience being alive as we do. You know, I’m well aware I need carbon from somewhere, something has to die so I can live. But that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reduce suffering of others just for my pleasure. Maybe enjoying cooking really helps, though. I can conjure up a lot of tasty stuff that just works well without meat, so it’s not like I’d miss anything.

ryukoposting 4y ago

> Why, and I ask this not out of spite but honest curiosity, do sentient beings have to die for your diet? Because they taste good.

api 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Zone) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_(The_Twilight_Z...