5 ms·

Just a note but I'm fairly certain this is purely from the perspective of Google Chrome, meaning it excludes google3 (Google's repo for nearly all Google servic

by cletus 4y ago

Just a note but I'm fairly certain this is purely from the perspective of Google Chrome, meaning it excludes google3 (Google's repo for nearly all Google services). I don't know this for a fact but I suspect it's the case. I only bring it up because google3 C++ is (or was; it's now been years since I've done this directly) a very different beast. It was notionally compliant with recent standards but a very restrictive subset of features were allowed. The C++ standard currently sits at >1800 pages. Looking through these examples, I'm honestly horrified. The semantics around moving and copying and the many ways you can initialize a variable [1] and how you can mess that up so it's actually a copy instead of a move is just mind-bending. Can we also talk about how in 2022 we're still talking about and getting wrong const-correctness? I guess we're going ever further now because this presentation touches on constexpr correctness (as in const vs constexpr). Another thought: problems like comparisons between base and derived problems shouldn't even be problems (IMHO) because you've already messed up by wanting that behaviour. The change about not doing arithmetic on enum values is a good one but pretty late. TIL this is a valid way to cast: size_t{expanded_size} [1]: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/initialization https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/initialization

pjmlp 4y ago
The standard includes the standard library, a tiny set of pages when compared against Python, Java, F#, C# language reference, VM reference + standard library printout.
arinlen 4y ago
> The C++ standard currently sits at >1800 pages. Looking through these examples, I'm honestly horrified. I feel you're embelishing too much your personal feeling of horror. The C++20 standard doc is a hair smaller than 1900 pages, but the complete core language is specified in the first 460 pages, of which around 100 are dedicated to templates. Thus around 1400 pages of a 1900page doc are dedicated to specify libraries that throughout the years have been adopted by the standard. We're talking about stuff that was released with Boost and since then was deemed appropriate to make it standard. Focusing on the 460 pages that specify the core language, most of this content has not been changed since C++98. The C++14 doc covered the core language with around 420 pages. Thus it makes zero sense to claim than suddenly C++ became horrifying because of the extra 20 sheets of paper you need to print out.
- cletus 4y ago
  You could focus on those 460 pages but I'll raise 2 points: 1. There's still a lot of complexity and ambiguity you can fit in 460 pages. This presentation notes one example of decrement operators on volatile variables being deprecated because the behaviour was undefined; and 2. Can you really separate the standard library from the language at this point? Things like move semantics depend on std. Does anyone actually use C++ without any of the standard library?
  - deadbeeves 4y ago
    1. No, that's wrong. Incrementing a volatile isn't undefined. The problem is that some people are using volatile when they actually want atomic variables, so the behavior of the program becomes undefined when you have two threads incrementing the same volatile variable at the same time. The compiler might or might not compile volatile_variable++ into an atomic operation, but some people wrote code under the misunderstanding of the language that it always would. 2. Sure. While it's true that using certain features of the language technically requires parts of the standard library, those parts are very few and very simple. What is there? std::move(), std::pair and std::tuple, <typeinfo>, and perhaps a couple other things?
    - jcelerier 4y ago
      std::move is just syntax sugar over static_cast<T&&>(t) ; the language feature that needs library support afaik are: - Overloading some of the "new" operators (need #include <new>) - <initializer_list> - typeid which needs <typeinfo> as you said I don't see which parts of the language need pair and tuple at all?
      - deadbeeves 4y ago
        I was mistaken. I thought you needed std::tuple for structured binding, but it seems the language can also destructure other types.
        4y ago
pkasting 4y ago
This is from Chromium's perspective, yes, but Chromium complies with the Google style guide. I disagree with your characterization that "a very restrictive subset of features" are allowed, though. What's banned is relatively limited, IMO: http://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html http://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html

by cletus 4y ago

pjmlp 4y ago

The standard includes the standard library, a tiny set of pages when compared against Python, Java, F#, C# language reference, VM reference + standard library printout.

arinlen 4y ago

> The C++ standard currently sits at >1800 pages. Looking through these examples, I'm honestly horrified. I feel you're embelishing too much your personal feeling of horror. The C++20 standard doc is a hair smaller than 1900 pages, but the complete core language is specified in the first 460 pages, of which around 100 are dedicated to templates. Thus around 1400 pages of a 1900page doc are dedicated to specify libraries that throughout the years have been adopted by the standard. We're talking about stuff that was released with Boost and since then was deemed appropriate to make it standard. Focusing on the 460 pages that specify the core language, most of this content has not been changed since C++98. The C++14 doc covered the core language with around 420 pages. Thus it makes zero sense to claim than suddenly C++ became horrifying because of the extra 20 sheets of paper you need to print out.

cletus 4y ago
You could focus on those 460 pages but I'll raise 2 points: 1. There's still a lot of complexity and ambiguity you can fit in 460 pages. This presentation notes one example of decrement operators on volatile variables being deprecated because the behaviour was undefined; and 2. Can you really separate the standard library from the language at this point? Things like move semantics depend on std. Does anyone actually use C++ without any of the standard library?
- deadbeeves 4y ago
  1. No, that's wrong. Incrementing a volatile isn't undefined. The problem is that some people are using volatile when they actually want atomic variables, so the behavior of the program becomes undefined when you have two threads incrementing the same volatile variable at the same time. The compiler might or might not compile volatile_variable++ into an atomic operation, but some people wrote code under the misunderstanding of the language that it always would. 2. Sure. While it's true that using certain features of the language technically requires parts of the standard library, those parts are very few and very simple. What is there? std::move(), std::pair and std::tuple, <typeinfo>, and perhaps a couple other things?
  - jcelerier 4y ago
    std::move is just syntax sugar over static_cast<T&&>(t) ; the language feature that needs library support afaik are: - Overloading some of the "new" operators (need #include <new>) - <initializer_list> - typeid which needs <typeinfo> as you said I don't see which parts of the language need pair and tuple at all?
    - deadbeeves 4y ago
      I was mistaken. I thought you needed std::tuple for structured binding, but it seems the language can also destructure other types.
      - 4y ago

pkasting 4y ago

This is from Chromium's perspective, yes, but Chromium complies with the Google style guide. I disagree with your characterization that "a very restrictive subset of features" are allowed, though. What's banned is relatively limited, IMO: http://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html http://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html