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> If the people who advocate addressing climate change actually believed this, they wouldn’t constantly be trying to tie it to other unpopular issues. They’d be

> If the people who advocate addressing climate change actually believed this, they wouldn’t constantly be trying to tie it to other unpopular issues. They’d be willing to compromise on everything else to gather the broadest possible support base for solutions. Question of the strawman variety: if a bill comes about that passes meaningful climate change reform but bans abortion (in the united states) altogether, is your position that such a bill should be accepted by the climate change advocacy groups?

bombcar 4y ago
Arguably if they are single issue advocacy groups they shouldn’t care about the associated riders (and this would go for the anti abortion side too). But all too often you find that they are NOT actually single issue groups and instead just basically a portion of a political side.
- pas 4y ago
  "obviously" no one is really a walking talking voting caricature. yet still there are big groups that care only about a handful issues meaningfully. eg. they usually don't vote, and very few thinfs might move them to do so. but those who vote usually are already well motivated to care for things the parties carry.
NhanH 4y ago
You need to ask that question to the climate activists. GP didn't mention himself being one, it might not be applicable to him.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I think climate change is a very important problem, too important to be left to “climate activists.” The environmental movement totally screwed us in the 1970s by lashing climate-change activism to anti-nuclear and degrowth. The only politically feasible way of addressing climate change is to grow and engineer our way out of it. Even leaving aside people in the developed world, people in India and China will not accept that the solution for them is to delay or avoid industrialization and remain subsistence farmers.
zeckalpha 4y ago
One aspect of climate change is overpopulation. These issues may be more related than you think.
- gruez 4y ago
  That might be true in principle but practically speaking whatever population increase caused by abortion bans in the US is going to be dwarfed by the population boom happening in africa/asia.
  - zeckalpha 4y ago
    Soon: abortion wars. The US could invade any nation without an abortion ban to liberate fetuses.
- jokethrowaway 4y ago
  It's ok, hookup culture already fixed that, western societies are below replacement rate. We need to worry about disappearing instead.
  - anemoiac 4y ago
    You think that “hookup culture” is the reason for the “West’s” low birthrates? This is a well-studied topic and I haven’t heard anyone else making that claim…
    - yucky 4y ago
      Why wouldn't it be related? Women would rather not have kids with random hookups so if they're all having random hookups with everyone on Tinder/Bumble/Whatever then when exactly would they be having kids? Of course it's related. Also, look at the levels of estrogen-related compounds in our drinking water due to all of the birth control and think of what effect that might have on male fertility, which we know is the lowest in recorded history...
      - 4y ago
rayiner 4y ago
If someone believes that climate change is an existential threat this would seem to be a utilitarian no brainer.
- staticman2 4y ago
  And what if someone is not a utilitarian?
  - wyager 4y ago
    Then I don't care much about their analytical process except insofar as I can steer it.
    - staticman2 4y ago
      A funny (to me) parody of Utilitarian thinking is in this comic strip: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/420 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/420
      - wyager 4y ago
        It's a reasonable parody of EA-style uniform utilitarians, but has nothing on hedonic/non-uniform utilitarians. I also don't take EA-style uniform utilitarianism seriously (specifically because of the type of thing in that strip - I care more about my family/friends/community than random people I don't know or have any relation to).
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    What if someone feels so strongly about a woman's right to choose they are willing to see the world burn? I would not call that person a climate change advocate, I would call them a fanatical abortion rights advocate.
    - staticman2 4y ago
      Let's change the scenario to explore the framework of your argument. Suppose Vladimir Puten says he'll nuke the planet tomorrow unless every Apple employee dances naked outdoors then burns their headquarters to the ground. Apple does not burn their HQ down and the employees refuse to dance outdoors, naked. Are they "fanatical Apple computer advocates and/ or fanatical prudes?" Or does game theory suggest responding to threats is a bad idea?
RyEgswuCsn 4y ago
> if a bill comes about that passes meaningful climate change reform but bans abortion (in the united states) altogether, is your position that such a bill should be accepted by the climate change advocacy groups? If the world ends tomorrow and the only way to avert it is to ban abortion then almost certainly yes, otherwise the baseline deal ought to be better.

bombcar 4y ago

Arguably if they are single issue advocacy groups they shouldn’t care about the associated riders (and this would go for the anti abortion side too). But all too often you find that they are NOT actually single issue groups and instead just basically a portion of a political side.

pas 4y ago
"obviously" no one is really a walking talking voting caricature. yet still there are big groups that care only about a handful issues meaningfully. eg. they usually don't vote, and very few thinfs might move them to do so. but those who vote usually are already well motivated to care for things the parties carry.

NhanH 4y ago

You need to ask that question to the climate activists. GP didn't mention himself being one, it might not be applicable to him.

rayiner 4y ago
I think climate change is a very important problem, too important to be left to “climate activists.” The environmental movement totally screwed us in the 1970s by lashing climate-change activism to anti-nuclear and degrowth. The only politically feasible way of addressing climate change is to grow and engineer our way out of it. Even leaving aside people in the developed world, people in India and China will not accept that the solution for them is to delay or avoid industrialization and remain subsistence farmers.

zeckalpha 4y ago

One aspect of climate change is overpopulation. These issues may be more related than you think.

gruez 4y ago
That might be true in principle but practically speaking whatever population increase caused by abortion bans in the US is going to be dwarfed by the population boom happening in africa/asia.
- zeckalpha 4y ago
  Soon: abortion wars. The US could invade any nation without an abortion ban to liberate fetuses.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
It's ok, hookup culture already fixed that, western societies are below replacement rate. We need to worry about disappearing instead.
- anemoiac 4y ago
  You think that “hookup culture” is the reason for the “West’s” low birthrates? This is a well-studied topic and I haven’t heard anyone else making that claim…
  - yucky 4y ago
    Why wouldn't it be related? Women would rather not have kids with random hookups so if they're all having random hookups with everyone on Tinder/Bumble/Whatever then when exactly would they be having kids? Of course it's related. Also, look at the levels of estrogen-related compounds in our drinking water due to all of the birth control and think of what effect that might have on male fertility, which we know is the lowest in recorded history...
    - 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

If someone believes that climate change is an existential threat this would seem to be a utilitarian no brainer.

staticman2 4y ago
And what if someone is not a utilitarian?
- wyager 4y ago
  Then I don't care much about their analytical process except insofar as I can steer it.
  - staticman2 4y ago
    A funny (to me) parody of Utilitarian thinking is in this comic strip: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/420 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/420
    - wyager 4y ago
      It's a reasonable parody of EA-style uniform utilitarians, but has nothing on hedonic/non-uniform utilitarians. I also don't take EA-style uniform utilitarianism seriously (specifically because of the type of thing in that strip - I care more about my family/friends/community than random people I don't know or have any relation to).
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  What if someone feels so strongly about a woman's right to choose they are willing to see the world burn? I would not call that person a climate change advocate, I would call them a fanatical abortion rights advocate.
  - staticman2 4y ago
    Let's change the scenario to explore the framework of your argument. Suppose Vladimir Puten says he'll nuke the planet tomorrow unless every Apple employee dances naked outdoors then burns their headquarters to the ground. Apple does not burn their HQ down and the employees refuse to dance outdoors, naked. Are they "fanatical Apple computer advocates and/ or fanatical prudes?" Or does game theory suggest responding to threats is a bad idea?

RyEgswuCsn 4y ago

> if a bill comes about that passes meaningful climate change reform but bans abortion (in the united states) altogether, is your position that such a bill should be accepted by the climate change advocacy groups? If the world ends tomorrow and the only way to avert it is to ban abortion then almost certainly yes, otherwise the baseline deal ought to be better.