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Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't

Here is what Switzerland is doing at the moment to prevent the worst case which would be rolling black outs. They are planning for the worst case so they don't get caught with their pants down. This includes: - Currently trying to fill as many reservoirs as possible - Securing gas in foreign reservoirs. - Plan for emergency gas plants that can be operational by January/February, the time Switzerland has the least electricity available. - Legal framework to deal with energy shortage such as deciding which industry is considered essential and what kind of compensation would be provided for those that get shut off if it gets to this. - The SBB is calculating how much electricity they can save by reducing trains and also piping power into homes instead of trains. From what I heard, current calculations show reducing service by 30% only saves around 10% electricity. They also put out a plan which starts with asking people to use less electricity to worst case which would be planned 4 hour rolling blackouts. Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Switzerland produces more electricity per year than it needs. The issue is that the amounts don't line up so they export excess and import when they don't have enough.

bombcar 4y ago
I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.
- Someone 4y ago
  Firstly, how would you keep consumers honest about what’s essential? Secondly, I think “essential” will depend on the duration of the blackout. For a blackout of a few hours, keeping WiFi running so that work from home can continue probably is more essential than heating a water boiler. If the blackout takes a few days, that may change.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    There will always be some cheaters and “lifehack - do this dangerous wiring and keep the wifi on” but in general people leave things alone. We already have interconnect devices for A/C and water heating and car charging in some locations.
  - sp332 4y ago
    Well, threaten them with blackouts if they dont cut enough usage.
  - toast0 4y ago
    Charge higher rates for essential. Offer rebates for certain users with life safety requirements for uninterrupted power.
    - kennend3 4y ago
      > Charge higher rates for essential. This makes ZERO sense.. I live in a cold climate.. Our furnace is "essential" to prevent my family and i from freezing to death. Under your plan we should pay more for this? And those who cant afford it? Let me guess, government rebates, making a complex program even more complex? Any time your solution requires "rebates".. it is flawed from the start.
      - Someone 4y ago
        You can also write “Charge higher rates for essential” as “Offer cheaper electricity that has lower quality of service guarantees”. If seen that way, you wouldn’t pay more; you would have to he choice to get cheaper electricity. I foresee high demand for electronics that seamlessly switch from the lower quality of service feed to the ‘essential’ one when that cheaper feed stops working, though.
        toast0 4y ago
        You could have tarrif rules that the essential meter charges at the regular rate if the regular meter is energized, or near the regular rate. That would have the benefit of letting the power utility accurately forecast the essential load, and would disincentivize the transfer switches.
- bitschubser_ 4y ago
  isn't it much "easier" to implement some kind of progressive price on energy? first 1000kw/h are "cheaper" than market (per person in household), next 500kw/h double the price, next 500kw/h doubles again etc... For things like heatpumps you usually have an extra meter with special day/night tarifs (in germany), the rest is metered as general consumption. I always wonder through how much energy my peers burn, we have a 2 person household with 2 e-bikes which are used regulary + both in home office (heating is gas) and "just" need 1200kw/h pA (and our appliances are not all A++)
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Progressive pricing exists for commercial users but in general has been too complicated for home users.
    - bitschubser_ 4y ago
      just out of curiosity because I have no clue :D why is it regarded as complicated? For waste you already have a basic tarif + extra for every member in the household, and the "progression" is that you have to buy really expensive "waste bags" if you produce more waste
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Use more pay more is pretty simple and implemented - and the lowest tiers are really cheap. The complicated one is daily tiers - when power is more or less expensive at different times.
        bitschubser_ 4y ago
        are daily tiers and dynamic pricing really needed for consumers, shoudn't it even out on the long term? Until recently it worked quite well for a energy supplier to supply me with a fixed rate for a year and still making profit (when I take a look at their yearly earnings report, I think I also subsidized heavy users with my low usage :D). over a year the price should average out quite nicely when I look at the energy mix in germany and the cost. The only "problem" we currently have is the merit order principle and the pegging of the (haywire) gas price to the energy price which makes calculations for suppliers difficult (and the absence of building renewable, and the maintenance and shutoffs of nuclear :D). Aside from that consumption is quite foreseeable and production also, so daily rates should not matter that much? I think paying by the hour/daily makes things just more complicated, I actually don't really want to time my laundry cooking with future prices on an hour/daily base :D
- whiplash451 4y ago
  You might be better off capping the power for each home and letting their occupants decide what is essential or not.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    People in general are idiots and would freeze to death at the end of the month just as they roll to credit when the paycheck dries up. You’d have to do it on a day to day basis or hourly. That could actually work - use too much power in an hour or day and it shuts off for awhile.
    - bittercynic 4y ago
      GP suggests capping power, not energy, which avoids this scenario.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Do you mean limiting the size of the service to a house? Because unless you have massive batteries for intermittent loads that would prohibit dryers and ovens from being electric.
        bittercynic 4y ago
        If we're going to the effort of having dual-service to each home, we could have the "essentials" service of 500W or something that we'd try to make very reliable, to operate the fridge, medical equipment, communications, or whatever the residents deemed essential. Then the other, regular service could still have whatever capacity was already there, but would be subject to intermittent blackouts as necessary to keep everyone's essentials on. This would require some additional infrastructure, but might be worth it if the blackouts are going to be too frequent.
  - elric 4y ago
    So your freezer shuts down when your toaster is on? A hard cap that's low enough to make a difference seems like a bad idea, there are many devices which shouldn't be cut off suddenly. And that's ignoring things like medical devices. Of course there's already a hard cap (usually ~9kW over here), but I suspect most people never reach it. There are plans in Belgium to charged based on peak power (something silly like "max power used in any 15 minute period"), which would drive up the cost for the average consumer without reducing demand (as people tend not to have much choice in when they use their most power hungry appliances).
- koheripbal 4y ago
  Something similar was done in Canada about 40 years ago with the high-usage lights installed in every home (usually next to the washer/dryer). If the light was on, people paid significantly more. It was very very effective at reducing peak consumption.
  - hrpnk 4y ago
    This is great, because it shows/teaches people what high-usage is. So far, I've seen very little guidance and advice to citizens on how exactly they can contribute to lower energy usage. Only businesses say they will stop production or change opening times. Is this a missed opportunity?
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      > because it shows/teaches people what high-usage is. Consumer awareness of what appliances use the most power should really be a lot higher. It's actually pretty simple too - devices that generate a lot of heat are the ones consuming a lot of energy. That includes devices whose purpose may be to keep things cool - your fridge and A/C still generate significant waste heat even in the latter case it's vented externally. A rare exception would be a car-battery charger, which can obviously draw significant power but the heat is generated later when the power is drawn from the battery and in a dissipated fashion that's hard to detect directly but is still significant.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      These days we have the tech to make this really smooth. Have a phone app with live prices, and integrate with iot makers so things like washing machines and dish washers can be set to trigger on the cheapest times. Have houses automatically heat up earlier in the morning before people start waking up and consuming more power
  - kennend3 4y ago
    This doesnt make sense, at least not for Ontario. Prior to "Time of use" billing (and having to upgrade all our meters in like 2016) i dont see how this was possible. The old meters simply measured how much power was used, they had no idea of WHEN it was used. The electric company would go house to house and "read the meter" once a month and report this back to billing. Based on your usage a bill would be produced and sent to you. How/when would a "high usage light" come into play? I grew up in a house which was over 40 years old, there was no "high-usage" lights near the waster/dryer. Mostly because homes built back then had the waster/dryer in the basement and any "usage lights" would be ineffective.
- cypress66 4y ago
  Doing that seems insane instead of just fixing the root problem.
- kennend3 4y ago
  Here (Ontario) we have "time of use" billing https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/electricity-rates https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/elect... The idea is to move "load" from peaks to avoid shortages by charging more to use power during peaks. The idea of "priority customers" has a long standing principle. "High usage" customers often agree to be the first to be cut in return for discounts. Targeting "residential customers" in this way is NOT effective as it takes a LOT of houses to equal the amount of power "commercial/industrial" users consume. Time of use billing is probably the better option.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I think this is happening. Except, instead of two separate meters they are instead installing "smart meters" which can do this and much more.
xiphias2 4y ago
Here's what rich countries are doing in general: outbidding pour countries for the limited amount of resources available in the short term. I lived in Switzerland and of course they are doing great, but Swiss people won't be the ones freezing to death in winter. Also the amount of LPG redirected from India and Pakistan to Europe will have a huge effect on those countries. In Hungary the country is trying to get back to wood burning and lignite (the worst type of coal), which will increase air pollution enourmously, but I believe it will the worst winter there since I was born (40 years ago).
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Here's what rich countries are doing in general: outbidding pour countries for the limited amount of resources available in the short term. Not just energy, but food, vaccines, medical supplies, consumer products, etc. This has always been the case but now it's at the point where third world countries will probably have major civil unrest and emigration due to the shortages of food and energy they will face from being outbid by Europe and other rich countries during this shortage. Europeans can resort to going on fewer and less expensive vacations to compensate for the increased prices of energy, food, game consoles and GPUs, but I doubt anyone here will actually starve or freeze to death, while that may be an actual reality for some people in some developing nations.
  - jozvolskyef 4y ago
    European != middle class.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      The poor and vulnerable people in places like Austria, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. receive generous welfare and assistance from the government to not starve and freeze to death. They'll be fine. In Eastern Europe, not so much.
      - jozvolskyef 4y ago
sva_ 4y ago
> They also put out a plan which starts with asking people to use less electricity to worst case which would be planned 4 hour rolling blackouts. Time to buy some powerbanks
- bitL 4y ago
  Any particular one to recommend?
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    An EV is a pretty good powerbank if one needs a car anyway.
    - bitL 4y ago
      That's a bit too steep just for a powerbank ;-)
      - rightbyte 4y ago
        If you have a gasoline car you can charge in that from the starter battery. A starter battery is about 1kWh. Or just keep a lead acid battery around charged up and connect a ciggarette lighter socket to it.
        bitL 4y ago
        I was specifically curious about dedicated powerbanks. This discussion got sidetracked to cars.
        squarefoot 4y ago
        This one isn't intended for cars, but apparently is powerful enough to be able to recharge one, and popular youtuber Bitluni modified it to do just that. https://www.anker.com/eu-en/products/a1770 https://www.anker.com/eu-en/products/a1770 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE447r1mFXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE447r1mFXM
trebligdivad 4y ago
The 'Securing gas in foreign reservoirs' is going to get messy for everyone, all the countries are doing this, but when everyone is short of it (if there's a very cold winter with low wind) - what's going to happen? Some of those 'secure gas' isn't going to deliver.
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  Well, that’s the trillion dollar question no one has the answer to. But politicians say it’s going to be ok. So you know, we’re probably screwed.
- sschueller 4y ago
  The issue here is that Switzerland does not have any large gas storage in its borders and has for a while been paying other countries for storage. They need to make sure that gas still belongs to Switzerland when it comes down to the wire.
thefz 4y ago
To nitpick, Switzerland is not part of Europe.
- Sin2x 4y ago
  EU does not equal Europe.
- nairboon 4y ago
  It isn't? I didn't realized that we've moved...
  - bitL 4y ago
    News for hackers...
  - nix23 4y ago
    You can thank CERN for that and the mirror-black-hole they created ;)
    - sschueller 4y ago
      I guess we are the hole in the "Swiss Cheese" or for non-Americans; Emmentaler that is Europe.
      - nix23 4y ago
        Spanish cheese has much more holes...but smaller ;)
Sharlin 4y ago
> Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Interesting. Here in Finland the plan is to target domestic use first if the push comes to shove, to keep the industry up and running.
- mtsr 4y ago
  One reason for the difference could be that heating in consumers homes is very much dependent on electricity (whether or not the actual heating is gas-powered notwithstanding), whereas in other countries there may be more woodfired heating, for example.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- newsclues 4y ago
  Does Switzerland border Russia or another country that may invade if industrial production shuts down?
  - Sharlin 4y ago
    Russia is in no shape to attack anybody right now. And industrial production doesn’t really have anything to do with any hypothetical acts of war. The fact is simply that the industry is vital to keeping the economy running, while rolling blackouts in homes are in the end merely an inconvenience.
panick21_ 4y ago
The saddest vote (outside of immigration) in Swiss history is our complete destruction of nuclear energy in terms of both research and production. Instead of building new reactors we have committed to ... something. I only hope we can overturn this complete idiocy and start to build new reactors. Having been a fan of this for so long this is just sad and pathetic that we now have to consider things like rolling blackouts. That this is a thing in Europe in general is sad.
- kennend3 4y ago
  As someone who is also "pro-nuclear" it is upsetting to see this take place. The "anti-nuclear" camp has won, but based on what sort of logical argument? Fear? what about Chernobyl? It is one thing to be "anti-nuclear" but they failed to provide alternatives. "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Now millions face rolling blackouts and energy shortages when nuclear could have been providing clean energy. I live within 8KM of a nuclear plant which has been running accident free 24x7 since 1971.
  - rasz 4y ago
    The role of Russian-funded environmental organisations in shaping EU climate policy https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127...
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      Dramatic Question. Boring but sensible answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275-ASW_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... > Russia is one of the world’s biggest producers of oil, gas and coal. Continuous reliance on fossil fuels and delays to clean energy transition benefit Russia. > Following on from this the Commission has put forward an additional proposal to speed up transition to clean energy sources by amending the directives on the Energy Performance of Buildings, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy[3].
  - 4y ago
dafrie 4y ago
Additionally there are preparations to temporarily suspend noise/pollution legislation that forbids backup power generators to run for more than 50 hours a year [0]. While the current idea is to only exempt sites (around 300 sites, 250 MW installed capacity) that are already used by SwissGrid for Ancillary Services [1], there is political pressure to temporarily include all sites with installed backup power generators (> 4 GW). If even a fraction of this installed capacity would run in times of shortages, this should further reduce demand without causing disruption on industrial production or even having to schedule rolling blackouts. [0] (German) https://www.srf.ch/news/wirtschaft/drohende-energiekrise-stromknappheit-grosses-potenzial-von-notstromgeneratoren https://www.srf.ch/news/wirtschaft/drohende-energiekrise-str... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_power) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_p...
fy20 4y ago
How exactly will rolling blackouts work when the grid spans many countries? What's to stop Germany saying they will pay more to keep some industry running if Poland turns off electricity to some homes?
nopinkglasses 4y ago
Before we all congratulate Switzerland on their great planning, here is a counter-point article from 3 days ago painting a very different picture. The link to the article in question: https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/09/23/en-suisse-l-angoisse-energetique-tourne-a-la-crise-de-nerfs_6142799_3210.html https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/09/23/en-s... With a copy of the text (in French) as it's behind a paywall. Deepl should do a decent enough job to translate it to English. INTERNATIONAL En Suisse, l’angoisse énergétique tourne à la crise de nerfs Dépendant de ses voisins allemand et français pour assurer une partie de son approvisionnement électrique en hiver, le petit pays alpin découvre, mais un peu tard, qu’il n’a pas assez investi dans les énergies renouvelables. Par Serge Enderlin (Genève, correspondance) LETTRE DE GENÈVE Felix Suhner est le patron de l’hôtel-restaurant Bad Bubendorf dans la localité homonyme, un village à une vingtaine de kilomètres au sud de Bâle. De lui, on peut dire qu’il a à la fois la tête sur les épaules et pas froid aux yeux. Depuis la semaine dernière, il n’ajoute rien moins que 5 % à toutes les additions. Le motif ? Une « contribution aux frais d’énergie », en forte augmentation dans la Confédération suisse comme partout ailleurs en Europe. Dans un pays où il n’est pas rare qu’un simple café coûte près de 5 euros dans des endroits parfaitement anodins, cette hausse inédite n’est pas passée inaperçue. Conscient de la moue de ses clients, Felix Suhner plaide la transparence : « J’indique clairement et systématiquement cette charge séparément sur chaque quittance. Sans cela, je ne pourrais pas rester rentable. » L’association suisse des restaurateurs, GastroSuisse, a pris une position très helvétique : elle n’encourage pas la démarche, mais ne la condamne pas non plus. L’anecdote est en tout cas révélatrice du climat délétère qui s’est installé en Suisse depuis deux mois, où la peur de manquer d’énergie tourne à l’obsession. Lenteurs helvétiques Le pays alpin pourrait en effet vivre cet hiver ses premières coupures de courant depuis la seconde guerre mondiale. Une perspective qui crispe la classe politique et le gouvernement fédéral, contraint d’affronter une seconde crise majeure après celle liée au Covid-19 au cours de laquelle il n’avait guère brillé. « Quand la pandémie a surgi, l’Office fédéral de la santé [le ministère] fut d’abord incapable d’estimer le nombre de cas : les données, tardives et incomplètes, étaient parfois communiquées… par fax. Rebelote avec la crise électrique annoncée : le gestionnaire du réseau, Swissgrid, publie les chiffres de consommation globale avec plusieurs mois de décalage ! », dénonce un éditorialiste. De fait, il est impossible pour les ménages et les entreprises suisses de connaître avec précision leur consommation de courant en temps réel. Pour cela, il aurait fallu pouvoir compter sur des compteurs intelligents, type Linky, mais « la Suisse, véritable tiers-monde numérique, ne les a pas installés ». La Confédération ne connaît donc pas la consommation d’électricité en juin dernier en Suisse ; elle ne dispose de données fiables que jusqu’en mai. Or, ce n’est que sur la base de chiffres actuels que l’on peut décider si les efforts d’économies entrepris sont suffisants ou si des restrictions, des interdictions ou, dans le pire des cas, des contingentements sont nécessaires. La situation est encore pire pour la consommation de gaz : Berne ne reçoit les données qu’une fois par an. « S’il fait froid cet hiver, ce sera très serré », a confirmé, mercredi 21 septembre, Bastian Schwark dans le Neue Zürcher Zeitung. L’homme a été nommé manageur de la crise énergétique par la Confédération. Et que fait le gouvernement pour anticiper la pénurie annoncée ? Comme durant la pandémie, il met sur pied une task force, dont le rôle consistera d’abord à consulter les cantons, fédéralisme oblige. Ce mécanisme hautement démocratique, qui est l’une des forces de la Suisse (où citoyens et collectivités publiques sont écoutés en permanence), devient un lourd handicap quand les nuages s’amoncellent et qu’il faut réagir vite. La Suisse, dit le proverbe, n’est pas taillée pour le gros temps. Comment en est-on arrivé là dans un pays dont les deux tiers du territoire sont recouverts de montagnes, qui abritent plusieurs dizaines de gros barrages et des réseaux d’adduction d’eau vertigineux pour alimenter les lacs de retenue en altitude ? D’abord, l’hydroélectricité ne couvre que la moitié des besoins. Ensuite, la Suisse ne compte plus qu’une poignée de réacteurs nucléaires depuis qu’elle a décidé de quitter l’atome au lendemain de l’accident de Fukushima, en 2011 – même s’il est désormais question, comme en Allemagne, de « sortir de la sortie du nucléaire ». Enfin, elle n’a jamais su, ou pu, prendre le virage des énergies renouvelables, notamment en raison du droit d’opposition des citoyens, favorisé par la démocratie directe. A titre de comparaison, on ne dénombre qu’une quarantaine d’éoliennes sur le territoire suisse contre près de 3 000 en Autriche, pays à la topographie et à la population presque identiques. Pour pallier ces déficiences, Berne avait toujours pu compter sur ses voisins français et allemand en important de l’électricité pendant la saison froide et les pics de consommation. Les centrales nucléaires de l’Hexagone, les dizaines de milliers d’éoliennes et les centrales à gaz allemandes fournissaient en courant excédentaire ce qui faisait défaut dans la production suisse. Mais, pour la première fois, il n’est pas certain que la France et l’Allemagne disposent d’excédents ces prochains mois. Côté français, le parc nucléaire est en difficulté. Et côté allemand, l’incertitude sur les livraisons du russe Gazprom annonce une saison froide, où toutes les capacités disponibles seront réservées en priorité à la consommation nationale. Pour préparer la population suisse à l’hiver de tous les dangers, le Conseil fédéral s’en remettra, comme souvent, au bon sens de ses citoyens. Qui devront économiser l’énergie, quitte à être infantilisés. Fin août, le gouvernement a lancé une grande campagne de communication à 10 millions de francs suisses (10,5 millions d’euros). Pleines pages d’annonces dans la presse nationale, affiches dans les rues, numéro vert et un site, Stop-gaspillage, sur le thème « L’énergie est limitée. Ne la gaspillons pas. » Parmi les perles : « Le fait de s’habiller chaudement plutôt que de monter le chauffage est recommandé. » Ou encore : « Toute lumière allumée dans une pièce vide gaspille inutilement de l’énergie : il faut toujours penser à éteindre les lampes lorsqu’on quitte une pièce. » Lapalissades ridicules ? Sans doute, mais c’est aussi un moyen pour l’Etat de se dédouaner par avance des reproches qu’on ne manquera pas de lui adresser quand les factures des consommateurs exploseront. Fidèle au dogme libéral du pays, il n’interviendra pas pour les aider.

bombcar 4y ago

I wonder if it is cost effective going forward to install two meters and panels on every house with one being “essential” and the other being “intermittent” so the power company has the option of blacking out the intermittent boxes only. I’d rather have all my computers, lights, etc shut down than my whole house.

Someone 4y ago
Firstly, how would you keep consumers honest about what’s essential? Secondly, I think “essential” will depend on the duration of the blackout. For a blackout of a few hours, keeping WiFi running so that work from home can continue probably is more essential than heating a water boiler. If the blackout takes a few days, that may change.
- bombcar 4y ago
  There will always be some cheaters and “lifehack - do this dangerous wiring and keep the wifi on” but in general people leave things alone. We already have interconnect devices for A/C and water heating and car charging in some locations.
- sp332 4y ago
  Well, threaten them with blackouts if they dont cut enough usage.
- toast0 4y ago
  Charge higher rates for essential. Offer rebates for certain users with life safety requirements for uninterrupted power.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    > Charge higher rates for essential. This makes ZERO sense.. I live in a cold climate.. Our furnace is "essential" to prevent my family and i from freezing to death. Under your plan we should pay more for this? And those who cant afford it? Let me guess, government rebates, making a complex program even more complex? Any time your solution requires "rebates".. it is flawed from the start.
    - Someone 4y ago
      You can also write “Charge higher rates for essential” as “Offer cheaper electricity that has lower quality of service guarantees”. If seen that way, you wouldn’t pay more; you would have to he choice to get cheaper electricity. I foresee high demand for electronics that seamlessly switch from the lower quality of service feed to the ‘essential’ one when that cheaper feed stops working, though.
      - toast0 4y ago
        You could have tarrif rules that the essential meter charges at the regular rate if the regular meter is energized, or near the regular rate. That would have the benefit of letting the power utility accurately forecast the essential load, and would disincentivize the transfer switches.
bitschubser_ 4y ago
isn't it much "easier" to implement some kind of progressive price on energy? first 1000kw/h are "cheaper" than market (per person in household), next 500kw/h double the price, next 500kw/h doubles again etc... For things like heatpumps you usually have an extra meter with special day/night tarifs (in germany), the rest is metered as general consumption. I always wonder through how much energy my peers burn, we have a 2 person household with 2 e-bikes which are used regulary + both in home office (heating is gas) and "just" need 1200kw/h pA (and our appliances are not all A++)
- bombcar 4y ago
  Progressive pricing exists for commercial users but in general has been too complicated for home users.
  - bitschubser_ 4y ago
    just out of curiosity because I have no clue :D why is it regarded as complicated? For waste you already have a basic tarif + extra for every member in the household, and the "progression" is that you have to buy really expensive "waste bags" if you produce more waste
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Use more pay more is pretty simple and implemented - and the lowest tiers are really cheap. The complicated one is daily tiers - when power is more or less expensive at different times.
      - bitschubser_ 4y ago
        are daily tiers and dynamic pricing really needed for consumers, shoudn't it even out on the long term? Until recently it worked quite well for a energy supplier to supply me with a fixed rate for a year and still making profit (when I take a look at their yearly earnings report, I think I also subsidized heavy users with my low usage :D). over a year the price should average out quite nicely when I look at the energy mix in germany and the cost. The only "problem" we currently have is the merit order principle and the pegging of the (haywire) gas price to the energy price which makes calculations for suppliers difficult (and the absence of building renewable, and the maintenance and shutoffs of nuclear :D). Aside from that consumption is quite foreseeable and production also, so daily rates should not matter that much? I think paying by the hour/daily makes things just more complicated, I actually don't really want to time my laundry cooking with future prices on an hour/daily base :D
whiplash451 4y ago
You might be better off capping the power for each home and letting their occupants decide what is essential or not.
- bombcar 4y ago
  People in general are idiots and would freeze to death at the end of the month just as they roll to credit when the paycheck dries up. You’d have to do it on a day to day basis or hourly. That could actually work - use too much power in an hour or day and it shuts off for awhile.
  - bittercynic 4y ago
    GP suggests capping power, not energy, which avoids this scenario.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Do you mean limiting the size of the service to a house? Because unless you have massive batteries for intermittent loads that would prohibit dryers and ovens from being electric.
      - bittercynic 4y ago
        If we're going to the effort of having dual-service to each home, we could have the "essentials" service of 500W or something that we'd try to make very reliable, to operate the fridge, medical equipment, communications, or whatever the residents deemed essential. Then the other, regular service could still have whatever capacity was already there, but would be subject to intermittent blackouts as necessary to keep everyone's essentials on. This would require some additional infrastructure, but might be worth it if the blackouts are going to be too frequent.
- elric 4y ago
  So your freezer shuts down when your toaster is on? A hard cap that's low enough to make a difference seems like a bad idea, there are many devices which shouldn't be cut off suddenly. And that's ignoring things like medical devices. Of course there's already a hard cap (usually ~9kW over here), but I suspect most people never reach it. There are plans in Belgium to charged based on peak power (something silly like "max power used in any 15 minute period"), which would drive up the cost for the average consumer without reducing demand (as people tend not to have much choice in when they use their most power hungry appliances).
koheripbal 4y ago
Something similar was done in Canada about 40 years ago with the high-usage lights installed in every home (usually next to the washer/dryer). If the light was on, people paid significantly more. It was very very effective at reducing peak consumption.
- hrpnk 4y ago
  This is great, because it shows/teaches people what high-usage is. So far, I've seen very little guidance and advice to citizens on how exactly they can contribute to lower energy usage. Only businesses say they will stop production or change opening times. Is this a missed opportunity?
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    > because it shows/teaches people what high-usage is. Consumer awareness of what appliances use the most power should really be a lot higher. It's actually pretty simple too - devices that generate a lot of heat are the ones consuming a lot of energy. That includes devices whose purpose may be to keep things cool - your fridge and A/C still generate significant waste heat even in the latter case it's vented externally. A rare exception would be a car-battery charger, which can obviously draw significant power but the heat is generated later when the power is drawn from the battery and in a dissipated fashion that's hard to detect directly but is still significant.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    These days we have the tech to make this really smooth. Have a phone app with live prices, and integrate with iot makers so things like washing machines and dish washers can be set to trigger on the cheapest times. Have houses automatically heat up earlier in the morning before people start waking up and consuming more power
- kennend3 4y ago
  This doesnt make sense, at least not for Ontario. Prior to "Time of use" billing (and having to upgrade all our meters in like 2016) i dont see how this was possible. The old meters simply measured how much power was used, they had no idea of WHEN it was used. The electric company would go house to house and "read the meter" once a month and report this back to billing. Based on your usage a bill would be produced and sent to you. How/when would a "high usage light" come into play? I grew up in a house which was over 40 years old, there was no "high-usage" lights near the waster/dryer. Mostly because homes built back then had the waster/dryer in the basement and any "usage lights" would be ineffective.
cypress66 4y ago
Doing that seems insane instead of just fixing the root problem.
kennend3 4y ago
Here (Ontario) we have "time of use" billing https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/electricity-rates https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/elect... The idea is to move "load" from peaks to avoid shortages by charging more to use power during peaks. The idea of "priority customers" has a long standing principle. "High usage" customers often agree to be the first to be cut in return for discounts. Targeting "residential customers" in this way is NOT effective as it takes a LOT of houses to equal the amount of power "commercial/industrial" users consume. Time of use billing is probably the better option.
nicoburns 4y ago
I think this is happening. Except, instead of two separate meters they are instead installing "smart meters" which can do this and much more.

xiphias2 4y ago

Here's what rich countries are doing in general: outbidding pour countries for the limited amount of resources available in the short term. I lived in Switzerland and of course they are doing great, but Swiss people won't be the ones freezing to death in winter. Also the amount of LPG redirected from India and Pakistan to Europe will have a huge effect on those countries. In Hungary the country is trying to get back to wood burning and lignite (the worst type of coal), which will increase air pollution enourmously, but I believe it will the worst winter there since I was born (40 years ago).

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Here's what rich countries are doing in general: outbidding pour countries for the limited amount of resources available in the short term. Not just energy, but food, vaccines, medical supplies, consumer products, etc. This has always been the case but now it's at the point where third world countries will probably have major civil unrest and emigration due to the shortages of food and energy they will face from being outbid by Europe and other rich countries during this shortage. Europeans can resort to going on fewer and less expensive vacations to compensate for the increased prices of energy, food, game consoles and GPUs, but I doubt anyone here will actually starve or freeze to death, while that may be an actual reality for some people in some developing nations.
- jozvolskyef 4y ago
  European != middle class.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    The poor and vulnerable people in places like Austria, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. receive generous welfare and assistance from the government to not starve and freeze to death. They'll be fine. In Eastern Europe, not so much.
    - jozvolskyef 4y ago

sva_ 4y ago

> They also put out a plan which starts with asking people to use less electricity to worst case which would be planned 4 hour rolling blackouts. Time to buy some powerbanks

bitL 4y ago
Any particular one to recommend?
- Sharlin 4y ago
  An EV is a pretty good powerbank if one needs a car anyway.
  - bitL 4y ago
    That's a bit too steep just for a powerbank ;-)
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      If you have a gasoline car you can charge in that from the starter battery. A starter battery is about 1kWh. Or just keep a lead acid battery around charged up and connect a ciggarette lighter socket to it.
      - bitL 4y ago
        I was specifically curious about dedicated powerbanks. This discussion got sidetracked to cars.
        squarefoot 4y ago
        This one isn't intended for cars, but apparently is powerful enough to be able to recharge one, and popular youtuber Bitluni modified it to do just that. https://www.anker.com/eu-en/products/a1770 https://www.anker.com/eu-en/products/a1770 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE447r1mFXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE447r1mFXM

trebligdivad 4y ago

The 'Securing gas in foreign reservoirs' is going to get messy for everyone, all the countries are doing this, but when everyone is short of it (if there's a very cold winter with low wind) - what's going to happen? Some of those 'secure gas' isn't going to deliver.

cloutchaser 4y ago
Well, that’s the trillion dollar question no one has the answer to. But politicians say it’s going to be ok. So you know, we’re probably screwed.
sschueller 4y ago
The issue here is that Switzerland does not have any large gas storage in its borders and has for a while been paying other countries for storage. They need to make sure that gas still belongs to Switzerland when it comes down to the wire.

thefz 4y ago

To nitpick, Switzerland is not part of Europe.

Sin2x 4y ago
EU does not equal Europe.
nairboon 4y ago
It isn't? I didn't realized that we've moved...
- bitL 4y ago
  News for hackers...
- nix23 4y ago
  You can thank CERN for that and the mirror-black-hole they created ;)
  - sschueller 4y ago
    I guess we are the hole in the "Swiss Cheese" or for non-Americans; Emmentaler that is Europe.
    - nix23 4y ago
      Spanish cheese has much more holes...but smaller ;)

Sharlin 4y ago

> Peoples' homes not getting electricity will be the last resort and unlikely as large industries will be asked first to stop producing and take the government money. Interesting. Here in Finland the plan is to target domestic use first if the push comes to shove, to keep the industry up and running.

mtsr 4y ago
One reason for the difference could be that heating in consumers homes is very much dependent on electricity (whether or not the actual heating is gas-powered notwithstanding), whereas in other countries there may be more woodfired heating, for example.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
newsclues 4y ago
Does Switzerland border Russia or another country that may invade if industrial production shuts down?
- Sharlin 4y ago
  Russia is in no shape to attack anybody right now. And industrial production doesn’t really have anything to do with any hypothetical acts of war. The fact is simply that the industry is vital to keeping the economy running, while rolling blackouts in homes are in the end merely an inconvenience.

panick21_ 4y ago

The saddest vote (outside of immigration) in Swiss history is our complete destruction of nuclear energy in terms of both research and production. Instead of building new reactors we have committed to ... something. I only hope we can overturn this complete idiocy and start to build new reactors. Having been a fan of this for so long this is just sad and pathetic that we now have to consider things like rolling blackouts. That this is a thing in Europe in general is sad.

kennend3 4y ago
As someone who is also "pro-nuclear" it is upsetting to see this take place. The "anti-nuclear" camp has won, but based on what sort of logical argument? Fear? what about Chernobyl? It is one thing to be "anti-nuclear" but they failed to provide alternatives. "WIND" or "Solar" is not going to replace 3,500 MW of nuclear power without damaging a LOT of land. Now millions face rolling blackouts and energy shortages when nuclear could have been providing clean energy. I live within 8KM of a nuclear plant which has been running accident free 24x7 since 1971.
- rasz 4y ago
  The role of Russian-funded environmental organisations in shaping EU climate policy https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127...
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Dramatic Question. Boring but sensible answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275-ASW_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... > Russia is one of the world’s biggest producers of oil, gas and coal. Continuous reliance on fossil fuels and delays to clean energy transition benefit Russia. > Following on from this the Commission has put forward an additional proposal to speed up transition to clean energy sources by amending the directives on the Energy Performance of Buildings, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy[3].
- 4y ago

dafrie 4y ago

Additionally there are preparations to temporarily suspend noise/pollution legislation that forbids backup power generators to run for more than 50 hours a year [0]. While the current idea is to only exempt sites (around 300 sites, 250 MW installed capacity) that are already used by SwissGrid for Ancillary Services [1], there is political pressure to temporarily include all sites with installed backup power generators (> 4 GW). If even a fraction of this installed capacity would run in times of shortages, this should further reduce demand without causing disruption on industrial production or even having to schedule rolling blackouts. [0] (German) https://www.srf.ch/news/wirtschaft/drohende-energiekrise-stromknappheit-grosses-potenzial-von-notstromgeneratoren https://www.srf.ch/news/wirtschaft/drohende-energiekrise-str... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_power) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_p...

fy20 4y ago

How exactly will rolling blackouts work when the grid spans many countries? What's to stop Germany saying they will pay more to keep some industry running if Poland turns off electricity to some homes?

nopinkglasses 4y ago

Before we all congratulate Switzerland on their great planning, here is a counter-point article from 3 days ago painting a very different picture. The link to the article in question: https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/09/23/en-suisse-l-angoisse-energetique-tourne-a-la-crise-de-nerfs_6142799_3210.html https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2022/09/23/en-s... With a copy of the text (in French) as it's behind a paywall. Deepl should do a decent enough job to translate it to English. INTERNATIONAL En Suisse, l’angoisse énergétique tourne à la crise de nerfs Dépendant de ses voisins allemand et français pour assurer une partie de son approvisionnement électrique en hiver, le petit pays alpin découvre, mais un peu tard, qu’il n’a pas assez investi dans les énergies renouvelables. Par Serge Enderlin (Genève, correspondance) LETTRE DE GENÈVE Felix Suhner est le patron de l’hôtel-restaurant Bad Bubendorf dans la localité homonyme, un village à une vingtaine de kilomètres au sud de Bâle. De lui, on peut dire qu’il a à la fois la tête sur les épaules et pas froid aux yeux. Depuis la semaine dernière, il n’ajoute rien moins que 5 % à toutes les additions. Le motif ? Une « contribution aux frais d’énergie », en forte augmentation dans la Confédération suisse comme partout ailleurs en Europe. Dans un pays où il n’est pas rare qu’un simple café coûte près de 5 euros dans des endroits parfaitement anodins, cette hausse inédite n’est pas passée inaperçue. Conscient de la moue de ses clients, Felix Suhner plaide la transparence : « J’indique clairement et systématiquement cette charge séparément sur chaque quittance. Sans cela, je ne pourrais pas rester rentable. » L’association suisse des restaurateurs, GastroSuisse, a pris une position très helvétique : elle n’encourage pas la démarche, mais ne la condamne pas non plus. L’anecdote est en tout cas révélatrice du climat délétère qui s’est installé en Suisse depuis deux mois, où la peur de manquer d’énergie tourne à l’obsession. Lenteurs helvétiques Le pays alpin pourrait en effet vivre cet hiver ses premières coupures de courant depuis la seconde guerre mondiale. Une perspective qui crispe la classe politique et le gouvernement fédéral, contraint d’affronter une seconde crise majeure après celle liée au Covid-19 au cours de laquelle il n’avait guère brillé. « Quand la pandémie a surgi, l’Office fédéral de la santé [le ministère] fut d’abord incapable d’estimer le nombre de cas : les données, tardives et incomplètes, étaient parfois communiquées… par fax. Rebelote avec la crise électrique annoncée : le gestionnaire du réseau, Swissgrid, publie les chiffres de consommation globale avec plusieurs mois de décalage ! », dénonce un éditorialiste. De fait, il est impossible pour les ménages et les entreprises suisses de connaître avec précision leur consommation de courant en temps réel. Pour cela, il aurait fallu pouvoir compter sur des compteurs intelligents, type Linky, mais « la Suisse, véritable tiers-monde numérique, ne les a pas installés ». La Confédération ne connaît donc pas la consommation d’électricité en juin dernier en Suisse ; elle ne dispose de données fiables que jusqu’en mai. Or, ce n’est que sur la base de chiffres actuels que l’on peut décider si les efforts d’économies entrepris sont suffisants ou si des restrictions, des interdictions ou, dans le pire des cas, des contingentements sont nécessaires. La situation est encore pire pour la consommation de gaz : Berne ne reçoit les données qu’une fois par an. « S’il fait froid cet hiver, ce sera très serré », a confirmé, mercredi 21 septembre, Bastian Schwark dans le Neue Zürcher Zeitung. L’homme a été nommé manageur de la crise énergétique par la Confédération. Et que fait le gouvernement pour anticiper la pénurie annoncée ? Comme durant la pandémie, il met sur pied une task force, dont le rôle consistera d’abord à consulter les cantons, fédéralisme oblige. Ce mécanisme hautement démocratique, qui est l’une des forces de la Suisse (où citoyens et collectivités publiques sont écoutés en permanence), devient un lourd handicap quand les nuages s’amoncellent et qu’il faut réagir vite. La Suisse, dit le proverbe, n’est pas taillée pour le gros temps. Comment en est-on arrivé là dans un pays dont les deux tiers du territoire sont recouverts de montagnes, qui abritent plusieurs dizaines de gros barrages et des réseaux d’adduction d’eau vertigineux pour alimenter les lacs de retenue en altitude ? D’abord, l’hydroélectricité ne couvre que la moitié des besoins. Ensuite, la Suisse ne compte plus qu’une poignée de réacteurs nucléaires depuis qu’elle a décidé de quitter l’atome au lendemain de l’accident de Fukushima, en 2011 – même s’il est désormais question, comme en Allemagne, de « sortir de la sortie du nucléaire ». Enfin, elle n’a jamais su, ou pu, prendre le virage des énergies renouvelables, notamment en raison du droit d’opposition des citoyens, favorisé par la démocratie directe. A titre de comparaison, on ne dénombre qu’une quarantaine d’éoliennes sur le territoire suisse contre près de 3 000 en Autriche, pays à la topographie et à la population presque identiques. Pour pallier ces déficiences, Berne avait toujours pu compter sur ses voisins français et allemand en important de l’électricité pendant la saison froide et les pics de consommation. Les centrales nucléaires de l’Hexagone, les dizaines de milliers d’éoliennes et les centrales à gaz allemandes fournissaient en courant excédentaire ce qui faisait défaut dans la production suisse. Mais, pour la première fois, il n’est pas certain que la France et l’Allemagne disposent d’excédents ces prochains mois. Côté français, le parc nucléaire est en difficulté. Et côté allemand, l’incertitude sur les livraisons du russe Gazprom annonce une saison froide, où toutes les capacités disponibles seront réservées en priorité à la consommation nationale. Pour préparer la population suisse à l’hiver de tous les dangers, le Conseil fédéral s’en remettra, comme souvent, au bon sens de ses citoyens. Qui devront économiser l’énergie, quitte à être infantilisés. Fin août, le gouvernement a lancé une grande campagne de communication à 10 millions de francs suisses (10,5 millions d’euros). Pleines pages d’annonces dans la presse nationale, affiches dans les rues, numéro vert et un site, Stop-gaspillage, sur le thème « L’énergie est limitée. Ne la gaspillons pas. » Parmi les perles : « Le fait de s’habiller chaudement plutôt que de monter le chauffage est recommandé. » Ou encore : « Toute lumière allumée dans une pièce vide gaspille inutilement de l’énergie : il faut toujours penser à éteindre les lampes lorsqu’on quitte une pièce. » Lapalissades ridicules ? Sans doute, mais c’est aussi un moyen pour l’Etat de se dédouaner par avance des reproches qu’on ne manquera pas de lui adresser quand les factures des consommateurs exploseront. Fidèle au dogme libéral du pays, il n’interviendra pas pour les aider.