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I've been vegan for nearly a quarter century. Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever cre

I've been vegan for nearly a quarter century. Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever create unreasonable expectations by way of comparisons. I have only the faintest recollection of what a hamburger, or steak, or fried chicken tastes like but if my experience were more recent, then I would probably reject the vegetarian alternatives if they were positioned as comparable in the market. But I think fast-food places have few alternatives to this practice. Outside of the fast food world, it's easier because restaurants are at greater liberty to not be constrained by the typical ways that animal flesh is shaped and used. It's a shame, because occasionally, those who don't eat animal products end up in social situations where they have to eat at fast-food places and are often left eating nothing.

ianai 4y ago
As a vegan, agree. I once described benevolent bacon as “you’re not going to think ‘oh wow I totally just ate bacon’ but you might think ‘oh wow I don’t need bacon after that.” And it’s a recipe thing. Just need to get a little creative perhaps.
- ianai 4y ago
  Also when I made my own vegan bbq out of seitan (gluten) I can mix the smoke flavor right into the wheat flour mixture. It doesn’t take the 14-18 hours to coax smoke flavor into a bit of meat. Can dial it all right to whatever I want from the get go. But ultimately finding recipes that people want to eat without meat should be a better goal. Feels like a false premise.
solarkraft 4y ago
> But I think fast-food places have few alternatives to this practice Yup. Your practice is certainly a great one and it works for some things and gradual changes, but it probably won't work very well for people who are not very fond of change when they notice it, which is likely most of them.
cronix 4y ago
> Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever create unreasonable expectations by way of comparisons. I've always thought that was strange. Naming products they consume after the very things a lot of vegans are against. Like if a meat eater made something that looked like lettuce out of meat and called it a salad.
- tomcam 4y ago
  Love that analogy
soulofmischief 4y ago
Beyond Meat, for example, has the goal of reducing the ecological impact of meat consumption. It's not for seasoned vegan vets. It's for nascent, plant-curious folk who just need a little push in the right direction.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  The company's goal is to make money, full stop. The way to make money, is to tell a story about reduced ecological impact, which is (like any marketing pitch) heavily biased and short on unintended consequences or contradictory facts. It's an effective marketing plan, because so many people seem to a) believe it without much checking and b) want to believe it, that is, have a healthy conscious by "doing their part" about the environment.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    Do you know what a stopgap is? Yes, they want to make money. Yes, it's a great way to get people started on the journey to meat-free diets. What's your problem with that?
mancerayder 4y ago
Not a vegan here, but to bolster your point somewhat, there's this huge assortment of South Indian food that is completely meat-free, it's grain and plant based, and it is ancient cuisine that mastered being delicious. It has no pretense around fake chicken or fake this or that. It does contain a lot of ghee, so it isn't vegan, but my point remains. Once I was taken to a vegan sushi place, and I was given some sort of "vegan salmon roll" that was made with mango slices. It wasn't bad - but the fact that you said it was salmon, and it wasn't, is a turn-off. They'd be better off just saying, we're a vegan restaurant, here's our food to try, rather than calling it something fake. People don't like to play pretend, it feels odd, and it doesn't convert the non-vegans like myself.
- Klonoar 4y ago
  Speak for yourself. :) I’ve had the opposite experience. I’m not vegan, but my diet has trended that way lately - and I’m totally fine and prefer when restaurants liken foods to salmon/tuna/etc. I want the point of comparison.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  > South Indian food that is completely meat-free Indeed, I am a meat lover but most of my South Indian meals during the week are meat-free. Our family historically and usually only eats meat on the weekends because meat used to be expensive back in the day in the old country.
- tomcam 4y ago
  South Indian cuisine is da bomb. Here in the PNW it's picking up steam and I like that trend very much. Stout patriot here, but American cuisine is loathsome. Indian, French, Israel, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Szehchuan, Canton, so many cultures do so much better that the good old US of A it's embarrassing. My Chinese wife finds this bemusing and jokes that I was a Szechuan farmer in another life.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  South Indian cuisine (to my knowledge) does not contain much Ghee. North Indian cuisine is the one that leans heavily on the Ghee. South Indian dishes would be Dosas, Uttapam, Idli, Sambar, Vada. Most of it is vegan, if it's vegetarian.
outime 4y ago
I was going to post a similar comment to yours. I'm not vegetarian/vegan but I've been very keen on testing alternatives to meat and dairy and I completely agree with your statement: >Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever create unreasonable expectations by way of comparisons. Look, I have eaten some patties which were made of very tasty vegetarian/vegan combinations (lentils, beans, carrots, etc) and I do enjoy these a lot. Now if you call them a replacement for meat patties it's just not gonna work out. Even the ones that really try hard to imitate meat just don't cut it in my opinion (plus all the processing and ingredients they use to imitate meat is worrying to me). Are they bad? No they aren't, they're delicious and I can take them anyday as long as they're somewhat healthy and nutritious but please don't call them "fake meat", they're not and they must not be marketed that way because it'll make people reject them, which is probably part of the failure we're seeing now.
gorbypark 4y ago
I’ve been a vegetarian for similar length of time (30 years give or take) and have also always wondered why fast food places only seem to do “fake meat”. My local Subway did a trial of falafels and it was amazing. After about 6 months they went back to the (imo) gross soy protein veggie pattie’s. Anyways, I always thought most fast food places could basically replace their meat with falafel’s and 80% of vegetarians would love it, but none seem to have ever done it. I’m sure they do focus groups and have figured out the fake stuff sells better, but I think with a bit of marketing about it not being “fake” it could do as well, if not better, than the imitation meat stuff.
- ianai 4y ago
  Agree. Falafel is delicious and fits perfect in so many places. Shame we can’t easily get a falafel marinara sandwich, etc.
oezi 4y ago
I think you do have a good point but want to provide a small counter argument: The alternative meat offerings are providing food in a package which is easier to turn in a dish than other vegetarian / vegan ingredients. You get lots of things that can just be fried in a pan: fake meat balls, fake schnitzel, fake chicken nuggets, etc. These things don't need to taste like meat, they just need to taste good to succeed. The manufacturers are piggybacking on form factors and taste-signatures which have a name for consumers to recognize.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  I think you’re correct in fact, but have the wrong conclusion. I’m vegetarian and my partner (who I live with) is not. Those meat-fakes and vegetarian chicken nuggets and shit are sad. They just don’t taste as good as the originals. If you take a could-be-vegetarian person and say “it’s easy to try out being vegetarian, just swap meat for fake meat” then you’ll disappoint them. It’s just worse and they won’t stick with it. Those products are for people who are committed to being vegetarian but haven’t yet discovered new ways to eat or people catering to vegetarians who are meat eaters. I’ve been to friends house where someone made a meat dish and made me a few fake-meat nuggets to be nice. It was a kind gesture. “Real” vegetarian don’t eat like that though, they find recipes designed to be enjoyed as is. If you’re trying to go vegetarian, eat Indian or éthiopien food. Explore real Mediterranean food. Don’t try to make steak and potatoes vegetarian. Yogurts or smoothies are good snacks. Etc. Disclaimer: I love a good hamburger and fake hamburger meat I’ll tolerate. If you’re American you may not want to give up burgers entirely.

ianai 4y ago

As a vegan, agree. I once described benevolent bacon as “you’re not going to think ‘oh wow I totally just ate bacon’ but you might think ‘oh wow I don’t need bacon after that.” And it’s a recipe thing. Just need to get a little creative perhaps.

ianai 4y ago
Also when I made my own vegan bbq out of seitan (gluten) I can mix the smoke flavor right into the wheat flour mixture. It doesn’t take the 14-18 hours to coax smoke flavor into a bit of meat. Can dial it all right to whatever I want from the get go. But ultimately finding recipes that people want to eat without meat should be a better goal. Feels like a false premise.

solarkraft 4y ago

> But I think fast-food places have few alternatives to this practice Yup. Your practice is certainly a great one and it works for some things and gradual changes, but it probably won't work very well for people who are not very fond of change when they notice it, which is likely most of them.

cronix 4y ago

> Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever create unreasonable expectations by way of comparisons. I've always thought that was strange. Naming products they consume after the very things a lot of vegans are against. Like if a meat eater made something that looked like lettuce out of meat and called it a salad.

tomcam 4y ago
Love that analogy

soulofmischief 4y ago

Beyond Meat, for example, has the goal of reducing the ecological impact of meat consumption. It's not for seasoned vegan vets. It's for nascent, plant-curious folk who just need a little push in the right direction.

listenallyall 4y ago
The company's goal is to make money, full stop. The way to make money, is to tell a story about reduced ecological impact, which is (like any marketing pitch) heavily biased and short on unintended consequences or contradictory facts. It's an effective marketing plan, because so many people seem to a) believe it without much checking and b) want to believe it, that is, have a healthy conscious by "doing their part" about the environment.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  Do you know what a stopgap is? Yes, they want to make money. Yes, it's a great way to get people started on the journey to meat-free diets. What's your problem with that?

mancerayder 4y ago

Not a vegan here, but to bolster your point somewhat, there's this huge assortment of South Indian food that is completely meat-free, it's grain and plant based, and it is ancient cuisine that mastered being delicious. It has no pretense around fake chicken or fake this or that. It does contain a lot of ghee, so it isn't vegan, but my point remains. Once I was taken to a vegan sushi place, and I was given some sort of "vegan salmon roll" that was made with mango slices. It wasn't bad - but the fact that you said it was salmon, and it wasn't, is a turn-off. They'd be better off just saying, we're a vegan restaurant, here's our food to try, rather than calling it something fake. People don't like to play pretend, it feels odd, and it doesn't convert the non-vegans like myself.

Klonoar 4y ago
Speak for yourself. :) I’ve had the opposite experience. I’m not vegan, but my diet has trended that way lately - and I’m totally fine and prefer when restaurants liken foods to salmon/tuna/etc. I want the point of comparison.
cercatrova 4y ago
> South Indian food that is completely meat-free Indeed, I am a meat lover but most of my South Indian meals during the week are meat-free. Our family historically and usually only eats meat on the weekends because meat used to be expensive back in the day in the old country.
tomcam 4y ago
South Indian cuisine is da bomb. Here in the PNW it's picking up steam and I like that trend very much. Stout patriot here, but American cuisine is loathsome. Indian, French, Israel, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Szehchuan, Canton, so many cultures do so much better that the good old US of A it's embarrassing. My Chinese wife finds this bemusing and jokes that I was a Szechuan farmer in another life.
pcthrowaway 4y ago
South Indian cuisine (to my knowledge) does not contain much Ghee. North Indian cuisine is the one that leans heavily on the Ghee. South Indian dishes would be Dosas, Uttapam, Idli, Sambar, Vada. Most of it is vegan, if it's vegetarian.

outime 4y ago

I was going to post a similar comment to yours. I'm not vegetarian/vegan but I've been very keen on testing alternatives to meat and dairy and I completely agree with your statement: >Part of the problem is that deliberately positioning the fake meat products as, well, "fake meat" will forever create unreasonable expectations by way of comparisons. Look, I have eaten some patties which were made of very tasty vegetarian/vegan combinations (lentils, beans, carrots, etc) and I do enjoy these a lot. Now if you call them a replacement for meat patties it's just not gonna work out. Even the ones that really try hard to imitate meat just don't cut it in my opinion (plus all the processing and ingredients they use to imitate meat is worrying to me). Are they bad? No they aren't, they're delicious and I can take them anyday as long as they're somewhat healthy and nutritious but please don't call them "fake meat", they're not and they must not be marketed that way because it'll make people reject them, which is probably part of the failure we're seeing now.

gorbypark 4y ago

I’ve been a vegetarian for similar length of time (30 years give or take) and have also always wondered why fast food places only seem to do “fake meat”. My local Subway did a trial of falafels and it was amazing. After about 6 months they went back to the (imo) gross soy protein veggie pattie’s. Anyways, I always thought most fast food places could basically replace their meat with falafel’s and 80% of vegetarians would love it, but none seem to have ever done it. I’m sure they do focus groups and have figured out the fake stuff sells better, but I think with a bit of marketing about it not being “fake” it could do as well, if not better, than the imitation meat stuff.

ianai 4y ago
Agree. Falafel is delicious and fits perfect in so many places. Shame we can’t easily get a falafel marinara sandwich, etc.

oezi 4y ago

I think you do have a good point but want to provide a small counter argument: The alternative meat offerings are providing food in a package which is easier to turn in a dish than other vegetarian / vegan ingredients. You get lots of things that can just be fried in a pan: fake meat balls, fake schnitzel, fake chicken nuggets, etc. These things don't need to taste like meat, they just need to taste good to succeed. The manufacturers are piggybacking on form factors and taste-signatures which have a name for consumers to recognize.

vineyardmike 4y ago
I think you’re correct in fact, but have the wrong conclusion. I’m vegetarian and my partner (who I live with) is not. Those meat-fakes and vegetarian chicken nuggets and shit are sad. They just don’t taste as good as the originals. If you take a could-be-vegetarian person and say “it’s easy to try out being vegetarian, just swap meat for fake meat” then you’ll disappoint them. It’s just worse and they won’t stick with it. Those products are for people who are committed to being vegetarian but haven’t yet discovered new ways to eat or people catering to vegetarians who are meat eaters. I’ve been to friends house where someone made a meat dish and made me a few fake-meat nuggets to be nice. It was a kind gesture. “Real” vegetarian don’t eat like that though, they find recipes designed to be enjoyed as is. If you’re trying to go vegetarian, eat Indian or éthiopien food. Explore real Mediterranean food. Don’t try to make steak and potatoes vegetarian. Yogurts or smoothies are good snacks. Etc. Disclaimer: I love a good hamburger and fake hamburger meat I’ll tolerate. If you’re American you may not want to give up burgers entirely.