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So electric car owners need to just cover all the battery wear out of their own pockets? Wouldn't that make electric cars even more expensive since battery rep

So electric car owners need to just cover all the battery wear out of their own pockets? Wouldn't that make electric cars even more expensive since battery replacement will be needed more often?

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Batteries are lasting far longer than anticipated. Anecdotally, I have fast DC charged my 2018 Model S (100kw pack) for the majority of the 100k miles I’ve put on the car, and only have 7% battery degradation. Others are seeing similar longevity well into hundreds of thousands of miles. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32758881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32758881 https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-says-ev-batteries-will-last-15-years/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-sa...
- nightski 4y ago
  That doesn't really matter. If you own a resource, and I utilize it, are you going to let me do so without compensating you in some fashion? If so I'll take you up on that offer. I have no problems with encouraging people to charge at certain times. Using personal batteries for energy storage and draw without any compensation however seems to cross a line. Your argument seems to me like justifying petty theft because in the end it doesn't really affect the store owner.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    I think your position comes from a lack of understanding of energy markets and pricing mechanisms. Powerwall owners are paid roughly $2/kwh when called upon to support the grid in California. Compensation is absolutely available for discharging and charging at specific times. If you’ll charge me a fraction of the cost to charge off peak or when there are excess renewables on the grid, and you’ll pay a premium to pull that power back if the car is parked and I can set a minimum state of charge to maintain, yeah, I’ll take that deal any day. I’ll come out ahead in almost all cases based on EV battery longevity.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nightski 4y ago
      If I am being compensated a premium $/kwh for each kwh drawn then we have no problem. Otherwise I'll just not offer my battery by disconnecting it when not charging.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Of course! No one is forcing you to, these programs are voluntary.
peter422 4y ago
Presumably the cost savings from charging when rates are the cheapest and potential incentives for feeding into the grid when necessarily will make up for that.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
The Tesla Model 3 SR ships with a battery expected to last ~750,000 km. If you had that vehicle, how much would you need to get paid to compensate for reducing that range by 1km? I'd accept 0.1 cents, how about you?
- kadoban 4y ago
  That seems low, that'd be $750 to reduce it to 0? But yeah there should be a way to choose a fair price or just let the market decide.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    But I'm never going to get 750,000 km out of a model 3, the suspension or other moving parts are going to give out first. So I can sell ~500,000 km worth of battery range without losing any actual range.

So electric car owners need to just cover all the battery wear out of their own pockets? Wouldn't that make electric cars even more expensive since battery replacement will be needed more often?

toomuchtodo 4y ago

Batteries are lasting far longer than anticipated. Anecdotally, I have fast DC charged my 2018 Model S (100kw pack) for the majority of the 100k miles I’ve put on the car, and only have 7% battery degradation. Others are seeing similar longevity well into hundreds of thousands of miles. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32758881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32758881 https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric... https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-says-ev-batteries-will-last-15-years/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/29/tesla-founder-ex-cto-sa...

nightski 4y ago
That doesn't really matter. If you own a resource, and I utilize it, are you going to let me do so without compensating you in some fashion? If so I'll take you up on that offer. I have no problems with encouraging people to charge at certain times. Using personal batteries for energy storage and draw without any compensation however seems to cross a line. Your argument seems to me like justifying petty theft because in the end it doesn't really affect the store owner.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I think your position comes from a lack of understanding of energy markets and pricing mechanisms. Powerwall owners are paid roughly $2/kwh when called upon to support the grid in California. Compensation is absolutely available for discharging and charging at specific times. If you’ll charge me a fraction of the cost to charge off peak or when there are excess renewables on the grid, and you’ll pay a premium to pull that power back if the car is parked and I can set a minimum state of charge to maintain, yeah, I’ll take that deal any day. I’ll come out ahead in almost all cases based on EV battery longevity.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nightski 4y ago
    If I am being compensated a premium $/kwh for each kwh drawn then we have no problem. Otherwise I'll just not offer my battery by disconnecting it when not charging.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Of course! No one is forcing you to, these programs are voluntary.

peter422 4y ago

Presumably the cost savings from charging when rates are the cheapest and potential incentives for feeding into the grid when necessarily will make up for that.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

The Tesla Model 3 SR ships with a battery expected to last ~750,000 km. If you had that vehicle, how much would you need to get paid to compensate for reducing that range by 1km? I'd accept 0.1 cents, how about you?

kadoban 4y ago
That seems low, that'd be $750 to reduce it to 0? But yeah there should be a way to choose a fair price or just let the market decide.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  But I'm never going to get 750,000 km out of a model 3, the suspension or other moving parts are going to give out first. So I can sell ~500,000 km worth of battery range without losing any actual range.