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> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End e

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.

neilalexander 4y ago
Meta own the proprietary code running at either end of the encrypted pipe. Of course they can.
- omgomgomgomg 4y ago
  They can decrypt if someone enables backups, so I see no reason they could not read them indeed. Signal might be the only app unable to read, but even that, I would not trust.
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    How would you propose Signal -- or any app for that matter that provides end to end encryption -- encrypt the messages in the first place if they don't have access to the plaintext at some point?
spoiler 4y ago
So you're nit-picking over the phrasing of the sentence, but should instead focus on the spirit/meaning behind it. It's illustrated in their example below that they if you say you're having a baby, meta can send some type of distilled ad-keywords to its servers (eg `[mother, baby]` if it knows the user is a woman based on their name/profile, but probably more sophisticated than that). The message you sent is still technically end-to-end encrypted, though,
- jtbayly 4y ago
  I addressed this just below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32951417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32951417
piva00 4y ago
It means that for strictly one receiver end-to-end encryption. When it's touted as a feature without explicitly stating that "all messages are sent only e2e encrypted and only to your receiver" we can't assume only the receiver is getting the message, it might be E2E encrypted for all traffic, between people using their own keys and nothing stops Meta from sending a different encrypted payload to their own servers with a key they have access to. Facebook loves to use newspeak, wouldn't surprise me if they applied newspeak to what "end-to-end encryption" means.
- rob74 4y ago
  So it's end-to-end encrypted, but your data is sent to some "ends" you didn't think it would be sent to? Well, if that's not a good reason to end your usage of WhatsApp, then I don't know what is...
m0RRSIYB0Zq8MgL 4y ago
End-to-End means that it can't be read in the middle. It does not not mean it can't be read by proprietary clients on either end.
tom-thistime 4y ago
Oh, come on. It's called "end to end" but it isn't. Meta has to read them to provide the service. This is not a new revelation.
philsnow 4y ago
Until there are cybernetic implants, the "ends" are the app running on your phones, which they control. The quandary of what one allows to run on those implants sounds like a chilling sci-fi novel (chilling not because "but FAANG could read your thoughts!" but because people would absolutely still get them installed).
rr888 4y ago
End-to-End is about the networking, not the end points. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_encryption#Endpoint_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_encryption#Endpoint...
- pfortuny 4y ago
  That is the technical definition.
amelius 4y ago
Google can in theory read what is on your screen (assuming you use Android) regardless what app with what encryption you use.

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.

neilalexander 4y ago

Meta own the proprietary code running at either end of the encrypted pipe. Of course they can.

omgomgomgomg 4y ago
They can decrypt if someone enables backups, so I see no reason they could not read them indeed. Signal might be the only app unable to read, but even that, I would not trust.
- marcus0x62 4y ago
  How would you propose Signal -- or any app for that matter that provides end to end encryption -- encrypt the messages in the first place if they don't have access to the plaintext at some point?

spoiler 4y ago

So you're nit-picking over the phrasing of the sentence, but should instead focus on the spirit/meaning behind it. It's illustrated in their example below that they if you say you're having a baby, meta can send some type of distilled ad-keywords to its servers (eg `[mother, baby]` if it knows the user is a woman based on their name/profile, but probably more sophisticated than that). The message you sent is still technically end-to-end encrypted, though,

jtbayly 4y ago
I addressed this just below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32951417 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32951417

piva00 4y ago

It means that for strictly one receiver end-to-end encryption. When it's touted as a feature without explicitly stating that "all messages are sent only e2e encrypted and only to your receiver" we can't assume only the receiver is getting the message, it might be E2E encrypted for all traffic, between people using their own keys and nothing stops Meta from sending a different encrypted payload to their own servers with a key they have access to. Facebook loves to use newspeak, wouldn't surprise me if they applied newspeak to what "end-to-end encryption" means.

rob74 4y ago
So it's end-to-end encrypted, but your data is sent to some "ends" you didn't think it would be sent to? Well, if that's not a good reason to end your usage of WhatsApp, then I don't know what is...

m0RRSIYB0Zq8MgL 4y ago

End-to-End means that it can't be read in the middle. It does not not mean it can't be read by proprietary clients on either end.

tom-thistime 4y ago

Oh, come on. It's called "end to end" but it isn't. Meta has to read them to provide the service. This is not a new revelation.

philsnow 4y ago

Until there are cybernetic implants, the "ends" are the app running on your phones, which they control. The quandary of what one allows to run on those implants sounds like a chilling sci-fi novel (chilling not because "but FAANG could read your thoughts!" but because people would absolutely still get them installed).

rr888 4y ago

End-to-End is about the networking, not the end points. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_encryption#Endpoint_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_encryption#Endpoint...

pfortuny 4y ago
That is the technical definition.

amelius 4y ago

Google can in theory read what is on your screen (assuming you use Android) regardless what app with what encryption you use.