6 ms·

The Subcontrabassoon Project

132 points by fortran77 4y ago

bewaretheirs 4y ago
Looks like it's been built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agInwu6Ojdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agInwu6Ojdg (makes sounds, but keywork isn't there yet).
- jay-anderson 4y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3QaSqraPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3QaSqraPY - He has a nice little edited demo uploaded as well. I hope he's able to get the keywork going soon.
  - madcbsnist 4y ago
    If you enjoyed that one, you may also like this recording (subcontrabassoon comes in at 0:26). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSh34z1SrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSh34z1SrI
theunamedguy 4y ago
We live in an age where combining music, software, and signal processing can let you do some amazing things. I can imagine a high-fidelity simulation of this instrument's timbre before it's ever built, by using the mechanical CAD model to produce an acoustic model, and then modeling the response of the wood to an incident acoustic wave.
- Red_Angel-Fox 4y ago
  It's already sounded it's first notes a while ago. Sorry to spoil the fun.
elevaet 4y ago
> The planned sounding range of the subcontrabassoon is from A−1 (13.75 Hz) to (at least) F2
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  The thought of a note having a frequency of just a few Hertz reminded me of an old video I watched, which explained that all tones can be thought of as rhythms (and chords can be thought of as polyrhythms): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc
  - bambax 4y ago
    Great video, thanks!
- madcbsnist 4y ago
  Good news is that since I'm been experimenting with the incomplete prototype, I've been able to play up to at least Eb3, and will likely get F3 on the redesigned 2nd prototype. That gives it roughly the same range as the bassoon (just two octaves lower), all without the need for a dedicated altissimo vent.
  - elevaet 4y ago
    Very cool, congratulations! Does it take a lot of breath to play those lower notes?
daviddaviddavid 4y ago
This reminded me of a very hip recording of Anthony Braxton playing Donna Lee on contrabass clarinet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
Other extreme bass instruments: - octobasse: https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE - subcontrabass saxophone: https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0 https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0 - subcontrabass flute: https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw - subcontrabass recorder: https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE - subcontrabass tuba: https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4 https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4
- mrob 4y ago
  Most extreme of all: -Broadwalk Hall Auditorium Organ 64-foot diaphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc
exmadscientist 4y ago
Not to be confused with the subcontrabass flute, which can be heard (for example) in Justin Bell's soundtrack for The Outer Worlds [0] [1]. [0]: https://twitter.com/sonic_presence/status/1196491729022509060 https://twitter.com/sonic_presence/status/119649172902250906... [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/theouterworlds/comments/ilvt6x/got_to_play_a_bass_flute_today_its_impossible_to/g3y49wp/ https://old.reddit.com/r/theouterworlds/comments/ilvt6x/got_...
- dhosek 4y ago
  I remember going to a flute event in Chicago back around 2000 and in the exhibit hall, there was a bass flute¹ that a few people picked up and couldn’t get a sound out of—later, I was on the other side of the room and someone (who likely had previous experience with the bass flute) picked it up and played a lyrical line on it and it was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard.² ⸻ 1. While called a bass flute, strictly speaking a bass flute should be called a tenor flute as it sounds a fifth below the alto flute which sounds a fourth below the concert flute. The piccolo plays an octave above the concert flute and there are intermediate flutes pitched a fifth above the concert flute and also a whole tone above it. 2. At the time, a bass flute seemed an improbably expensive instrument that I could never afford to buy. It occurs to me that now that I’m older and more financially secure, I could conceivably afford to buy one and learn to play it.
  - tomcam 4y ago
    I got a supposedly used Jupiter for $1500 on eBay a few years ago, so yeah! Worth it.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      That's a lot of money, but it's well within the range of what people pay for high quality instruments
      - dhosek 4y ago
        That’s less than half the price of a new bass flute, so not really that much money. And a good double bass (the stringed version) would be $10,000 so $1500 is kind of a bargain in comparison.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jboggan 4y ago
I went into college as a bassoon performance major and came out as a math major. This is so incredibly amazing to me and is one of the most serendipitous posts I've ever seen on HN.
apendleton 4y ago
It looks from the diagrams like the plan once the keywork is done is to have some of the keys operate what look to me to essentially be bicycle cables (Bowden cables), which for some reason I find totally delightful.
- madcbsnist 4y ago
  The original plan was to use Bowden cables for some of the low register notes, but I've since redesigned those to use more robust and stable traditional linkages. Bowden cable linkages work well on some woodwinds, specifically those made by Wolf or Eppelsheim. However, on those instruments they're used for harmonic vents; tiny keys that are normally held shut by spring action, where the cable linkage only needs to open the key slightly, and which often need to be placed in positions where traditional keywork would be impossible (like on the bocal). For low register notes, the holes are large and on the main bore, most keys are open by default and must be closed a precise amount for proper sealing, and even those that are closed by default need to be opened a precise amount for proper intonation. So in the end I believe Bowden connections are unnecessary for the current design (unless I decide to add an altissimo vent to the bocal).
  - apendleton 4y ago
    Makes sense, thanks for the clarification!
Loic 4y ago
OP: your username brought me a big smile this morning. Yes it is totally out of topic, but thank you.
techdragon 4y ago
This kind of sound is why I don't think I'll ever be rid of the desire to build a calliope, or more technically a calliaphone, but not being a musicologist, I'm not sure if that also technically makes it a pipe organ. A special few instruments can reach down the frequency scale and just whack you with a note so low it feels like a force of nature is coming out of the instrument. And I'm always delighted whenever I come across a new one.
zwieback 4y ago
That guy who got into a fistfight with Bach: bassoon player. Just imagine what would have happened if he was a subcontrabassionist.
madcbsnist 4y ago
Thanks so much for sharing my project. If any of you have questions, I'm happy to do my best to answer them.

132 points by fortran77 4y ago

Looks like it's been built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agInwu6Ojdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agInwu6Ojdg (makes sounds, but keywork isn't there yet).

jay-anderson 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3QaSqraPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3QaSqraPY - He has a nice little edited demo uploaded as well. I hope he's able to get the keywork going soon.
- madcbsnist 4y ago
  If you enjoyed that one, you may also like this recording (subcontrabassoon comes in at 0:26). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSh34z1SrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSh34z1SrI

theunamedguy 4y ago

We live in an age where combining music, software, and signal processing can let you do some amazing things. I can imagine a high-fidelity simulation of this instrument's timbre before it's ever built, by using the mechanical CAD model to produce an acoustic model, and then modeling the response of the wood to an incident acoustic wave.

Red_Angel-Fox 4y ago
It's already sounded it's first notes a while ago. Sorry to spoil the fun.

elevaet 4y ago

> The planned sounding range of the subcontrabassoon is from A−1 (13.75 Hz) to (at least) F2

dane-pgp 4y ago
The thought of a note having a frequency of just a few Hertz reminded me of an old video I watched, which explained that all tones can be thought of as rhythms (and chords can be thought of as polyrhythms): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gCJHNBEdoc
- bambax 4y ago
  Great video, thanks!
madcbsnist 4y ago
Good news is that since I'm been experimenting with the incomplete prototype, I've been able to play up to at least Eb3, and will likely get F3 on the redesigned 2nd prototype. That gives it roughly the same range as the bassoon (just two octaves lower), all without the need for a dedicated altissimo vent.
- elevaet 4y ago
  Very cool, congratulations! Does it take a lot of breath to play those lower notes?

daviddaviddavid 4y ago

This reminded me of a very hip recording of Anthony Braxton playing Donna Lee on contrabass clarinet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qL_hkYEf1M

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

Other extreme bass instruments: - octobasse: https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE https://youtu.be/12X-i9YHzmE - subcontrabass saxophone: https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0 https://youtu.be/kgt2m9Q7Kz0 - subcontrabass flute: https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw https://youtu.be/dA70S6NJsCw - subcontrabass recorder: https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE https://youtu.be/U3CsmeKU2vE - subcontrabass tuba: https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4 https://youtu.be/OK1GDkvFdL4

mrob 4y ago
Most extreme of all: -Broadwalk Hall Auditorium Organ 64-foot diaphone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAj0mMWHzxc

exmadscientist 4y ago

Not to be confused with the subcontrabass flute, which can be heard (for example) in Justin Bell's soundtrack for The Outer Worlds [0] [1]. [0]: https://twitter.com/sonic_presence/status/1196491729022509060 https://twitter.com/sonic_presence/status/119649172902250906... [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/theouterworlds/comments/ilvt6x/got_to_play_a_bass_flute_today_its_impossible_to/g3y49wp/ https://old.reddit.com/r/theouterworlds/comments/ilvt6x/got_...

dhosek 4y ago
I remember going to a flute event in Chicago back around 2000 and in the exhibit hall, there was a bass flute¹ that a few people picked up and couldn’t get a sound out of—later, I was on the other side of the room and someone (who likely had previous experience with the bass flute) picked it up and played a lyrical line on it and it was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard.² ⸻ 1. While called a bass flute, strictly speaking a bass flute should be called a tenor flute as it sounds a fifth below the alto flute which sounds a fourth below the concert flute. The piccolo plays an octave above the concert flute and there are intermediate flutes pitched a fifth above the concert flute and also a whole tone above it. 2. At the time, a bass flute seemed an improbably expensive instrument that I could never afford to buy. It occurs to me that now that I’m older and more financially secure, I could conceivably afford to buy one and learn to play it.
- tomcam 4y ago
  I got a supposedly used Jupiter for $1500 on eBay a few years ago, so yeah! Worth it.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    That's a lot of money, but it's well within the range of what people pay for high quality instruments
    - dhosek 4y ago
      That’s less than half the price of a new bass flute, so not really that much money. And a good double bass (the stringed version) would be $10,000 so $1500 is kind of a bargain in comparison.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jboggan 4y ago

I went into college as a bassoon performance major and came out as a math major. This is so incredibly amazing to me and is one of the most serendipitous posts I've ever seen on HN.

apendleton 4y ago

It looks from the diagrams like the plan once the keywork is done is to have some of the keys operate what look to me to essentially be bicycle cables (Bowden cables), which for some reason I find totally delightful.

madcbsnist 4y ago
The original plan was to use Bowden cables for some of the low register notes, but I've since redesigned those to use more robust and stable traditional linkages. Bowden cable linkages work well on some woodwinds, specifically those made by Wolf or Eppelsheim. However, on those instruments they're used for harmonic vents; tiny keys that are normally held shut by spring action, where the cable linkage only needs to open the key slightly, and which often need to be placed in positions where traditional keywork would be impossible (like on the bocal). For low register notes, the holes are large and on the main bore, most keys are open by default and must be closed a precise amount for proper sealing, and even those that are closed by default need to be opened a precise amount for proper intonation. So in the end I believe Bowden connections are unnecessary for the current design (unless I decide to add an altissimo vent to the bocal).
- apendleton 4y ago
  Makes sense, thanks for the clarification!

Loic 4y ago

OP: your username brought me a big smile this morning. Yes it is totally out of topic, but thank you.

techdragon 4y ago

This kind of sound is why I don't think I'll ever be rid of the desire to build a calliope, or more technically a calliaphone, but not being a musicologist, I'm not sure if that also technically makes it a pipe organ. A special few instruments can reach down the frequency scale and just whack you with a note so low it feels like a force of nature is coming out of the instrument. And I'm always delighted whenever I come across a new one.

zwieback 4y ago

That guy who got into a fistfight with Bach: bassoon player. Just imagine what would have happened if he was a subcontrabassionist.

madcbsnist 4y ago

Thanks so much for sharing my project. If any of you have questions, I'm happy to do my best to answer them.