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After seeing how the ATF operates entirely autonomously to nearly eliminate the right to bear arms through increasingly more unnecessarily complex and ridiculou

After seeing how the ATF operates entirely autonomously to nearly eliminate the right to bear arms through increasingly more unnecessarily complex and ridiculous "rules" that make you felon for things that were previously (and should still be) totally legal, I have zero interest in giving executive agencies autonomy to make laws. And it doesn't matter that the rules can be ruled as ineffective by a high court, because it takes ages to get through the whole court process. So in the time that the court took ruling something totally unconstitutional, people's rights are squandered (especially without any democratic consensus to enact it), and the people that enacted and enforced the later-deemed-unconstitutional rulings face zero repercussions. And guess what? They then move on to the next unconstitutional ruling that squanders as many rights as possible for as long as possible.

klabb3 4y ago
> unnecessarily complex and ridiculous "rules" that make you felon for things that were previously (and should still be) totally legal Not going into the US-centric gun debate and assuming that guns are simply tools, isn't it reasonable that gun owners need to monitor the regulations? If you operate heavy machinery or run a chemical lab, I'd expect you to keep a close eye on upcoming legislation and rules. I'd not be surprised if a food truck operator would need to keep track of more rules than gun owners.
- tekknik 4y ago
  Both of these examples are enterprises, not something a private citizen does. I would also hesitate to say that you can become a felon overnight with either of these scenarios (remember all of the rights lost, including gun ownership, by being labeled a felon). And a majority of businesses shield themselves such that if they do violate the law it’s the business itself penalized, not the workers. In the case of gun ownership it’s the individual being penalized. To make your example equivalent, imagine if the food truck or some piece of equipment in that truck was suddenly made illegal. And if you’re in possession of it you are now a felon. Yesterday (literally) it was legal and you were not given advanced notice anymore than waking up this morning and receiving notice. If heavy machinery and food industries operated this way there would be much less competition and likely no food trucks at all
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
    Food trucks are under the purview of fda and the local and state authorities of the jurisdiction they do business in. Health and fire inspectors do audit these locations or trucks in the event of an entirely self contained food truck. These businesses are still subject to the whims of these oversight bodies and may be arbitrarily shut down overnight. Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to. To bring this full circle, gun owners are de facto legally assumed to be reasonable and responsible owners that abide the law and diligently pay attention to the changes of laws. If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon; well that’s on you. Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances.
    - tekknik 4y ago
      > Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. Please explain how, exactly. > I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to. Operating one on the side with some in-laws, I'm quite well aware of the legislation. Yet I'm still not aware of a single instance where a food truck operator became a felon overnight because they had a "high capacity grill". In what cases can a food truck operator become a felon when their activities that made them a felon were legal the literal day before? > If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon Why is overnight in quotes? Do you not believe I was using the correct definition of literally? > Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. I think you'll find that a great majority of us are responsible, that's why we know about these laws and the ATF. I can't say the same for those that are pro gun control, they tend to be very ill informed on the subject and assume others are. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be responsible, we're saying they shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily remove rights from people because of who's politically in control of the ATF. If you take a step back and remove personal bias, every sane person in the US would agree. > If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances. You're clearly going on some rant here that I'm not sure where you're basing this argument from and it really shows your bias (which has no place on a forum of engineers and other technical people). The point being if this were laws being passed by congress, with months of advanced notice, nobody would be complaining. The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given.
NegativeLatency 4y ago
> eliminate the right to bear arms This is clearly not true as evidenced by the high rate of mass shootings in the US
renewedrebecca 4y ago
I’m sorry, but if you really think gun rights are nearly eliminated in the US, you’re delusional.
- seanw444 4y ago
  I didn't say they were completely eliminated. I'm saying that is the inevitable conclusion if they are allowed to continue on the track they're on.

klabb3 4y ago

> unnecessarily complex and ridiculous "rules" that make you felon for things that were previously (and should still be) totally legal Not going into the US-centric gun debate and assuming that guns are simply tools, isn't it reasonable that gun owners need to monitor the regulations? If you operate heavy machinery or run a chemical lab, I'd expect you to keep a close eye on upcoming legislation and rules. I'd not be surprised if a food truck operator would need to keep track of more rules than gun owners.

tekknik 4y ago
Both of these examples are enterprises, not something a private citizen does. I would also hesitate to say that you can become a felon overnight with either of these scenarios (remember all of the rights lost, including gun ownership, by being labeled a felon). And a majority of businesses shield themselves such that if they do violate the law it’s the business itself penalized, not the workers. In the case of gun ownership it’s the individual being penalized. To make your example equivalent, imagine if the food truck or some piece of equipment in that truck was suddenly made illegal. And if you’re in possession of it you are now a felon. Yesterday (literally) it was legal and you were not given advanced notice anymore than waking up this morning and receiving notice. If heavy machinery and food industries operated this way there would be much less competition and likely no food trucks at all
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  Food trucks are under the purview of fda and the local and state authorities of the jurisdiction they do business in. Health and fire inspectors do audit these locations or trucks in the event of an entirely self contained food truck. These businesses are still subject to the whims of these oversight bodies and may be arbitrarily shut down overnight. Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to. To bring this full circle, gun owners are de facto legally assumed to be reasonable and responsible owners that abide the law and diligently pay attention to the changes of laws. If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon; well that’s on you. Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances.
  - tekknik 4y ago
    > Your comparison is factually incorrect on every count. Please explain how, exactly. > I do hope that you’re just ignorant of the mind boggling amount of legislation your average food truck is subject to. Operating one on the side with some in-laws, I'm quite well aware of the legislation. Yet I'm still not aware of a single instance where a food truck operator became a felon overnight because they had a "high capacity grill". In what cases can a food truck operator become a felon when their activities that made them a felon were legal the literal day before? > If you become a felon “overnight” because of an illegal weapon Why is overnight in quotes? Do you not believe I was using the correct definition of literally? > Being responsible sucks because it demands humility and accountability. I think you'll find that a great majority of us are responsible, that's why we know about these laws and the ATF. I can't say the same for those that are pro gun control, they tend to be very ill informed on the subject and assume others are. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be responsible, we're saying they shouldn't be allowed to arbitrarily remove rights from people because of who's politically in control of the ATF. If you take a step back and remove personal bias, every sane person in the US would agree. > If you’re neither capable of admitting your mistakes nor following the glacial pace of state/federal law making then you’ve no business owning tools capable of killing masses of people in seconds from hundreds of yards away. Great power, great responsibility. Lately some politicians have become tunnel visioned on the power part, I’d like to remind you that in order to maintain a lawful society we must be responsible lest the unwashed masses take Justice for themselves in whatever capacity they can. This is the compromise of a civilized society, you would be wise to learn more about why things are they way they are before you write up factually incorrect justification for your grievances. You're clearly going on some rant here that I'm not sure where you're basing this argument from and it really shows your bias (which has no place on a forum of engineers and other technical people). The point being if this were laws being passed by congress, with months of advanced notice, nobody would be complaining. The ATF can release a rule right now stating owning an AR-15 with a pistol grip is a felony, active at midnight and you best hope you pay attention to the few hours notice you've been given.

NegativeLatency 4y ago

> eliminate the right to bear arms This is clearly not true as evidenced by the high rate of mass shootings in the US

renewedrebecca 4y ago

I’m sorry, but if you really think gun rights are nearly eliminated in the US, you’re delusional.

seanw444 4y ago
I didn't say they were completely eliminated. I'm saying that is the inevitable conclusion if they are allowed to continue on the track they're on.