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The main reason behind Java's success has always been the community and it's ecosystem. Once you learn basics you literally can code very good things with ease

The main reason behind Java's success has always been the community and it's ecosystem. Once you learn basics you literally can code very good things with ease using a huge number of examples/solutions present on web. The user base kind of helps the developers find the fixes way too easily compared to any other language. I doubt it is ever going to lose it's popularity as Java is very good to accept good changes(although slowly). The best thing about java is it provides code stability and backward compatibility and this is the reason it will thrive even more.

adam_arthur 4y ago
Java can get the job done, but the language is certainly dated in a way that's impossible to fix without breaking changes. Similar to C++ getting replaced by go and rust everywhere, Java's time has gone. It's just running on momentum at this point. The JVM will likely continue on though
- qsort 4y ago
  Java is still 95%+ of the marketshare of the JVM. Also "C++ being replaced by go and rust everywhere" is very much hyperbolic. You are either wildly exaggerating or living in a bubble.
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. There's no value in using it for future projects other than a wider pool of developers to source from... a network effect that will diminish with time. Java is objectively dated in so many ways, it's not really defensible to say otherwise. Tons of unnecessarily verbose and boilerplate aspects of the language.
    - toxik 4y ago
      That is a very bold claim from basically zero evidence, on both accounts but especially C++ being a zombie language.
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        Ok, well then provide a counterclaim. Ignoring network effects and existing libraries, which language feature of C++ makes it better than a Go or Rust for similar use cases? Which language features are more concise and easy to use? What objective traits of the language make it superior?
        TillE 4y ago
        You started with "C++ getting replaced by go and rust everywhere" (an enormous exaggeration), and now you want to argue about languages features. OK. C++ is in a state where it's good enough and slowly getting better. The enormous ecosystem, from libraries to game engines like Unreal, means it's not going anywhere for decades. New "greenfield" games are being written in C++ every day.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        "ecosystem" just like C before Java, yes. Not an argument
        scottLobster 4y ago
        Ignoring network effects and existing libraries is a good way to make an irrelevant argument. It would be like requiring the Marine Corps to train in BJJ and Kickboxing because that works best in the Octagon. Great, but the Marine Corp doesn't fight in the Octagon. In general, I'll take a somewhat mediocre tool where I can look up examples/libraries to do everything I need, with a large pool of competent developers to hire from, over an excellent tool that may or may not do everything I need at the level that I need, that relatively few people know how to use. Of course, standards can change. But Go and Rust have a long way to go to build the network effects/libaries/ecosystem equivalent to that enjoyed by c++. I'll let the enthusiasts figure that out while I build things that get deployed, I look forward to the day it's ready, lot of promising features in those languages. Thanks in advance!
        adam_arthur 4y ago
    - qsort 4y ago
      > C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. Obviously wrong, but sure, go on. > Java is objectively dated in so many ways, it's not really defensible to say otherwise. Tons of unnecessarily verbose and boilerplate aspects of the language. What Java are you talking about? It might have been true in the past, but modern versions of Java are just normal Algols. It's on par with C++, C# and Go, the other mainstream options you'd have for a project you'd write in Java. Sure, it's not as terse as Python, but neither is C++ or C# or Go.
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        Ok, provide the counter evidence then. Which aspects of C++ are superior to modern equivalents, ignoring ecosystem and network effects which aren't facets of the language.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        You made the claim. You should provide some evidence, not just demand that others do...
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        Rust is more memory safe, more concise, and pretty much just as fast. There, now you go?
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        >> C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. That was the claim. Between "Rust exists" and "the only reason C++ still exists is existing projects were written in it" there's still a fair amount of ground for you to cover. You said that Rust is more memory safe. Hard to argue. And more concise, about which I have no information. Those are good things. But, as I brought up elsewhere in this thread: Is Rust as easy to use in the embedded space? Is it available on as wide a variety of chips? Does Rust make it as easy to control memory alignment, for those who need it? Does Rust make it as easy to interface with libraries, many of which are written in C++? Memory safety is good. Conciseness is good. Those are not the only reasons one might choose a language.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      > C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. False. > There's no value in using it for future projects other than a wider pool of developers to source from Well, you know, that is value. And there's value in being in the same language as the libraries you use. And there's value in C++ in the embedded space. And there's value to being able to control memory alignment in the high performance space. And... If you're writing some generic web service, sure, there's no reason to write it in C++. Your statement was far too broad, though.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      C++ is still the choice for truly performance-critical applications, period.
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        Because of network effects, not because of the language itself. Thus dominance will fade over time. There are many modern languages that are more ergonomic and just as fast.
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        No, actually because of the language itself. What matters most in high-performance computing? The algorithm, sure. What's in second place? Memory alignment. Memory alignment determines whether or not I can use SIMD. It also determines how many cache misses I have. Can I fight that battle using Rust? Maybe. Is it as convenient as in C++? Is any other language? as convenient as C++?
        steveklabnik 4y ago
        Rust absolutely lets you control alignment, and use SIMD. I won’t claim to make a comparison to C++ here because I have never done that sort of work in it, but it is absolutely a thing.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        There are tons of modern languages that allow low level memory access, including Rust. Nobody chooses C++ due to it being more convenient than modern languages.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I can't really see Java's time being gone for large, enterprise-level fintech/banking. Payments, integration with other large-scale systems, etc. Multiple payments or finance departments in FAANGs are still running Java, for example.
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    You need to separate the language from the ecosystem. Yes, network effects will cause many languages to drag on in use, but that doesn't mean they're going to live in perpetuity. COBOL was used for a long time for various business backends... did that mean it was a great language that was going to be used in perpetuity? no. And I assume the majority of those don't exist anymore, despite existing as recently as the 2010s
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      I just think it's weird to say Java's time is gone when Java is still the language du jour in a major employment field of programming. Maybe Java's time is waning but I wouldn't call it gone. New payments/fintech startups and greenfield projects are still choosing Java. I don't know a significant field whose new companies are still going with COBOL from greenfield. Additionally, what is replacing Java in the finance space? Genuinely asking, because I have no idea, and can you point me to some companies using the stuff that's replacing Java for banking/finance/etc?
      - adam_arthur 4y ago
        Yes, there was a time that C was used for pretty much every app. That time has come and gone as higher level languages became more popular. So too will Java's. The language itself is objectively more verbose than many modern equivalents. Network effects and existing libraries aren't facets of the language and over time the gap will narrow
        PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        Can you please educate me on what are the languages and frameworks that enterprise-level finance and banking are going into in replace of Java? I'm good-faith asking. Additionally, "the gap will narrow" is not the same as "Java's time is over", which is the only thing I'm having an issue with. Over implies that the gap is already closed, but I don't think it is, and if I'm wrong I sincerely want to know about what the new language du jour of a major employment field is.
- ithrow 4y ago
  Many "modern" companies chose Java for the core of their backend servers, stripe, square, netflix to name a few.
- kaba0 4y ago
  C++ is definitely not replaced by Go, nor by Rust. C++ as well, but especially Java likely has multiple times as much projects than all the smaller languages summed. They are ain’t going anywhere anytime soonz

adam_arthur 4y ago

Java can get the job done, but the language is certainly dated in a way that's impossible to fix without breaking changes. Similar to C++ getting replaced by go and rust everywhere, Java's time has gone. It's just running on momentum at this point. The JVM will likely continue on though

qsort 4y ago
Java is still 95%+ of the marketshare of the JVM. Also "C++ being replaced by go and rust everywhere" is very much hyperbolic. You are either wildly exaggerating or living in a bubble.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. There's no value in using it for future projects other than a wider pool of developers to source from... a network effect that will diminish with time. Java is objectively dated in so many ways, it's not really defensible to say otherwise. Tons of unnecessarily verbose and boilerplate aspects of the language.
  - toxik 4y ago
    That is a very bold claim from basically zero evidence, on both accounts but especially C++ being a zombie language.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Ok, well then provide a counterclaim. Ignoring network effects and existing libraries, which language feature of C++ makes it better than a Go or Rust for similar use cases? Which language features are more concise and easy to use? What objective traits of the language make it superior?
      - TillE 4y ago
        You started with "C++ getting replaced by go and rust everywhere" (an enormous exaggeration), and now you want to argue about languages features. OK. C++ is in a state where it's good enough and slowly getting better. The enormous ecosystem, from libraries to game engines like Unreal, means it's not going anywhere for decades. New "greenfield" games are being written in C++ every day.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        "ecosystem" just like C before Java, yes. Not an argument
      - scottLobster 4y ago
        Ignoring network effects and existing libraries is a good way to make an irrelevant argument. It would be like requiring the Marine Corps to train in BJJ and Kickboxing because that works best in the Octagon. Great, but the Marine Corp doesn't fight in the Octagon. In general, I'll take a somewhat mediocre tool where I can look up examples/libraries to do everything I need, with a large pool of competent developers to hire from, over an excellent tool that may or may not do everything I need at the level that I need, that relatively few people know how to use. Of course, standards can change. But Go and Rust have a long way to go to build the network effects/libaries/ecosystem equivalent to that enjoyed by c++. I'll let the enthusiasts figure that out while I build things that get deployed, I look forward to the day it's ready, lot of promising features in those languages. Thanks in advance!
        adam_arthur 4y ago
  - qsort 4y ago
    > C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. Obviously wrong, but sure, go on. > Java is objectively dated in so many ways, it's not really defensible to say otherwise. Tons of unnecessarily verbose and boilerplate aspects of the language. What Java are you talking about? It might have been true in the past, but modern versions of Java are just normal Algols. It's on par with C++, C# and Go, the other mainstream options you'd have for a project you'd write in Java. Sure, it's not as terse as Python, but neither is C++ or C# or Go.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Ok, provide the counter evidence then. Which aspects of C++ are superior to modern equivalents, ignoring ecosystem and network effects which aren't facets of the language.
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        You made the claim. You should provide some evidence, not just demand that others do...
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        Rust is more memory safe, more concise, and pretty much just as fast. There, now you go?
        AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        >> C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. That was the claim. Between "Rust exists" and "the only reason C++ still exists is existing projects were written in it" there's still a fair amount of ground for you to cover. You said that Rust is more memory safe. Hard to argue. And more concise, about which I have no information. Those are good things. But, as I brought up elsewhere in this thread: Is Rust as easy to use in the embedded space? Is it available on as wide a variety of chips? Does Rust make it as easy to control memory alignment, for those who need it? Does Rust make it as easy to interface with libraries, many of which are written in C++? Memory safety is good. Conciseness is good. Those are not the only reasons one might choose a language.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    > C++ still exists because existing projects were written in it... that's it. False. > There's no value in using it for future projects other than a wider pool of developers to source from Well, you know, that is value. And there's value in being in the same language as the libraries you use. And there's value in C++ in the embedded space. And there's value to being able to control memory alignment in the high performance space. And... If you're writing some generic web service, sure, there's no reason to write it in C++. Your statement was far too broad, though.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    C++ is still the choice for truly performance-critical applications, period.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Because of network effects, not because of the language itself. Thus dominance will fade over time. There are many modern languages that are more ergonomic and just as fast.
      - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
        No, actually because of the language itself. What matters most in high-performance computing? The algorithm, sure. What's in second place? Memory alignment. Memory alignment determines whether or not I can use SIMD. It also determines how many cache misses I have. Can I fight that battle using Rust? Maybe. Is it as convenient as in C++? Is any other language? as convenient as C++?
        steveklabnik 4y ago
        Rust absolutely lets you control alignment, and use SIMD. I won’t claim to make a comparison to C++ here because I have never done that sort of work in it, but it is absolutely a thing.
        adam_arthur 4y ago
        There are tons of modern languages that allow low level memory access, including Rust. Nobody chooses C++ due to it being more convenient than modern languages.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I can't really see Java's time being gone for large, enterprise-level fintech/banking. Payments, integration with other large-scale systems, etc. Multiple payments or finance departments in FAANGs are still running Java, for example.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  You need to separate the language from the ecosystem. Yes, network effects will cause many languages to drag on in use, but that doesn't mean they're going to live in perpetuity. COBOL was used for a long time for various business backends... did that mean it was a great language that was going to be used in perpetuity? no. And I assume the majority of those don't exist anymore, despite existing as recently as the 2010s
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I just think it's weird to say Java's time is gone when Java is still the language du jour in a major employment field of programming. Maybe Java's time is waning but I wouldn't call it gone. New payments/fintech startups and greenfield projects are still choosing Java. I don't know a significant field whose new companies are still going with COBOL from greenfield. Additionally, what is replacing Java in the finance space? Genuinely asking, because I have no idea, and can you point me to some companies using the stuff that's replacing Java for banking/finance/etc?
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Yes, there was a time that C was used for pretty much every app. That time has come and gone as higher level languages became more popular. So too will Java's. The language itself is objectively more verbose than many modern equivalents. Network effects and existing libraries aren't facets of the language and over time the gap will narrow
      - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
        Can you please educate me on what are the languages and frameworks that enterprise-level finance and banking are going into in replace of Java? I'm good-faith asking. Additionally, "the gap will narrow" is not the same as "Java's time is over", which is the only thing I'm having an issue with. Over implies that the gap is already closed, but I don't think it is, and if I'm wrong I sincerely want to know about what the new language du jour of a major employment field is.
ithrow 4y ago
Many "modern" companies chose Java for the core of their backend servers, stripe, square, netflix to name a few.
kaba0 4y ago
C++ is definitely not replaced by Go, nor by Rust. C++ as well, but especially Java likely has multiple times as much projects than all the smaller languages summed. They are ain’t going anywhere anytime soonz