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Assessment of what constitutes good reasoning is somewhat dependent on having a lot of prerequisite knowledge. It’s hard, because I think public debate is healt

Assessment of what constitutes good reasoning is somewhat dependent on having a lot of prerequisite knowledge. It’s hard, because I think public debate is healthy generally, and I think that some valid discussion was quashed. At the same time, there were loonies spouting dangerous nonsense that did have tangible impacts.

spookthesunset 4y ago
> there were loonies spouting dangerous nonsense that did have tangible impacts The loonies were a very small set of people. They were used to tarnish the reputation of anybody who was even a wee bit skeptical of what society was doing. Just because somebody thinks closing schools for more than a year and a half is a bad idea doesn't make them a loony conspiracy theorist. Just because somebody thinks the harms of the mandates were worse than any benefit they provided doesn't make them a loony. 99% of all people were in the "non-loony" bucket. 1% were actual loonies, but according to "the experts" the whole set of skeptics are grandma killing loonies spreading "dangerous nonsense". By the way, multiple times I've been accused of spreading "dangerous nonsense" by linking to state dashboards that clearly demonstrate how age-stratified covid is. Apparently linking to public datasets is now "misinformation". Crazy crazy crazy...
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > but according to "the experts" the whole set of skeptics are grandma killing loonies spreading "dangerous nonsense". You're doing the exact thing you decry in your post by painting "the experts" with a broad brush and scare quotes as being unreasonable and hyperinflammatory in their rhetoric. Not everyone who was for school closings and lockdowns was calling their opponents "grandma killing loonies". People need to stop arguing from the extreme.
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    I've been literally called a grandma killer by a person I know in real life for wanting my kid to go school. I've been called a grandma killer for wanting a normal thanksgiving with my extended family. The people doing this might be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone for the last 2.5 years. Nobody else got a voice.
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      > The people doing this might be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone for the last 2.5 years. Nobody else got a voice. So in other words, 99% of the people were in the non-loony bucket, and you're focused on the 1% that yelled at you? I could turn your statement around. As a teacher, I've been called a child abuser by a person I know in real life for wanting teachers to have a safe working environment. The people doing this may be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone. So I really fail to see how what you're doing now in your second post is different from what you decry in your first.
      - nradov 4y ago
        It was horrible how government officials in collaboration with teacher's unions inflicted collective punishment on our children by closing schools and then imposing mask mandates. There was never any high-quality scientific evidence to justify such policies. And we clearly see in retrospect that they were unnecessary: Sweden kept schools open without mask mandates and they ended up with a lower death rate than the USA. In most cases the actual classroom teachers that I talked with didn't even support those policies. It was the teacher's unions which did most of the damage.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        Thanks for proving my point. "Inflict[ing] collective punishment" is not what anyone was trying to do. Being an actual teacher and knowing and talking to many actual teachers, I can tell you that your assertion that teachers didn't support those policies is uninformed. What teachers wanted was for the safety of students and teachers as well. The issues faced were that schools were very short staffed, and it's difficult to keep children safe and to maintain an effective learning environment when half the faculty and staff are out sick. The "keep schools open" crowd often floated a false dichotomy where the option was between schooling as normal or closed schools. Schooling as normal was never a realistic option for many districts with missing faculty and staff. They would say "kids are not susceptible to covid, therefore schools are safe" without any concern about teachers who in fact died due to covid, as happened in my district. Today we're facing a national teacher shortage where those who would have thought about teaching are steering clear of the field, and those currently in it are looking to get out asap. The rhetoric you're displaying here is a large part of the reason why.
- justanorherhack 4y ago
  This. As an under the age of 30 person, Covid is a small threat. But asking questions about a government mandated vaccine that was rushed through testing in an unprecedented manner labels you a loony. Questions like who is going to be liable for the inevitable even if small bad reactions? Not big pharma, they were absolved in the contract of all liability. If they were so confident and if this is so safe that I don’t have to worry about it as a citizen why did the lawyers ensure that they wouldn’t be liable? What about the precedence of liberty this sets? In a series of weeks the government removed nearly all agency overnight and everyone complied. There was no real debate on pros and cons of the total lockdown. The ineffectiveness of masks other than n95 when changed out daily. Which nobody had. I have friends that still won’t consider the vanity fair article or lab leak theory as anything other than conspiracy. Oh yea and the ever falling efficacy of the vaccine itself. But let’s check cress to make sure I’m a dr.
  - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
    I heard the criticism would skip between a few variables Do you have a PhD in virology? Are you a medical doctor? Are you a biomedical engineer? The worst types of credentialism!
  - SamPatt 4y ago
    >What about the precedence of liberty this sets? In a series of weeks the government removed nearly all agency overnight and everyone complied. There was no real debate on pros and cons of the total lockdown. Not only was there no debate, but even dissent was discouraged or even outlawed. No gatherings larger than 10 people allowed. Hard to rally against losing your freedom of movement when you can't leave your house.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      That’s not true, large assemblies for BLM were encouraged because the dozen wrongful murders a year constitute a bigger public health emergency than COVID. The standards were political from the start.

spookthesunset 4y ago

> there were loonies spouting dangerous nonsense that did have tangible impacts The loonies were a very small set of people. They were used to tarnish the reputation of anybody who was even a wee bit skeptical of what society was doing. Just because somebody thinks closing schools for more than a year and a half is a bad idea doesn't make them a loony conspiracy theorist. Just because somebody thinks the harms of the mandates were worse than any benefit they provided doesn't make them a loony. 99% of all people were in the "non-loony" bucket. 1% were actual loonies, but according to "the experts" the whole set of skeptics are grandma killing loonies spreading "dangerous nonsense". By the way, multiple times I've been accused of spreading "dangerous nonsense" by linking to state dashboards that clearly demonstrate how age-stratified covid is. Apparently linking to public datasets is now "misinformation". Crazy crazy crazy...

ModernMech 4y ago
> but according to "the experts" the whole set of skeptics are grandma killing loonies spreading "dangerous nonsense". You're doing the exact thing you decry in your post by painting "the experts" with a broad brush and scare quotes as being unreasonable and hyperinflammatory in their rhetoric. Not everyone who was for school closings and lockdowns was calling their opponents "grandma killing loonies". People need to stop arguing from the extreme.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  I've been literally called a grandma killer by a person I know in real life for wanting my kid to go school. I've been called a grandma killer for wanting a normal thanksgiving with my extended family. The people doing this might be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone for the last 2.5 years. Nobody else got a voice.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > The people doing this might be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone for the last 2.5 years. Nobody else got a voice. So in other words, 99% of the people were in the non-loony bucket, and you're focused on the 1% that yelled at you? I could turn your statement around. As a teacher, I've been called a child abuser by a person I know in real life for wanting teachers to have a safe working environment. The people doing this may be the minority, but they were the ones holding the microphone. So I really fail to see how what you're doing now in your second post is different from what you decry in your first.
    - nradov 4y ago
      It was horrible how government officials in collaboration with teacher's unions inflicted collective punishment on our children by closing schools and then imposing mask mandates. There was never any high-quality scientific evidence to justify such policies. And we clearly see in retrospect that they were unnecessary: Sweden kept schools open without mask mandates and they ended up with a lower death rate than the USA. In most cases the actual classroom teachers that I talked with didn't even support those policies. It was the teacher's unions which did most of the damage.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        Thanks for proving my point. "Inflict[ing] collective punishment" is not what anyone was trying to do. Being an actual teacher and knowing and talking to many actual teachers, I can tell you that your assertion that teachers didn't support those policies is uninformed. What teachers wanted was for the safety of students and teachers as well. The issues faced were that schools were very short staffed, and it's difficult to keep children safe and to maintain an effective learning environment when half the faculty and staff are out sick. The "keep schools open" crowd often floated a false dichotomy where the option was between schooling as normal or closed schools. Schooling as normal was never a realistic option for many districts with missing faculty and staff. They would say "kids are not susceptible to covid, therefore schools are safe" without any concern about teachers who in fact died due to covid, as happened in my district. Today we're facing a national teacher shortage where those who would have thought about teaching are steering clear of the field, and those currently in it are looking to get out asap. The rhetoric you're displaying here is a large part of the reason why.
justanorherhack 4y ago
This. As an under the age of 30 person, Covid is a small threat. But asking questions about a government mandated vaccine that was rushed through testing in an unprecedented manner labels you a loony. Questions like who is going to be liable for the inevitable even if small bad reactions? Not big pharma, they were absolved in the contract of all liability. If they were so confident and if this is so safe that I don’t have to worry about it as a citizen why did the lawyers ensure that they wouldn’t be liable? What about the precedence of liberty this sets? In a series of weeks the government removed nearly all agency overnight and everyone complied. There was no real debate on pros and cons of the total lockdown. The ineffectiveness of masks other than n95 when changed out daily. Which nobody had. I have friends that still won’t consider the vanity fair article or lab leak theory as anything other than conspiracy. Oh yea and the ever falling efficacy of the vaccine itself. But let’s check cress to make sure I’m a dr.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  I heard the criticism would skip between a few variables Do you have a PhD in virology? Are you a medical doctor? Are you a biomedical engineer? The worst types of credentialism!
- SamPatt 4y ago
  >What about the precedence of liberty this sets? In a series of weeks the government removed nearly all agency overnight and everyone complied. There was no real debate on pros and cons of the total lockdown. Not only was there no debate, but even dissent was discouraged or even outlawed. No gatherings larger than 10 people allowed. Hard to rally against losing your freedom of movement when you can't leave your house.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    That’s not true, large assemblies for BLM were encouraged because the dozen wrongful murders a year constitute a bigger public health emergency than COVID. The standards were political from the start.