4 ms·

Social ostracism and censorship is harm. Shutting down businesses and arresting business owners who refused to comply was harm. Wrecking supply chains and print

Social ostracism and censorship is harm. Shutting down businesses and arresting business owners who refused to comply was harm. Wrecking supply chains and printing egregious amounts of money was harm. Yes, violence was largely avoided. But it was still an extremely harmful period of time.

bombcar 4y ago
People seem to think that Germany went from sunshine and flowers to turbo-Hitler overnight; there was a gradual descent and it very definitely went through many of those states. It should be a constant reminder to each of us that we are not special and we are not different - we could and very well may be whipped into a similar frenzy someday.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  I try to keep that in mind when I read responses with which I personally degree. Behind every comment is an actual person with a valid opinion. I may not agree with it, but perspective is key. Some have said you learn the most listening to a critic/skeptic
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Even if the opinion is highly invalid, wrong, maybe arguably dangerous; the key that there is a person behind it is quite important. It's very easy to forget online, where you often only encounter one aspect of the person in one area.
  - sul_tasto 4y ago
    When I was a boy in the 1980’s I used to hear the phrase, “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I haven’t heard it said in decades. As such, I find your comment extremely uplifting.
- nradov 4y ago
  We can see the exact same process repeating in Russia right now. This could lead to consequences far worse than the recent pandemic.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The amount of rabid "let's go to nuclear war, it can't be that bad" immediately after the beginning was probably one of the scariest things I've personally witnessed.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      A lot of it was also people calling for things while seemingly intentionally bot following them to their logical conclusions, i.e.: 1) "We need a no fly zone over Ukraine and somehow not connecting the dots to that meaning 2) NATO jets shooting down Russian jets which in turn leads to 3) A hot war with between nuclear powers something that hasn't happened outside of a few border skirmishes between India and Pakistan
  - CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
    And the military was running pysops on that too: https://gizmodo.com/pentagon-social-media-psyop-military-russia-1849553778 https://gizmodo.com/pentagon-social-media-psyop-military-rus... And then there was this plan from 2019: "Providing lethal aid to Ukraine would exploit Russia’s greatest point of external vulnerability. But any increase in U.S. military arms and advice to Ukraine would need to be carefully calibrated to increase the costs to Russia of sustaining its existing commitment without provoking a much wider conflict in which Russia, by reason of proximity, would have significant advantages." - Overextending and Unbalancing Russia https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.rand...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  'Gradual descents' can lead many directions, including into rebounds and revivals. Virtually all countries and political systems have suffered declines at times. Since periods of decline is a nearly universal experience, the leap from gradual decline to nazis is only moderately less tenuous than the leap from 'drinks water' to nazis.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  I think this thread is looking back at 2020 with seriously tinted glasses. There we were dealing with a deadly highly-contagious airborne pandemic with cases and deaths growing exponentially, which would have been hard enough to deal with without politicization. But it became politicized and all efforts to stop it suddenly faced a massive, deliberate, sustained political attack. Downplaying, denial, misinformation, exaggeration, victim complexes, persecution complexes, every stop was pulled out, every tactic was tried. There wasn't even a goal, as far as I could tell--it was just contrariness for the sake of contrariness: "My political enemies are FOR sensible public health guidance, therefore I must be against it!" The scariest thing I learned during the last two years is how many people are willing to throw me, you, and everyone (including themselves!) under the bus in order to avoid even mild, temporary inconvenience, or to simply virtue-signal their contrariness to their clan. And the US treated these attackers with kid gloves. There were pretty much no enforcement of any of the things the complainers were complaining about: No consequences for ignoring stay-at-home mandates. Few localities actually enforced business closures. Masking was up to individual businesses to enforce, resulting in little compliance. Throughout the pandemic, I could drive 50 miles in any direction from my city and find people out and about, maskless, businesses open, no measures being taken at all. The only thing that was actually enforced were school closures, and that's only because schools are run by the government. Those two years ushered in this new era of consequence-free mass civil disobedience. And it wasn't even in service of anything--just performative contrariness. I guess intelligence agencies also learned the sad answer to the question "If there were a grave threat to society, is it possible to use PsyOps to get society to ignore or even prolong it?" But then again, I suppose our reaction to Climate Change has already answered that question.
  - orangecat 4y ago
    Yes, you are noble and altruistic and people who disagree with you are stupid and evil. Come on. Downplaying, denial, misinformation, exaggeration, victim complexes, persecution complexes, every stop was pulled out, every tactic was tried. Like when Ron DeSantis was called a murderer for opening Florida's beaches (when it was well established that outside activities were extremely safe), or when parents advocating for schools to open were called white supremacists (when the predictable result of closing schools was that poor and minority students suffered most)? The scariest thing I learned during the last two years is how many people are willing to throw me, you, and everyone (including themselves!) under the bus in order to avoid even mild, temporary inconvenience Meanwhile, I learned how many people are willing to have governments literally lock everyone in their homes because of their inability to do any sort of rational risk assessment or cost-benefit analysis.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Yes, some of these comments are talking like it's all in the rear-view mirror now. The consequences are still unfolding, and it's still a strong possiblility that they could lead to something very unpleasant.
- int_19h 4y ago
  Weimar Germany went down pretty fast, actually. Hitler became Chancellor on January 30, 1933. Reichstag Fire Decree was issued on February 28. The first concentration camp - Dachau - was opened for business on March 22, specifically for political prisoners.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
There's no question that any course of action (or courses of action) taken in response to a new airborne pandemic is going to involve harm. That's not the question. The question is: what public health policies will minimize harm according to some set of metrics, and what will those metrics be? The harms you describe are real. But you offer no way to quantify these harms against the harms that may have occured without the policies you are objecting to.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  Check what happened in other countries where such shit did not go down and you will have your answer. It was about the same.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Which countries are you thinking of? The lockdowns, mask mandates etc. in the USA were fairly mild compared to most countries.
troon-lover 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago

People seem to think that Germany went from sunshine and flowers to turbo-Hitler overnight; there was a gradual descent and it very definitely went through many of those states. It should be a constant reminder to each of us that we are not special and we are not different - we could and very well may be whipped into a similar frenzy someday.

OrvalWintermute 4y ago
I try to keep that in mind when I read responses with which I personally degree. Behind every comment is an actual person with a valid opinion. I may not agree with it, but perspective is key. Some have said you learn the most listening to a critic/skeptic
- bombcar 4y ago
  Even if the opinion is highly invalid, wrong, maybe arguably dangerous; the key that there is a person behind it is quite important. It's very easy to forget online, where you often only encounter one aspect of the person in one area.
- sul_tasto 4y ago
  When I was a boy in the 1980’s I used to hear the phrase, “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” I haven’t heard it said in decades. As such, I find your comment extremely uplifting.
nradov 4y ago
We can see the exact same process repeating in Russia right now. This could lead to consequences far worse than the recent pandemic.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The amount of rabid "let's go to nuclear war, it can't be that bad" immediately after the beginning was probably one of the scariest things I've personally witnessed.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    A lot of it was also people calling for things while seemingly intentionally bot following them to their logical conclusions, i.e.: 1) "We need a no fly zone over Ukraine and somehow not connecting the dots to that meaning 2) NATO jets shooting down Russian jets which in turn leads to 3) A hot war with between nuclear powers something that hasn't happened outside of a few border skirmishes between India and Pakistan
- CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
  And the military was running pysops on that too: https://gizmodo.com/pentagon-social-media-psyop-military-russia-1849553778 https://gizmodo.com/pentagon-social-media-psyop-military-rus... And then there was this plan from 2019: "Providing lethal aid to Ukraine would exploit Russia’s greatest point of external vulnerability. But any increase in U.S. military arms and advice to Ukraine would need to be carefully calibrated to increase the costs to Russia of sustaining its existing commitment without provoking a much wider conflict in which Russia, by reason of proximity, would have significant advantages." - Overextending and Unbalancing Russia https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190601000000*/https://www.rand...
MichaelCollins 4y ago
'Gradual descents' can lead many directions, including into rebounds and revivals. Virtually all countries and political systems have suffered declines at times. Since periods of decline is a nearly universal experience, the leap from gradual decline to nazis is only moderately less tenuous than the leap from 'drinks water' to nazis.
ryandrake 4y ago
I think this thread is looking back at 2020 with seriously tinted glasses. There we were dealing with a deadly highly-contagious airborne pandemic with cases and deaths growing exponentially, which would have been hard enough to deal with without politicization. But it became politicized and all efforts to stop it suddenly faced a massive, deliberate, sustained political attack. Downplaying, denial, misinformation, exaggeration, victim complexes, persecution complexes, every stop was pulled out, every tactic was tried. There wasn't even a goal, as far as I could tell--it was just contrariness for the sake of contrariness: "My political enemies are FOR sensible public health guidance, therefore I must be against it!" The scariest thing I learned during the last two years is how many people are willing to throw me, you, and everyone (including themselves!) under the bus in order to avoid even mild, temporary inconvenience, or to simply virtue-signal their contrariness to their clan. And the US treated these attackers with kid gloves. There were pretty much no enforcement of any of the things the complainers were complaining about: No consequences for ignoring stay-at-home mandates. Few localities actually enforced business closures. Masking was up to individual businesses to enforce, resulting in little compliance. Throughout the pandemic, I could drive 50 miles in any direction from my city and find people out and about, maskless, businesses open, no measures being taken at all. The only thing that was actually enforced were school closures, and that's only because schools are run by the government. Those two years ushered in this new era of consequence-free mass civil disobedience. And it wasn't even in service of anything--just performative contrariness. I guess intelligence agencies also learned the sad answer to the question "If there were a grave threat to society, is it possible to use PsyOps to get society to ignore or even prolong it?" But then again, I suppose our reaction to Climate Change has already answered that question.
- orangecat 4y ago
  Yes, you are noble and altruistic and people who disagree with you are stupid and evil. Come on. Downplaying, denial, misinformation, exaggeration, victim complexes, persecution complexes, every stop was pulled out, every tactic was tried. Like when Ron DeSantis was called a murderer for opening Florida's beaches (when it was well established that outside activities were extremely safe), or when parents advocating for schools to open were called white supremacists (when the predictable result of closing schools was that poor and minority students suffered most)? The scariest thing I learned during the last two years is how many people are willing to throw me, you, and everyone (including themselves!) under the bus in order to avoid even mild, temporary inconvenience Meanwhile, I learned how many people are willing to have governments literally lock everyone in their homes because of their inability to do any sort of rational risk assessment or cost-benefit analysis.
SoftTalker 4y ago
Yes, some of these comments are talking like it's all in the rear-view mirror now. The consequences are still unfolding, and it's still a strong possiblility that they could lead to something very unpleasant.
int_19h 4y ago
Weimar Germany went down pretty fast, actually. Hitler became Chancellor on January 30, 1933. Reichstag Fire Decree was issued on February 28. The first concentration camp - Dachau - was opened for business on March 22, specifically for political prisoners.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

There's no question that any course of action (or courses of action) taken in response to a new airborne pandemic is going to involve harm. That's not the question. The question is: what public health policies will minimize harm according to some set of metrics, and what will those metrics be? The harms you describe are real. But you offer no way to quantify these harms against the harms that may have occured without the policies you are objecting to.

ekianjo 4y ago
Check what happened in other countries where such shit did not go down and you will have your answer. It was about the same.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Which countries are you thinking of? The lockdowns, mask mandates etc. in the USA were fairly mild compared to most countries.

troon-lover 4y ago