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Address by the President of the Russian Federation

62 points by daviddumon 4y ago

nostrademons 4y ago
So deciphering the double-speak: Russia is instituting a draft, they consider Crimea part of Russia's territorial integrity, efforts to dehumanize the opposition or paint it as a shadowy international conspiracy continue, and they're threatening nuclear war. Get ready for WW3.
- justbored123 4y ago
  > Get ready for WW3. Against who? Russia can't even fight Ukraine. China es calling for peace. This is a minor regional conflict. I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine and Russia that are going to suffer and die pointlessly for the delusional imperial ambitions of an old man that lives 75 years in the pass. Putin is the new Mussolini, getting his ass handed to him while trying to invade Greece and for exactly the same reasons; mainly a low moral, low quality army that doesn't want to fight that war.
- theironhammer 4y ago
  The Nuclear War threat is not a joke. Just imagine if China or Russia had the same activities in Mexico or Canada that the USA/NATO has had in the Ukraine over many years. How would Washington react?
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    Putin can't even elevate to full out war and conscription, yet you think he will jump all the way to using nuclear weapons? The threat is completely hollow.
  - alkonaut 4y ago
    What activities are that? And was it these activities that made it possible to completely ignore international laws on territorial integrity and warrant and invade Ukraine outright? No. All this “but USA!”, “but NATO!”, “but the Nazis!” whataboutism is complete nonsense. It doesn’t even begin to explain one country invading a neighbor with 125k men, leveling entire cities and killing thousands of civilians. Even making hypothetical Mexico comparisons is impossible without focusing the debate around something other than the invasion and therefore sounding like a Russia apologist.
    - theironhammer 4y ago
      1993 Ukraine joined a cooperative organization that effectively made them a defacto NATO member. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/27/US-and-Ukraine-sign-military-cooperation-agreement/7336743745600/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/27/US-and-Ukraine-sign-... 2013 Viktoria Nuland orchestrated a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead. A pro Western leader was put in place. https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukrain... Since 2014 NATO has been training Ukrainian forces. https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nato-has-been-training-ukrainian-forces-for-years/ https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nato-has-been-training-ukr... Cuba was not allowed to have Soviet missiles but it's ok for Ukraine to become a member of NATO? The "Nazis" should not be underestimated. They are small but powerful because they use violence and intimidation. Like the Cartels influence with law enforcement in Mexico they influence policy in Ukraine.
      - mnsc 4y ago
        https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-us-promoted-and-financed-the-2013-2014-color-revolution-and-ouster-of-former-ukrainian-president-yanukovych/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-us-promoted-and-financed-t... > Ukrainians spontaneously united against the actions of President Viktor Yanukovych after his government refused to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union, which had taken seven years to negotiate, due to pressure from Russia. If the Ukrainians spent 7 years wanting to get closer to the west and then as you say "[Yanukovych] changed his mind". I think it's easy to see the populace wanting to oust this leader and that the following leader would be pro western, like the leaders in the seven prior years.
      - alkonaut 4y ago
        > a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead. Does a coup in a foreign country form a valid pretext for invasion you mean? > Since 2014 NATO has been training Ukrainian forces. Yes. Are you trying to argue that this forms a reasonable pretext for invading a neighboring country? Or how else is it relevant? > it's ok for Ukraine to become a member of NATO? Of course. It's their choice as a sovereign state to have any alliance with anyone. It seems you are enumerating a number of things that Russia disagreed with or that was even outright hostile or Anti-russian. But that doesn't form a pretext for invasion does it? > Cuba was not allowed to have Soviet missiles Accoring to who? The US? Ukraine? The soviet union? Nato? No. It was the US that considered this unacceptable. And the Soviet Union considered the placement of MRBMs in Turkey unacceptable. So you might argue the US "started" that. But a key fact in that story is of course that the drama ended with both countries withdrawing those missiles, luckily (The US from Turkey, and The USSR from Cuba). The US certainly hasn't always behaved will in international relations. But don't try to make this a whataboutism discussion about "NATO is the US and the US did X so no one can point fingers at russia for doing similar thing Y". Ukraine isn't in NATO any more than Austria is, and Ukraine takes no responsibility for past US or NATO actions. Ukraine is a sovereign country that has a right to territorial integrity. Did Cuba have that as well? Yes! If Ukraine feels it needs a military alliance, that's their choice. If Russia fels that the threat of a big military alliance on their doorstep is too much, then they are of course entitled to build up defenses on their borders. This would create tensions, and those tensions could need addressing. But the bottom line is: if a country invades another country, the case is pretty clear cut. It doesn't matter whether someone else made the same error. It's wrong and must be condemned. There is no valid pretext for this invasion.
- foverzar 4y ago
  Seems more like a translation TO doublespeak. You can argue with every point, but won't ever win cuz "it's just a way to communicate without being pedantic", but then you put all of this together and get a complete and utter gibberish. And this is basically how doublespeak works.
- theironhammer 4y ago
  Crimea affords Russia with a warm water port. There's no way in Hell they will give that up. Putin took Crimea because he was afraid of losing it if Ukraine joined NATO.
iostream25 4y ago
A quote from Kier Giles, whose article in today's Guardian addresses some of the silliness and contradictions in Putin's speech this morning. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/vladimir-putin-previous-threats-ukriane-hollow-bluff https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/vladim... "few of Putin’s contradictory storylines stand up to even a moment’s critical thought: we are winning in Ukraine – but the forces of the west aligned against us are so powerful that now we need to dig deeper to stay in the fight; our proxy regimes in Ukraine need to hold referendums to join us – but we already know they all want to join; we’re protecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Russia itself – but to do this requires incorporating part of another country; our war aim has always simply been to “liberate” Donbas – but to do that we’ve also taken so much of Ukraine that we have a 1,000km frontline."
Mikeb85 4y ago
All the doublespeak is actually pretty amazing to witness... We're defending Russia but also "liberated" Kherson and Zaporizhzhia... The west is threatening us with nuclear weapons... The regime which came into power in 2014 (nevermind that Poroshenko and that whole group were voted out in a democratic election where Zelenskiy and his party, who were notably more friendly to Russia at first, came to power)...
- proxyon 4y ago
  - Blackthorn 4y ago
    Ah yes, all those neo-nazi militias that checks notes supported a Jewish leader.
    - ndlso 4y ago
      - apurtbapurt 4y ago
        Ok? Some military guy in Ukraine has a patch with a skull and... drumroll THE NAZI:S ALSO USED IMAGES OF (not-quite-the-same-looking) SKULLS!!! If you are into this kind of scary stuff, I can warmly recomend a documentary from 2012 called Iron Sky. It really puts the American moon landings into a new light. No big surprise of course, since Americans often use eagle symbols, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS!!! The truth is out there!
      - noSyncCloud 4y ago
    - moistly 4y ago
      They’re so sneaky like that!
  - 4y ago
iostream25 4y ago
My general sense is that not even Putin believes his own rhetoric, such is his inconsistency of thought. The reality is that Putin has elected to invade a sovereign neighbor country and can unelect to do so. Not one "western" leader, military or civilian, has threatened Russia "existentially" and certainly no one has threatened to invade Russia. Putin is a liar, to put it simply. He's apparently playing the crazy-card, in attempts to freak the world out, but his constant threats to the entire world of nuclear first-strikes and then saying that "THIS TIME IS NOT A BLUFF" means that people can't really learn much by his unchanging and silly rhetoric. As some boxer said: "Be aware of the main trunk of his body and where it's moving and watch his hands"
- namelessoracle 4y ago
  Biden publicly called for Putin to be removed. This kind of follows what Chomsky has said, there is no path for PUTIN to de-escalate this situation. I don't see how Putin survives standing down, so he wont.
  - kranke155 4y ago
    This is a nonsense commment. Are you trying to say Biden saying something puts Putin is some kind of impossible position? This is an imperialist war of choice.
    - theironhammer 4y ago
      - kranke155 4y ago
        I know those arguments and reject them. Hopefully you will too eventually. Feeling wronged gives Russia no right to trample on the sovereignty of 40 million Ukrainians - who wanted to join NATO of their own free will. Anyway.
        4y ago
bediger4000 4y ago
We used to use the word "kremlinology" to describe efforts to decipher ("bake") the USSR official rhetoric. That word's time has come again!
- theironhammer 4y ago
  [flagged]
topspin 4y ago
Putin has no choice. He's had no choice since he started all of this in 2014; he can't back down because that outcome isn't survivable for a Russian leader. It's going to take 100,000+ dead Russians. At some point the military and civilian leadership in Russia will realize that Putin has to go, and that is when all this will end. There is a lot of death and destruction yet to go. Ukraine will struggle with hundreds of thousands of new bodies arming Russia's antique military machine. Iran is flying in large quantities of drones that will expose Ukraine's forces to effective Russian artillery. But the outcome won't change; Ukraine will ultimately win because it's not a war of choice for Ukraine and Ukraine has the allies it needs to keep fighting.
- namelessoracle 4y ago
  People said much the same about Syria, and yet Assad is still there. Ukraine would be foolish to trust the North America or Europe to support them forever, especially if even more major economic issues happen in either continent. That seems to be Putins play, he is hoping the West's internal issues sufficiently flare up. This winter will probably determine that. The only real diplomatic path is to convince China to sever with Russia, and thats not gonna happen. Its well understood China is looking at this as a dry run for what kind of responses to expect if Taiwan gets attacked. And China is the clear winner of the Ukraine conflict right now.
  - Someone 4y ago
    > The only real diplomatic path is to convince China to sever with Russia, and thats not gonna happen. It’s not going to fully happen, but Putin met Xi Jinping in Uzbekistan last week, and returned a bit disappointed. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/09/16/world/vladimir-putin-xi-jinping-uzbekistan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/09/16/world/vladimir-...: “President Vladimir Putin acknowledged Thursday that China had “questions and concerns” about Russia’s war in Ukraine, a notable, if cryptic, admission that Moscow lacks the full backing of its biggest, most powerful partner on the world stage” ⇒ I don’t think Russia will get much support from China.
    - 4y ago
anonupennprof 4y ago
This may very well be the eve of WW3. The latest Ukrainian victories were due to NATO forces taking over so many core operations, it's basically Russia vs NATO. This formal declaration by Russia is basically saying they are about to stop holding back. They have purposefully avoid destroying infrastructure like water and power in ukraine for an unusually long time. They also have been sending their b-c teams not their A-list because they wanted to save them. This action pleases a great deal of the america military complex because money. At least it would have if American troops were in better shape, enlistments were dropping heavily, and troop fitness is dropping radically. The desire for the common man to die for his country has dropped significantly in Russia AND NATO countries. So you will soon see the following, America will try to rebuild "patriotism" prior to instituting a draft. This is why the pentagon is reviewing all psyops, they are about to reverse the social engineering psyops in motion such diversity and "woke". Russia will push religion to build morale on their side. I believe a draft in America will lead to disintegration, but only time will tell.
- jollyllama 4y ago
  I don't think you're far off with your first couple of points, but I don't think the USA will try conscription, precisely because it would have destabilizing effects you mention.
- mint2 4y ago
  > They also have been sending their b-c teams not their A-list because they wanted to save them That this comment claims this really says all one need about the comment. Russia Just admitted it was over extended and had exhausted its professional army by declaring a mobilization of reservists. Everyone clearly knows the professional army is the C list and it’s the reservists that are the true A listers. <heavy sarcasm>
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  > The latest Ukrainian victories were due to NATO forces taking over so many core operations, it's basically Russia vs NATO. Evidence? NATO is sending a lot of materiel and weapons. NATO is helping with intelligence. If that's what you mean by "core operations", maybe I can see it. More than that? Let's see the evidence.
ThalesX 4y ago
Interesting read for anyone that might be interested: 2021 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Ukraine BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND LABOR https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-human-... https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_UKRAINE-2021-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_UKRA... (I love how the downvotes have already begun not even a minute in... how is this not context to the speech? Zealots...)
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  Hot damn, the whataboutisms are out in force on this article, and not even an hour in.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    I’d love to ask the residents of Bucha or Izium what they think about the relative respect for human rights between Russia and Ukraine but of course the Russian military invaded their land and then murdered large swaths of their population and then buried them in mass graves. These things are just the weakest deflections in service of a psychopathic dictator’s imperialistic war.
    - netmonk 4y ago
      Mickey what is the name of your drug dealer ? He sells good stuff it seems.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
        netmonk 4y ago
nayroclade 4y ago
Apparently, the size of the mobilisation will be 300k people, so this isn't going to be an overwhelmingly large force. The speculation I've seen is that this move is about 1) stopping the attrition of professional soldiers as their contracts expire and 2) providing manpower in logistics and controlling the occupied areas, so as to allow more rest and rotation of front-line soldiers.
- kranke155 4y ago
  They invaded with less than 300k. It is doubtful that Ukraine has a similar number of professional soldiers (excluding Territorial Defence ). It’s possible that this will give them an overwhelming force.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Ukraine didn't have 300k when Russia invaded. They may have more now. Anyone have data? And, 300k without artillery, tanks, air support, and logistics isn't an overwhelming force. Does Russia have the rest of what it takes to make them an effective force?
    - orwin 4y ago
      No. They have less than 800 multipurpose and attack planes combined (because i don't want to explain it in another comment: they have air superiority, so their fighter plan count isn't relevant). If we consider Russian hardware as well maintained as France or US, it means 650 available planes max for offensive operations. A bit more than 50 planes are confirmed destroyed, so I'll round it up to 600. That means 300 sortie a day max (if each plane have 2 maintenance crew fulltime). But as the long-range air defense is effective, you cannot penetrate too deep, and that limit the efficiency. Ukraine is like twice the size of Irak, with more population and vegetation. Russia do have air superiority but they cannot action it. Hopefully for the conscripts, Putin just want to defend and wait it out . In this case, manpower is effective. Another way to use manpower is to assault continuously WW1 style, supported by artillery fire. This would be stupid.
ajl666 4y ago
It's sad to see how easily westerners are mislead by our own leaders, who ape Soviet contempt for constituents and maliciously ignore voter inputs. You should at least make an effort to see things from the Russian point of view. To say there's nothing valid in the Russian state's actions, is really idiotic. 1) Are post WW2 borders sacred? 2) The dissolution of the USSR was chaotic, unnegotiated, and basically due to the magnanimity of Gorbachev. 3) Therefore, post USSR space resembles post-colonial Africa: former co-nationals are now minorities, depending on which post-Soviet state one examines. Armenia and Azerbaijan are good examples. Oh, but the news didn't tell you to get upset about it yet, so you have no opinion? That's why these opinions on Ukraine are so unprincipled. 4) The Turks depopulated Ukraine via the slave trade. Russia conquered the land, pushed the Turks back, and colonized E Ukraine for themselves. 18th century stuff. What I want to know is why the wokester position (the official Western "Good Guy" position, otherwise known the Party Line Winston) finds the USA's existence an affront to Native Americans and Mexicans, Israel's existence an affront to Palestinians, but cares not one whit for Poland occupying half of historic Germany, Turkey's ongoing genocide of Armenians (They back Azerbaijan, and Turkey is also a NATO power), and Greeks (threatening to invade... read proper journalists and you'll know)? 5) The West did the same thing to Serbia. The West in fact helped with the Muslim genocide of Serbians. Kosovo is the origin of Serbian culture and the Muslims overran it in the last 400 years. If you weep for the Native Americans and Tibetans, then you should care about what happened in Serbia too. Worse, the precedent is the one that the Russians used as the pretext to invade Ukraine. 6) Crimea was given to Ukraine in the 1950s by Khrushchev. It was Tatar and then it was Russian. HOW IS THAT SACRED? The same international law the US breaks constantly? 7) Remember that post-Cold War Magnanimity by Gorby? Know how people keep saying 'uh oh, if Putin loses, he'll nuke us all?' Do you really think that political shift came from nowhere? The west has been attacking Russia ever since the Cold War ended. If western idiots (sadly, most of us) haven't recognized (or are too ignorant to even know about because you don't read) the damage, that's only because you do the same thing the Russians do: slavishly listen to leaders without actually questioning the fact-stack. The US broke the promise not to move NATO eastward. That was the original sin. That was not nothing. That was as aggressive as attacking Ukraine. The demographic decline of Russia is not war damage? The economic damage of allowing China into the WTO and not Russia (when they were trying to be good) is not war damage? The use of western financial institutions to pillage Russia and financialize and control its mineral assets, while at the same time encouraging the de-industrializing of Russia is not war damage? 8) The Russians stopped the Cold War, but the US and the West did not. 9) Now they are mobilizing. They can't do it like we do: the US uses war to pillage its own people. The Russians are mobilizing the only way they can: the old fashioned way. The Russians are pushing back the only way they can: the old fashioned way. 10) Everywhere I go, supposedly intelligent people act like citizens of Oceana who can't seem to remember what happened the prior news cycle and remember only what the Wokeing class demands. Everything else goes in the memory hole. 11) THE WEST IS JUST AS BAD! CYBERPUNK IS JUST AS SH!T AS FALLOUT! 12) I didn't want any of this. The time to have stopped this was in the 1990s when the Western Trojan horse known as Chubais was busy annihilating the Russian economy. We nurtured China because their slaves were going to make our masters more profits and turn the majority of Americans from a free people with trades into a poor, welfare dependent people from the noblesse oblige of our 'elites' who shipped our manufacturing overseas... Russia has resources, China has slaves. Russia didn't play along when we tried financializing their economy and pulling it into our orbit. So now it's war. 13) To all you stubborn ignorant dummies: Good job. You have caused global starvation, European economic collapse, the annihilation of Ukraine, and it all benefits... you? 14) Hacker News is filled with beneficiaries of US policies. You can rely on a man to not understand something when his paycheck is dependent on him not understanding. 15) Keep on downvoting. The truth is a virus and I hope it destroys your brains.
kranke155 4y ago
Is this even appropriate for HN? Is this related to tech somehow? Seems having this sort of post here, all it does is bring out Reddit level bad takes.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Funny that in all criticism of Russia on HK, every opposing post has to include reference to Reddit. You are not going to manipulate people so easily. 'Oh man, come on guys, you're sharing positions with those simple minded Reddit posters'. How about you just make an argument on it's merits, instead of injecting your own bad take?
  - kranke155 4y ago
    How about limiting this forum to what it’s supposed to cover?
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. I would say Putin escalating a major war in the heart of Europe and his threats of nuclear warfare with the West fall under 'interesting new phenomenon'.
diimdeep 4y ago
Can anyone clarify something that I have recently heard in interview (Russian language)[1]: that U.S. citizens believe that U.S. defeated Nazis and won WW2, and not USSR. Is this in your experience is mostly true or false ? [1] https://youtu.be/Q0oRii7zV9A?t=1973 https://youtu.be/Q0oRii7zV9A?t=1973
- generj 4y ago
  The broadly accepted view is that the USSR won their front of the war using American supplies and Russian blood. And that the western fronts would have been far worse except for the Eastern front bleeding Germany dry. The US won against Japan essentially without help from the USSR.
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    I would agree and add that the American and British soldiers were "lions lead by donkeys" and if not for the might of the American industrial machine supplying materiél the superior trained and leas German forces would've at least prevailed much longer than they did.
  - frozencell 4y ago
    Fun facts: - Wall Street partly funded the Russian communism revolution.
- freeone3000 4y ago
  This isn't taken as factually true but is part of the US narrative, so it feels true even to people who were told about WWII. After all, the Allied Powers were fighting Germany, so USSR contributions feel limited, even if their contributions exceeded Allied ones.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Yes I believe this is true reflection of Western opinion. There was an article a while back that showed a much higher recognition of Soviet efforts and sacrifices in WW2 immedistely after the war ended but tapering away ever since.
Georgelemental 4y ago
Mobilization will hurt Putin politically in Russia. Much of his power and following is based on the belief that he is the only one who can provide stability for Russians—"Putin, the one who put an end to the chaos of the Gorbachev and Yeltsin years." But not mobilizing means losing the war, which he would not survive. So, a bitter pill but one he must swallow
stunt 4y ago
People on both sides of this debate are exploited by the war propaganda that both sides push. It doesn't matter which side you stand on today, if you think the solution to this problem is war instead of negotiation and peace, you are being abused by everything you read and hear.
- nickpp 4y ago
  If Russia would stop fighting, there would be no war. If Ukraine would stop fighting, there would be no Ukraine.
- theironhammer 4y ago
  Agreed but you have to negotiate for peace from a position of strength.

62 points by daviddumon 4y ago

So deciphering the double-speak: Russia is instituting a draft, they consider Crimea part of Russia's territorial integrity, efforts to dehumanize the opposition or paint it as a shadowy international conspiracy continue, and they're threatening nuclear war. Get ready for WW3.

justbored123 4y ago
> Get ready for WW3. Against who? Russia can't even fight Ukraine. China es calling for peace. This is a minor regional conflict. I feel sorry for the people of Ukraine and Russia that are going to suffer and die pointlessly for the delusional imperial ambitions of an old man that lives 75 years in the pass. Putin is the new Mussolini, getting his ass handed to him while trying to invade Greece and for exactly the same reasons; mainly a low moral, low quality army that doesn't want to fight that war.
theironhammer 4y ago
The Nuclear War threat is not a joke. Just imagine if China or Russia had the same activities in Mexico or Canada that the USA/NATO has had in the Ukraine over many years. How would Washington react?
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  Putin can't even elevate to full out war and conscription, yet you think he will jump all the way to using nuclear weapons? The threat is completely hollow.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  What activities are that? And was it these activities that made it possible to completely ignore international laws on territorial integrity and warrant and invade Ukraine outright? No. All this “but USA!”, “but NATO!”, “but the Nazis!” whataboutism is complete nonsense. It doesn’t even begin to explain one country invading a neighbor with 125k men, leveling entire cities and killing thousands of civilians. Even making hypothetical Mexico comparisons is impossible without focusing the debate around something other than the invasion and therefore sounding like a Russia apologist.
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    1993 Ukraine joined a cooperative organization that effectively made them a defacto NATO member. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/27/US-and-Ukraine-sign-military-cooperation-agreement/7336743745600/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/07/27/US-and-Ukraine-sign-... 2013 Viktoria Nuland orchestrated a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead. A pro Western leader was put in place. https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/ https://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukrain... Since 2014 NATO has been training Ukrainian forces. https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nato-has-been-training-ukrainian-forces-for-years/ https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nato-has-been-training-ukr... Cuba was not allowed to have Soviet missiles but it's ok for Ukraine to become a member of NATO? The "Nazis" should not be underestimated. They are small but powerful because they use violence and intimidation. Like the Cartels influence with law enforcement in Mexico they influence policy in Ukraine.
    - mnsc 4y ago
      https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-us-promoted-and-financed-the-2013-2014-color-revolution-and-ouster-of-former-ukrainian-president-yanukovych/ https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-us-promoted-and-financed-t... > Ukrainians spontaneously united against the actions of President Viktor Yanukovych after his government refused to sign the Association Agreement with the European Union, which had taken seven years to negotiate, due to pressure from Russia. If the Ukrainians spent 7 years wanting to get closer to the west and then as you say "[Yanukovych] changed his mind". I think it's easy to see the populace wanting to oust this leader and that the following leader would be pro western, like the leaders in the seven prior years.
    - alkonaut 4y ago
      > a coup to oust Yanukovych because he changed his mind at signing an economic agreement with EU and signed one with Russia instead. Does a coup in a foreign country form a valid pretext for invasion you mean? > Since 2014 NATO has been training Ukrainian forces. Yes. Are you trying to argue that this forms a reasonable pretext for invading a neighboring country? Or how else is it relevant? > it's ok for Ukraine to become a member of NATO? Of course. It's their choice as a sovereign state to have any alliance with anyone. It seems you are enumerating a number of things that Russia disagreed with or that was even outright hostile or Anti-russian. But that doesn't form a pretext for invasion does it? > Cuba was not allowed to have Soviet missiles Accoring to who? The US? Ukraine? The soviet union? Nato? No. It was the US that considered this unacceptable. And the Soviet Union considered the placement of MRBMs in Turkey unacceptable. So you might argue the US "started" that. But a key fact in that story is of course that the drama ended with both countries withdrawing those missiles, luckily (The US from Turkey, and The USSR from Cuba). The US certainly hasn't always behaved will in international relations. But don't try to make this a whataboutism discussion about "NATO is the US and the US did X so no one can point fingers at russia for doing similar thing Y". Ukraine isn't in NATO any more than Austria is, and Ukraine takes no responsibility for past US or NATO actions. Ukraine is a sovereign country that has a right to territorial integrity. Did Cuba have that as well? Yes! If Ukraine feels it needs a military alliance, that's their choice. If Russia fels that the threat of a big military alliance on their doorstep is too much, then they are of course entitled to build up defenses on their borders. This would create tensions, and those tensions could need addressing. But the bottom line is: if a country invades another country, the case is pretty clear cut. It doesn't matter whether someone else made the same error. It's wrong and must be condemned. There is no valid pretext for this invasion.
foverzar 4y ago
Seems more like a translation TO doublespeak. You can argue with every point, but won't ever win cuz "it's just a way to communicate without being pedantic", but then you put all of this together and get a complete and utter gibberish. And this is basically how doublespeak works.
theironhammer 4y ago
Crimea affords Russia with a warm water port. There's no way in Hell they will give that up. Putin took Crimea because he was afraid of losing it if Ukraine joined NATO.

iostream25 4y ago

A quote from Kier Giles, whose article in today's Guardian addresses some of the silliness and contradictions in Putin's speech this morning. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/vladimir-putin-previous-threats-ukriane-hollow-bluff https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/21/vladim... "few of Putin’s contradictory storylines stand up to even a moment’s critical thought: we are winning in Ukraine – but the forces of the west aligned against us are so powerful that now we need to dig deeper to stay in the fight; our proxy regimes in Ukraine need to hold referendums to join us – but we already know they all want to join; we’re protecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Russia itself – but to do this requires incorporating part of another country; our war aim has always simply been to “liberate” Donbas – but to do that we’ve also taken so much of Ukraine that we have a 1,000km frontline."

Mikeb85 4y ago

All the doublespeak is actually pretty amazing to witness... We're defending Russia but also "liberated" Kherson and Zaporizhzhia... The west is threatening us with nuclear weapons... The regime which came into power in 2014 (nevermind that Poroshenko and that whole group were voted out in a democratic election where Zelenskiy and his party, who were notably more friendly to Russia at first, came to power)...

proxyon 4y ago
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  Ah yes, all those neo-nazi militias that checks notes supported a Jewish leader.
  - ndlso 4y ago
    - apurtbapurt 4y ago
      Ok? Some military guy in Ukraine has a patch with a skull and... drumroll THE NAZI:S ALSO USED IMAGES OF (not-quite-the-same-looking) SKULLS!!! If you are into this kind of scary stuff, I can warmly recomend a documentary from 2012 called Iron Sky. It really puts the American moon landings into a new light. No big surprise of course, since Americans often use eagle symbols, JUST LIKE THE NAZIS!!! The truth is out there!
    - noSyncCloud 4y ago
  - moistly 4y ago
    They’re so sneaky like that!
- 4y ago

iostream25 4y ago

My general sense is that not even Putin believes his own rhetoric, such is his inconsistency of thought. The reality is that Putin has elected to invade a sovereign neighbor country and can unelect to do so. Not one "western" leader, military or civilian, has threatened Russia "existentially" and certainly no one has threatened to invade Russia. Putin is a liar, to put it simply. He's apparently playing the crazy-card, in attempts to freak the world out, but his constant threats to the entire world of nuclear first-strikes and then saying that "THIS TIME IS NOT A BLUFF" means that people can't really learn much by his unchanging and silly rhetoric. As some boxer said: "Be aware of the main trunk of his body and where it's moving and watch his hands"

namelessoracle 4y ago
Biden publicly called for Putin to be removed. This kind of follows what Chomsky has said, there is no path for PUTIN to de-escalate this situation. I don't see how Putin survives standing down, so he wont.
- kranke155 4y ago
  This is a nonsense commment. Are you trying to say Biden saying something puts Putin is some kind of impossible position? This is an imperialist war of choice.
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    - kranke155 4y ago
      I know those arguments and reject them. Hopefully you will too eventually. Feeling wronged gives Russia no right to trample on the sovereignty of 40 million Ukrainians - who wanted to join NATO of their own free will. Anyway.
      - 4y ago

bediger4000 4y ago

We used to use the word "kremlinology" to describe efforts to decipher ("bake") the USSR official rhetoric. That word's time has come again!

theironhammer 4y ago
[flagged]

topspin 4y ago

Putin has no choice. He's had no choice since he started all of this in 2014; he can't back down because that outcome isn't survivable for a Russian leader. It's going to take 100,000+ dead Russians. At some point the military and civilian leadership in Russia will realize that Putin has to go, and that is when all this will end. There is a lot of death and destruction yet to go. Ukraine will struggle with hundreds of thousands of new bodies arming Russia's antique military machine. Iran is flying in large quantities of drones that will expose Ukraine's forces to effective Russian artillery. But the outcome won't change; Ukraine will ultimately win because it's not a war of choice for Ukraine and Ukraine has the allies it needs to keep fighting.

namelessoracle 4y ago
People said much the same about Syria, and yet Assad is still there. Ukraine would be foolish to trust the North America or Europe to support them forever, especially if even more major economic issues happen in either continent. That seems to be Putins play, he is hoping the West's internal issues sufficiently flare up. This winter will probably determine that. The only real diplomatic path is to convince China to sever with Russia, and thats not gonna happen. Its well understood China is looking at this as a dry run for what kind of responses to expect if Taiwan gets attacked. And China is the clear winner of the Ukraine conflict right now.
- Someone 4y ago
  > The only real diplomatic path is to convince China to sever with Russia, and thats not gonna happen. It’s not going to fully happen, but Putin met Xi Jinping in Uzbekistan last week, and returned a bit disappointed. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/09/16/world/vladimir-putin-xi-jinping-uzbekistan/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/09/16/world/vladimir-...: “President Vladimir Putin acknowledged Thursday that China had “questions and concerns” about Russia’s war in Ukraine, a notable, if cryptic, admission that Moscow lacks the full backing of its biggest, most powerful partner on the world stage” ⇒ I don’t think Russia will get much support from China.
  - 4y ago

anonupennprof 4y ago

This may very well be the eve of WW3. The latest Ukrainian victories were due to NATO forces taking over so many core operations, it's basically Russia vs NATO. This formal declaration by Russia is basically saying they are about to stop holding back. They have purposefully avoid destroying infrastructure like water and power in ukraine for an unusually long time. They also have been sending their b-c teams not their A-list because they wanted to save them. This action pleases a great deal of the america military complex because money. At least it would have if American troops were in better shape, enlistments were dropping heavily, and troop fitness is dropping radically. The desire for the common man to die for his country has dropped significantly in Russia AND NATO countries. So you will soon see the following, America will try to rebuild "patriotism" prior to instituting a draft. This is why the pentagon is reviewing all psyops, they are about to reverse the social engineering psyops in motion such diversity and "woke". Russia will push religion to build morale on their side. I believe a draft in America will lead to disintegration, but only time will tell.

jollyllama 4y ago
I don't think you're far off with your first couple of points, but I don't think the USA will try conscription, precisely because it would have destabilizing effects you mention.
mint2 4y ago
> They also have been sending their b-c teams not their A-list because they wanted to save them That this comment claims this really says all one need about the comment. Russia Just admitted it was over extended and had exhausted its professional army by declaring a mobilization of reservists. Everyone clearly knows the professional army is the C list and it’s the reservists that are the true A listers. <heavy sarcasm>
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> The latest Ukrainian victories were due to NATO forces taking over so many core operations, it's basically Russia vs NATO. Evidence? NATO is sending a lot of materiel and weapons. NATO is helping with intelligence. If that's what you mean by "core operations", maybe I can see it. More than that? Let's see the evidence.

ThalesX 4y ago

Interesting read for anyone that might be interested: 2021 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: Ukraine BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND LABOR https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-human-... https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_UKRAINE-2021-HUMAN-RIGHTS-REPORT.pdf https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/313615_UKRA... (I love how the downvotes have already begun not even a minute in... how is this not context to the speech? Zealots...)

Blackthorn 4y ago
Hot damn, the whataboutisms are out in force on this article, and not even an hour in.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  I’d love to ask the residents of Bucha or Izium what they think about the relative respect for human rights between Russia and Ukraine but of course the Russian military invaded their land and then murdered large swaths of their population and then buried them in mass graves. These things are just the weakest deflections in service of a psychopathic dictator’s imperialistic war.
  - netmonk 4y ago
    Mickey what is the name of your drug dealer ? He sells good stuff it seems.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izium_mass_graves
      - netmonk 4y ago

nayroclade 4y ago

Apparently, the size of the mobilisation will be 300k people, so this isn't going to be an overwhelmingly large force. The speculation I've seen is that this move is about 1) stopping the attrition of professional soldiers as their contracts expire and 2) providing manpower in logistics and controlling the occupied areas, so as to allow more rest and rotation of front-line soldiers.

kranke155 4y ago
They invaded with less than 300k. It is doubtful that Ukraine has a similar number of professional soldiers (excluding Territorial Defence ). It’s possible that this will give them an overwhelming force.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Ukraine didn't have 300k when Russia invaded. They may have more now. Anyone have data? And, 300k without artillery, tanks, air support, and logistics isn't an overwhelming force. Does Russia have the rest of what it takes to make them an effective force?
  - orwin 4y ago
    No. They have less than 800 multipurpose and attack planes combined (because i don't want to explain it in another comment: they have air superiority, so their fighter plan count isn't relevant). If we consider Russian hardware as well maintained as France or US, it means 650 available planes max for offensive operations. A bit more than 50 planes are confirmed destroyed, so I'll round it up to 600. That means 300 sortie a day max (if each plane have 2 maintenance crew fulltime). But as the long-range air defense is effective, you cannot penetrate too deep, and that limit the efficiency. Ukraine is like twice the size of Irak, with more population and vegetation. Russia do have air superiority but they cannot action it. Hopefully for the conscripts, Putin just want to defend and wait it out . In this case, manpower is effective. Another way to use manpower is to assault continuously WW1 style, supported by artillery fire. This would be stupid.

ajl666 4y ago

It's sad to see how easily westerners are mislead by our own leaders, who ape Soviet contempt for constituents and maliciously ignore voter inputs. You should at least make an effort to see things from the Russian point of view. To say there's nothing valid in the Russian state's actions, is really idiotic. 1) Are post WW2 borders sacred? 2) The dissolution of the USSR was chaotic, unnegotiated, and basically due to the magnanimity of Gorbachev. 3) Therefore, post USSR space resembles post-colonial Africa: former co-nationals are now minorities, depending on which post-Soviet state one examines. Armenia and Azerbaijan are good examples. Oh, but the news didn't tell you to get upset about it yet, so you have no opinion? That's why these opinions on Ukraine are so unprincipled. 4) The Turks depopulated Ukraine via the slave trade. Russia conquered the land, pushed the Turks back, and colonized E Ukraine for themselves. 18th century stuff. What I want to know is why the wokester position (the official Western "Good Guy" position, otherwise known the Party Line Winston) finds the USA's existence an affront to Native Americans and Mexicans, Israel's existence an affront to Palestinians, but cares not one whit for Poland occupying half of historic Germany, Turkey's ongoing genocide of Armenians (They back Azerbaijan, and Turkey is also a NATO power), and Greeks (threatening to invade... read proper journalists and you'll know)? 5) The West did the same thing to Serbia. The West in fact helped with the Muslim genocide of Serbians. Kosovo is the origin of Serbian culture and the Muslims overran it in the last 400 years. If you weep for the Native Americans and Tibetans, then you should care about what happened in Serbia too. Worse, the precedent is the one that the Russians used as the pretext to invade Ukraine. 6) Crimea was given to Ukraine in the 1950s by Khrushchev. It was Tatar and then it was Russian. HOW IS THAT SACRED? The same international law the US breaks constantly? 7) Remember that post-Cold War Magnanimity by Gorby? Know how people keep saying 'uh oh, if Putin loses, he'll nuke us all?' Do you really think that political shift came from nowhere? The west has been attacking Russia ever since the Cold War ended. If western idiots (sadly, most of us) haven't recognized (or are too ignorant to even know about because you don't read) the damage, that's only because you do the same thing the Russians do: slavishly listen to leaders without actually questioning the fact-stack. The US broke the promise not to move NATO eastward. That was the original sin. That was not nothing. That was as aggressive as attacking Ukraine. The demographic decline of Russia is not war damage? The economic damage of allowing China into the WTO and not Russia (when they were trying to be good) is not war damage? The use of western financial institutions to pillage Russia and financialize and control its mineral assets, while at the same time encouraging the de-industrializing of Russia is not war damage? 8) The Russians stopped the Cold War, but the US and the West did not. 9) Now they are mobilizing. They can't do it like we do: the US uses war to pillage its own people. The Russians are mobilizing the only way they can: the old fashioned way. The Russians are pushing back the only way they can: the old fashioned way. 10) Everywhere I go, supposedly intelligent people act like citizens of Oceana who can't seem to remember what happened the prior news cycle and remember only what the Wokeing class demands. Everything else goes in the memory hole. 11) THE WEST IS JUST AS BAD! CYBERPUNK IS JUST AS SH!T AS FALLOUT! 12) I didn't want any of this. The time to have stopped this was in the 1990s when the Western Trojan horse known as Chubais was busy annihilating the Russian economy. We nurtured China because their slaves were going to make our masters more profits and turn the majority of Americans from a free people with trades into a poor, welfare dependent people from the noblesse oblige of our 'elites' who shipped our manufacturing overseas... Russia has resources, China has slaves. Russia didn't play along when we tried financializing their economy and pulling it into our orbit. So now it's war. 13) To all you stubborn ignorant dummies: Good job. You have caused global starvation, European economic collapse, the annihilation of Ukraine, and it all benefits... you? 14) Hacker News is filled with beneficiaries of US policies. You can rely on a man to not understand something when his paycheck is dependent on him not understanding. 15) Keep on downvoting. The truth is a virus and I hope it destroys your brains.

kranke155 4y ago

Is this even appropriate for HN? Is this related to tech somehow? Seems having this sort of post here, all it does is bring out Reddit level bad takes.

ROTMetro 4y ago
Funny that in all criticism of Russia on HK, every opposing post has to include reference to Reddit. You are not going to manipulate people so easily. 'Oh man, come on guys, you're sharing positions with those simple minded Reddit posters'. How about you just make an argument on it's merits, instead of injecting your own bad take?
- kranke155 4y ago
  How about limiting this forum to what it’s supposed to cover?
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. I would say Putin escalating a major war in the heart of Europe and his threats of nuclear warfare with the West fall under 'interesting new phenomenon'.

diimdeep 4y ago

Can anyone clarify something that I have recently heard in interview (Russian language)[1]: that U.S. citizens believe that U.S. defeated Nazis and won WW2, and not USSR. Is this in your experience is mostly true or false ? [1] https://youtu.be/Q0oRii7zV9A?t=1973 https://youtu.be/Q0oRii7zV9A?t=1973

generj 4y ago
The broadly accepted view is that the USSR won their front of the war using American supplies and Russian blood. And that the western fronts would have been far worse except for the Eastern front bleeding Germany dry. The US won against Japan essentially without help from the USSR.
- theironhammer 4y ago
  I would agree and add that the American and British soldiers were "lions lead by donkeys" and if not for the might of the American industrial machine supplying materiél the superior trained and leas German forces would've at least prevailed much longer than they did.
- frozencell 4y ago
  Fun facts: - Wall Street partly funded the Russian communism revolution.
freeone3000 4y ago
This isn't taken as factually true but is part of the US narrative, so it feels true even to people who were told about WWII. After all, the Allied Powers were fighting Germany, so USSR contributions feel limited, even if their contributions exceeded Allied ones.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Yes I believe this is true reflection of Western opinion. There was an article a while back that showed a much higher recognition of Soviet efforts and sacrifices in WW2 immedistely after the war ended but tapering away ever since.

Georgelemental 4y ago

Mobilization will hurt Putin politically in Russia. Much of his power and following is based on the belief that he is the only one who can provide stability for Russians—"Putin, the one who put an end to the chaos of the Gorbachev and Yeltsin years." But not mobilizing means losing the war, which he would not survive. So, a bitter pill but one he must swallow

stunt 4y ago

People on both sides of this debate are exploited by the war propaganda that both sides push. It doesn't matter which side you stand on today, if you think the solution to this problem is war instead of negotiation and peace, you are being abused by everything you read and hear.

nickpp 4y ago
If Russia would stop fighting, there would be no war. If Ukraine would stop fighting, there would be no Ukraine.
theironhammer 4y ago
Agreed but you have to negotiate for peace from a position of strength.