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Calling Ukraine "The Ukraine" is a Russian tactic to make Ukraine seem less like a country and more like a region. Quoting from wikipedia: > However, since Ukr

by camjw 4y ago

Calling Ukraine "The Ukraine" is a Russian tactic to make Ukraine seem less like a country and more like a region. Quoting from wikipedia: > However, since Ukraine's declaration of independence in 1991, [calling Ukraine "The Ukraine"] has become politicised and is now rarer, and style guides advise against its use. US ambassador William Taylor said that using "the Ukraine" implies disregard for Ukrainian sovereignty. The official Ukrainian position is that "the Ukraine" is incorrect, both grammatically and politically.

reaperducer 4y ago
He's probably not trying to marginalize Ukraine. Billions of people grew up with that language, and it just takes time to get used to the change. The world used to call Argentina "The Argentine," but that changed, too. There are a number of similar examples in the last hundred years or so. Not everything is overnight, and your own link states that the change in terminology is both political, and recent. And while Wikipedia states the change was 1991, it's not like every person on the planet got a memo in the mail the next day letting them know what the new, approved, language is. For millions, it's still newish information.
azangru 4y ago
> Calling Ukraine "The Ukraine" is a Russian tactic... This is just wrong. If you search for the word Ukraine on the Russian government site kremlin.ru (there is an English-language version), you will find that this word is used there without the article. I am sure you'll get the same results if you search RT's web site. The article isn't the Russians' doing, especially given that there aren't any articles in most Slavic languages, including Russian. It is a historical happenstance of the English language, probably back from the time when the name Ukraine was perceived as meaning borderland. People using it probably do so because they learnt the word decades ago.
- dandanua 4y ago
  Russians refer to Ukraine as a territory in their language by using preposition "на" instead of "в". They don't respect sovereignty of Ukraine in their language. "Ukraine" doesn't mean borderland, it's another Russian attitude with the aim to humiliate Ukrainian nation. You can also look at the map and see who is really a borderland of the civilized world.
  - azangru 4y ago
    > Russians refer to Ukraine as a territory in their language by using preposition "на" instead of "в". They don't respect sovereignty of Ukraine in their language. This is an old and complicated argument. The Russians have their language. In that language, for several centuries, probably as long as the word Ukraine existed in it, it was governed by the preposition "на". There are other Russian toponyms that are governed by the same preposition — Cuba, Caucasus, Manhattan, "the West", Middle East, "the East", etc. It really is a question of whether the language should change because of a new political status of Ukraine (and therefore all its speakers should change their linguistic habits); or whether this word should continue to be among the exceptions that take the preposition "на". The whole situation, in which people get annoyed about a grammatical factoid of another people's language is just... bizarre.
    - dandanua 4y ago
      It's not bizarre. It's one of the many factors that has led to the genocide of Ukrainians. Little things matter too. Surely, the main factor is that Russians disrespect everyone else too, including their own less lucky compatriots. Russia must be destroyed as a culture if they can't learn to behave as civilized humans, if they want to be enslavers only. Though, it looks like Putin is already succeeding in this task.
    - trhway 4y ago
      > It really is a question of whether the language should change because of a new political status of Ukraine (and therefore all its speakers should change their linguistic habits); or whether this word should continue to be among the exceptions that take the preposition "на". No. There is no need to change language. If in any given phrase one means Ukraine as a region, like Caucasus, then it is "на", if one means Ukraine as country then it is "в". With Ukraine becoming independent country most semantic contexts though from the "region context" have naturally become "country context". The issue here is that Russians to intentionally demonstrate their unrecognition and disrespect to Ukraine use "на" (as in the "region context") when they really speak about Ukraine as a country and thus, by Russian language rules, must have used "в". >The whole situation, in which people get annoyed about a grammatical factoid of another people's language is just... bizarre. It isn't annoyance. It is tens (actually looks more like early hundred) of thousands people dead for the reason that that factoid demonstrate - Russian refusal to recognize Ukrainian right to exist and to exist independent of Russia.
wink 4y ago
FWIW, in German it's actually used with the definite article since.. forever I guess and maybe it's the same in other languages. I happen to know you don't use "the Ukraine" in English, but it's a hard habit to shake off - so this may not even be a case of any propaganda. (Just looked up the wikipedia article and there's also no mention of this being applicable, but you know, wikipedia...)
_ph_ 4y ago
Besides not being a native speaker, I never thought about using an article with Ukraine. Now that you mention it, in German we always use an article with Ukraine, I never noticed it. But this is true for some other countries. Countries like USA, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland or Turkey are also always used with an article, I don't know what is the pattern behind it. All of those are certainly sovereign nations. So nothing was implied by using an article with Ukraine.
eadmund 4y ago
Nonsense! That’s just the name of the country in English.

by camjw 4y ago

reaperducer 4y ago

He's probably not trying to marginalize Ukraine. Billions of people grew up with that language, and it just takes time to get used to the change. The world used to call Argentina "The Argentine," but that changed, too. There are a number of similar examples in the last hundred years or so. Not everything is overnight, and your own link states that the change in terminology is both political, and recent. And while Wikipedia states the change was 1991, it's not like every person on the planet got a memo in the mail the next day letting them know what the new, approved, language is. For millions, it's still newish information.

azangru 4y ago

> Calling Ukraine "The Ukraine" is a Russian tactic... This is just wrong. If you search for the word Ukraine on the Russian government site kremlin.ru (there is an English-language version), you will find that this word is used there without the article. I am sure you'll get the same results if you search RT's web site. The article isn't the Russians' doing, especially given that there aren't any articles in most Slavic languages, including Russian. It is a historical happenstance of the English language, probably back from the time when the name Ukraine was perceived as meaning borderland. People using it probably do so because they learnt the word decades ago.

dandanua 4y ago
Russians refer to Ukraine as a territory in their language by using preposition "на" instead of "в". They don't respect sovereignty of Ukraine in their language. "Ukraine" doesn't mean borderland, it's another Russian attitude with the aim to humiliate Ukrainian nation. You can also look at the map and see who is really a borderland of the civilized world.
- azangru 4y ago
  > Russians refer to Ukraine as a territory in their language by using preposition "на" instead of "в". They don't respect sovereignty of Ukraine in their language. This is an old and complicated argument. The Russians have their language. In that language, for several centuries, probably as long as the word Ukraine existed in it, it was governed by the preposition "на". There are other Russian toponyms that are governed by the same preposition — Cuba, Caucasus, Manhattan, "the West", Middle East, "the East", etc. It really is a question of whether the language should change because of a new political status of Ukraine (and therefore all its speakers should change their linguistic habits); or whether this word should continue to be among the exceptions that take the preposition "на". The whole situation, in which people get annoyed about a grammatical factoid of another people's language is just... bizarre.
  - dandanua 4y ago
    It's not bizarre. It's one of the many factors that has led to the genocide of Ukrainians. Little things matter too. Surely, the main factor is that Russians disrespect everyone else too, including their own less lucky compatriots. Russia must be destroyed as a culture if they can't learn to behave as civilized humans, if they want to be enslavers only. Though, it looks like Putin is already succeeding in this task.
  - trhway 4y ago
    > It really is a question of whether the language should change because of a new political status of Ukraine (and therefore all its speakers should change their linguistic habits); or whether this word should continue to be among the exceptions that take the preposition "на". No. There is no need to change language. If in any given phrase one means Ukraine as a region, like Caucasus, then it is "на", if one means Ukraine as country then it is "в". With Ukraine becoming independent country most semantic contexts though from the "region context" have naturally become "country context". The issue here is that Russians to intentionally demonstrate their unrecognition and disrespect to Ukraine use "на" (as in the "region context") when they really speak about Ukraine as a country and thus, by Russian language rules, must have used "в". >The whole situation, in which people get annoyed about a grammatical factoid of another people's language is just... bizarre. It isn't annoyance. It is tens (actually looks more like early hundred) of thousands people dead for the reason that that factoid demonstrate - Russian refusal to recognize Ukrainian right to exist and to exist independent of Russia.

wink 4y ago

FWIW, in German it's actually used with the definite article since.. forever I guess and maybe it's the same in other languages. I happen to know you don't use "the Ukraine" in English, but it's a hard habit to shake off - so this may not even be a case of any propaganda. (Just looked up the wikipedia article and there's also no mention of this being applicable, but you know, wikipedia...)

_ph_ 4y ago

Besides not being a native speaker, I never thought about using an article with Ukraine. Now that you mention it, in German we always use an article with Ukraine, I never noticed it. But this is true for some other countries. Countries like USA, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland or Turkey are also always used with an article, I don't know what is the pattern behind it. All of those are certainly sovereign nations. So nothing was implied by using an article with Ukraine.

eadmund 4y ago

Nonsense! That’s just the name of the country in English.