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Don't destroy your mental/physical health for a shitty managed company, one time I had a project just like this, pushed it and it ended very badly - in a psychi

Don't destroy your mental/physical health for a shitty managed company, one time I had a project just like this, pushed it and it ended very badly - in a psychiatric hospital. Find a new job and move on, take the good devs with you so you don't lose the synergy you built together. Tell them exactly why you're all leaving, perhaps next time they won't have so many damn meetings. Most importantly - under no circumstances agree to work over 8 hours/day or weekends without them paying you double your usual rate. They must learn that shitty management has its price.

unsupp0rted 4y ago
I'm curious to hear the story
dahart 4y ago
> take the good devs with you > Tell them exactly why you're all leaving From many years in film and game development where crunch times were long and brutal, I totally understand (first hand, from experience) how bad this can get. I sympathize with the frustration. However, be very very careful with these two bits of advice. The first one (taking people with you) is sometimes illegal, and even where it’s not, it will not be taken lightly, it could lead to legal and harsh retaliatory consequences that will not be pleasant. The second one is also dangerous. Things you say when you leave can follow you out the door to your next job. You probably do not want your reference checks, or just people who know each other, to be spreading rumors that you’re combative and troubled regardless of the fact that poor management is at fault. The better advice IMO is to find the better job and move on quietly. Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work.
- WHATDOESIT 4y ago
  It's illegal to poach people (make them work for your company). It's not illegal to find a new job together with your friends. But sure, being quiet about it is an option too - choose based on the situation. And indeed, err on the side of safety.
  - fabianhjr 4y ago
    > It's illegal to poach people (make them work for your company) In most of the world (and where I live) it isn't, on the contrary having anti-poaching policies is illegal and resulted in a huge anti-competitive/wage-supression lawsuit: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/silicon-valleys-poaching-case-growing-debate-employee-mobility/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/silicon-valleys-... https://www.classaction.org/blog/silicon-valley-antipoaching-deal-rejected-by-judge https://www.classaction.org/blog/silicon-valley-antipoaching... What's even more egregious is that a group of people leaving to start something better together is part of how silicon valley got started: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Traitorous_eight https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Traitorous_eight
    - WHATDOESIT 4y ago
      Didn't know about that, thanks!
    - dahart 4y ago
      I was in the defendant class for one of these Silicon Valley film anti-poaching lawsuits. :) And I agree that companies, including the one I worked for, shouldn’t be able to agree to prevent hiring from each other. The main problem this caused was it made it harder for any individual to leave one company for another, with no poaching involved, and because of that (it was argued) it suppressed the general competitiveness and salaries of the employees. Do keep in mind that this case (companies agreeing they won’t hire from each other) is a bit different from an angry employee leaving and soliciting some friends to go with him to a new company. Like I said, it might be perfectly legal, and yet still cause you serious trouble if you do it. Some people have ended up a lot more frustrated after leaving because of things they did on the way out. It can work out well if you’re really in a position to start your own company and fight like the Traitorous Eight, but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous. Don’t take my word for it though.
      - fabianhjr 4y ago
        I agree that it is normally wise to keep in mind the power disparity and interconnection between individuals and corporations. (And that not because something is legal you will have a good time) > but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous Yeah, it is easier (both in effort and in future prospects) to keep a low profile. Though I was focusing on legality/acceptability of poaching/leaving as a group.
- gjvc 4y ago
  Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work. As an East Texas proverb states, “Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it will irritate the pig and frustrate you.”
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  > You probably do not want your reference checks Does anyone even check references anymore in tech? My last two jobs haven't. The most current one didn't even ask for any. I figured that they realized that candidates won't list someone who will provide a bad reference, so it's a waste of time.
  - philote 4y ago
    I hadn't had any references checked, much less even requested in probably a decade... that is, until my current job. So some do still do it, but apparently not many.
  - dahart 4y ago
    Employment and salary verification reference checks are common, I still receive them for ex employees of a small company started and sold years ago. It happened at my last few jobs in tech. BTW, they don’t have to ask you for any, all they have to do is call the company listed on your resume. There are also informal “reference checks” though, where people who know each other talk about you, and even these are just one of many ways that your reputation can follow you. Leaving behind something very noteworthy like telling your bosses off and taking other employees with you is a good way to have people sharing stories about you.
Buttons840 4y ago
> Don't destroy your mental/physical health for a shitty managed company Yes. Don't be me. I pushed myself too hard and got shingles* in my mid 30s, and activated my celiac disease (I've always had the celiac gene, but I find it quite the coincident that symptoms first showed up during this time) all within a 2 month timespan. A very stressful time, and it feels like those 2 months ruined my life, and it all happened so fast. Beware. * Shingles was weird. Started with a weird feeling in deep deep tissue, then later a surface level rash with itchiness and numbness that comes and goes. There was one evening where the rash had flashes of extreme pain, just two or three times, and I came to realize why people with severe cases describe it as the most painful thing they've experienced. Fortunately, my case was mild and cleared on its own without much pain.
- garrickvanburen 4y ago
  Yes. Most painful thing ever. Inescapable pain.
- adave 4y ago
  Glad you talked about it in detail and explained.Most folks dont share so you don't know until its too late.
- elwell 4y ago
  I wonder how it compares with Hell's Itch / Suicide Itch. It can drive you mad. The cure for me was some Benadryl. Burning hot showers help for a few minutes too. https://www.reddit.com/r/HellsItch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HellsItch/

unsupp0rted 4y ago

I'm curious to hear the story

dahart 4y ago

> take the good devs with you > Tell them exactly why you're all leaving From many years in film and game development where crunch times were long and brutal, I totally understand (first hand, from experience) how bad this can get. I sympathize with the frustration. However, be very very careful with these two bits of advice. The first one (taking people with you) is sometimes illegal, and even where it’s not, it will not be taken lightly, it could lead to legal and harsh retaliatory consequences that will not be pleasant. The second one is also dangerous. Things you say when you leave can follow you out the door to your next job. You probably do not want your reference checks, or just people who know each other, to be spreading rumors that you’re combative and troubled regardless of the fact that poor management is at fault. The better advice IMO is to find the better job and move on quietly. Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work.

WHATDOESIT 4y ago
It's illegal to poach people (make them work for your company). It's not illegal to find a new job together with your friends. But sure, being quiet about it is an option too - choose based on the situation. And indeed, err on the side of safety.
- fabianhjr 4y ago
  > It's illegal to poach people (make them work for your company) In most of the world (and where I live) it isn't, on the contrary having anti-poaching policies is illegal and resulted in a huge anti-competitive/wage-supression lawsuit: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/silicon-valleys-poaching-case-growing-debate-employee-mobility/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/silicon-valleys-... https://www.classaction.org/blog/silicon-valley-antipoaching-deal-rejected-by-judge https://www.classaction.org/blog/silicon-valley-antipoaching... What's even more egregious is that a group of people leaving to start something better together is part of how silicon valley got started: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Traitorous_eight https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Traitorous_eight
  - WHATDOESIT 4y ago
    Didn't know about that, thanks!
  - dahart 4y ago
    I was in the defendant class for one of these Silicon Valley film anti-poaching lawsuits. :) And I agree that companies, including the one I worked for, shouldn’t be able to agree to prevent hiring from each other. The main problem this caused was it made it harder for any individual to leave one company for another, with no poaching involved, and because of that (it was argued) it suppressed the general competitiveness and salaries of the employees. Do keep in mind that this case (companies agreeing they won’t hire from each other) is a bit different from an angry employee leaving and soliciting some friends to go with him to a new company. Like I said, it might be perfectly legal, and yet still cause you serious trouble if you do it. Some people have ended up a lot more frustrated after leaving because of things they did on the way out. It can work out well if you’re really in a position to start your own company and fight like the Traitorous Eight, but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous. Don’t take my word for it though.
    - fabianhjr 4y ago
      I agree that it is normally wise to keep in mind the power disparity and interconnection between individuals and corporations. (And that not because something is legal you will have a good time) > but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous Yeah, it is easier (both in effort and in future prospects) to keep a low profile. Though I was focusing on legality/acceptability of poaching/leaving as a group.
gjvc 4y ago
Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work. As an East Texas proverb states, “Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it will irritate the pig and frustrate you.”
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
> You probably do not want your reference checks Does anyone even check references anymore in tech? My last two jobs haven't. The most current one didn't even ask for any. I figured that they realized that candidates won't list someone who will provide a bad reference, so it's a waste of time.
- philote 4y ago
  I hadn't had any references checked, much less even requested in probably a decade... that is, until my current job. So some do still do it, but apparently not many.
- dahart 4y ago
  Employment and salary verification reference checks are common, I still receive them for ex employees of a small company started and sold years ago. It happened at my last few jobs in tech. BTW, they don’t have to ask you for any, all they have to do is call the company listed on your resume. There are also informal “reference checks” though, where people who know each other talk about you, and even these are just one of many ways that your reputation can follow you. Leaving behind something very noteworthy like telling your bosses off and taking other employees with you is a good way to have people sharing stories about you.

Buttons840 4y ago

> Don't destroy your mental/physical health for a shitty managed company Yes. Don't be me. I pushed myself too hard and got shingles* in my mid 30s, and activated my celiac disease (I've always had the celiac gene, but I find it quite the coincident that symptoms first showed up during this time) all within a 2 month timespan. A very stressful time, and it feels like those 2 months ruined my life, and it all happened so fast. Beware. * Shingles was weird. Started with a weird feeling in deep deep tissue, then later a surface level rash with itchiness and numbness that comes and goes. There was one evening where the rash had flashes of extreme pain, just two or three times, and I came to realize why people with severe cases describe it as the most painful thing they've experienced. Fortunately, my case was mild and cleared on its own without much pain.

garrickvanburen 4y ago
Yes. Most painful thing ever. Inescapable pain.
adave 4y ago
Glad you talked about it in detail and explained.Most folks dont share so you don't know until its too late.
elwell 4y ago
I wonder how it compares with Hell's Itch / Suicide Itch. It can drive you mad. The cure for me was some Benadryl. Burning hot showers help for a few minutes too. https://www.reddit.com/r/HellsItch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HellsItch/