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Your best source on the suicide nets is from 11 years ago?

by atonse 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago
The parent was claiming that the suicide nets are 'misinformation'. Apple themselves admit to suggesting the use of nets to avoid factory suicides at Foxconn plants - that link serves purely to dispel the idea that it's misinformation.
- Retric 4y ago
  Yet, your statement makes it clear that Apple didn’t install nets at Foxconn’s factory. So the original statement was objectively false as was the implication it was needed when US collages have higher suicide rates. Apple doesn’t have real control over Foxconn any more than Microsoft, Sony, Google, Nintendo, etc who all use them, but people where competing for those jobs.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Right. It's "wrong" in the sense that Apple pays another company to deal with horrifying working conditions in their absence.
    - Retric 4y ago
      That’s not really what’s going on ether, the CCP doesn’t let foreign companies setup and run factories inside of China. So Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Apple, Nintendo, Nokia, Sony etc all end up using Foxconn to manufacture electronics at scale. Foxconn is actually slightly above average for Chinese manufacturing, but that’s really saying more about working conditions in China than anything positive about Foxconn.
      - sneak 4y ago
        Foxconn is a foreign corporation that set up and runs factories inside China; they are from Taiwan.
        Retric 4y ago
        Not quite, the corporate structure is a little complicated but they are sort of made up of separate companies. Which is why “Foxconn Industrial Internet Co Ltd” for example has it’s own stock and is located at “2F C1 Foxconn Technology Park 2 Donghuan 2 Road Longhua Stre Shenzhen, 518109 China” https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/601138:CH?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/601138:CH?leadSource=uverify... China isn’t going to let a foreign company operate an ISP in China, but a China/Foreign partnership is acceptable.
    - Firmwarrior 4y ago
      This whole Foxconn suicide net thing is really screwed up. I was there in person working for another US tech company, not Apple, but in the same Shenzhen factory compound during the big hubbub. It wasn't nearly as bad as the news reported. 1. Foxconn at its worst was having fewer suicides per-capita among its workers than most populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis (sourced from ABC News and The Economist) The rest is anecdotal first-hand data from me, so feel free to ignore it: 2. The working conditions were bad, but not THAT bad. It was a shitty factory job where you were under a lot of scrutiny, but probably not as much as working at Amazon today. 3. The pay at those Foxconn jobs was great. People were making multiples of what they could earn back home for way less effort. Foxconn factory workers thought of themselves as hot shit, much like factory technicians used to think of themselves in the USA before all those jobs disappeared. It looked like there was a nice corporate ladder you could work your way up, too, since they'd filter things through multiple layers of increasingly-elite technicians/engineers on their way to me. The place looked like a lot like a college campus when I was there. Tons of young, happy-looking people working hard and getting paid well for it. IMO this all stems back to that debunked and retracted NPR report talking about armed guards and a prison-like atmosphere. The worst thing I had to deal with in Shenzhen was there not being enough butter in the cakes at the factory's onsite bakery when I bought my coworkers a couple of big birthday cakes.
    - newtritious 4y ago
      The working conditions are not horrifying. That’s the misinformation. The suicide rate at Foxconn when the suicide nets were installed was lower than the average at US colleges. Everything about this story is just sensationalism.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        The horrifying working conditions are more of a reference to the children and political prisoners of China who are forced to work in factories for Apple suppliers.
        Dylan16807 4y ago
        ...so a completely separate accusation from the suicide nets this subthread is about?
        newtritious 4y ago
        No, you said it in reference to suicide nets. Nobody mentioned children and political prisoners before now. Children and political prisoners may be used as forced labor in China, but pretending that has something to do with Apple in particular is more misinformation. Apple have programs in place to try to prevent this.
        dkonofalski 4y ago
        So now you're just moving the goalposts of this discussion because it's been shown that what you've said is, in fact, misinformation? It's really fruitless to engage with you.
- dkonofalski 4y ago
  It is misinformation. Apple isn't the company whose employees are doing it and Apple is not ignoring these issues with their supplier. They regularly audit them, they regularly shift away to other suppliers when their audit remediation isn't followed (see their move to TSMC), and Apple also doesn't use child labor. You're attempting to dispel the misinformation you posted with more misinformation?
treeman79 4y ago
They got really serious about ending issues after bad publicity.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  They are a modern multi-national corporation. They don’t care about anything until it hits their bottom line. I don’t really understand why so many commenters go out of their way to defend Apple for free here. They have a paid PR department for that.
  - dkonofalski 4y ago
    We're not defending Apple. We're against misinformation. In the same way that people hurt the "Right to Repair" movement by claiming that Apple sues third-party repair stores merely for existing (they don't, they only sue for IP infringement), this misinformation hurts this cause because it makes it easy for people to ignore it. If you can easily disprove an accusation like this, it makes it easy to ignore other accusations coming from the same sources or surrounding the same arguments.
waboremo 4y ago
You can read more about it in "Dying for an iPhone: Apple, Foxconn, and The Lives of China's Workers" by Jenny Chan, Mark Selden, and Ngai Pun. Published in 2020.
- dkonofalski 4y ago
  How does the publication date of the book affect the timeframe where the incidents occurred? The book is still only referencing events from over 11 years ago.

Your best source on the suicide nets is from 11 years ago?

by atonse 4y ago

Your best source on the suicide nets is from 11 years ago?

The parent was claiming that the suicide nets are 'misinformation'. Apple themselves admit to suggesting the use of nets to avoid factory suicides at Foxconn plants - that link serves purely to dispel the idea that it's misinformation.

Retric 4y ago
Yet, your statement makes it clear that Apple didn’t install nets at Foxconn’s factory. So the original statement was objectively false as was the implication it was needed when US collages have higher suicide rates. Apple doesn’t have real control over Foxconn any more than Microsoft, Sony, Google, Nintendo, etc who all use them, but people where competing for those jobs.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Right. It's "wrong" in the sense that Apple pays another company to deal with horrifying working conditions in their absence.
  - Retric 4y ago
    That’s not really what’s going on ether, the CCP doesn’t let foreign companies setup and run factories inside of China. So Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Apple, Nintendo, Nokia, Sony etc all end up using Foxconn to manufacture electronics at scale. Foxconn is actually slightly above average for Chinese manufacturing, but that’s really saying more about working conditions in China than anything positive about Foxconn.
    - sneak 4y ago
      Foxconn is a foreign corporation that set up and runs factories inside China; they are from Taiwan.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Not quite, the corporate structure is a little complicated but they are sort of made up of separate companies. Which is why “Foxconn Industrial Internet Co Ltd” for example has it’s own stock and is located at “2F C1 Foxconn Technology Park 2 Donghuan 2 Road Longhua Stre Shenzhen, 518109 China” https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/601138:CH?leadSource=uverify%20wall https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/601138:CH?leadSource=uverify... China isn’t going to let a foreign company operate an ISP in China, but a China/Foreign partnership is acceptable.
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    This whole Foxconn suicide net thing is really screwed up. I was there in person working for another US tech company, not Apple, but in the same Shenzhen factory compound during the big hubbub. It wasn't nearly as bad as the news reported. 1. Foxconn at its worst was having fewer suicides per-capita among its workers than most populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#Analysis (sourced from ABC News and The Economist) The rest is anecdotal first-hand data from me, so feel free to ignore it: 2. The working conditions were bad, but not THAT bad. It was a shitty factory job where you were under a lot of scrutiny, but probably not as much as working at Amazon today. 3. The pay at those Foxconn jobs was great. People were making multiples of what they could earn back home for way less effort. Foxconn factory workers thought of themselves as hot shit, much like factory technicians used to think of themselves in the USA before all those jobs disappeared. It looked like there was a nice corporate ladder you could work your way up, too, since they'd filter things through multiple layers of increasingly-elite technicians/engineers on their way to me. The place looked like a lot like a college campus when I was there. Tons of young, happy-looking people working hard and getting paid well for it. IMO this all stems back to that debunked and retracted NPR report talking about armed guards and a prison-like atmosphere. The worst thing I had to deal with in Shenzhen was there not being enough butter in the cakes at the factory's onsite bakery when I bought my coworkers a couple of big birthday cakes.
  - newtritious 4y ago
    The working conditions are not horrifying. That’s the misinformation. The suicide rate at Foxconn when the suicide nets were installed was lower than the average at US colleges. Everything about this story is just sensationalism.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      The horrifying working conditions are more of a reference to the children and political prisoners of China who are forced to work in factories for Apple suppliers.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        ...so a completely separate accusation from the suicide nets this subthread is about?
      - newtritious 4y ago
        No, you said it in reference to suicide nets. Nobody mentioned children and political prisoners before now. Children and political prisoners may be used as forced labor in China, but pretending that has something to do with Apple in particular is more misinformation. Apple have programs in place to try to prevent this.
      - dkonofalski 4y ago
        So now you're just moving the goalposts of this discussion because it's been shown that what you've said is, in fact, misinformation? It's really fruitless to engage with you.
dkonofalski 4y ago
It is misinformation. Apple isn't the company whose employees are doing it and Apple is not ignoring these issues with their supplier. They regularly audit them, they regularly shift away to other suppliers when their audit remediation isn't followed (see their move to TSMC), and Apple also doesn't use child labor. You're attempting to dispel the misinformation you posted with more misinformation?

treeman79 4y ago

They got really serious about ending issues after bad publicity.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
They are a modern multi-national corporation. They don’t care about anything until it hits their bottom line. I don’t really understand why so many commenters go out of their way to defend Apple for free here. They have a paid PR department for that.
- dkonofalski 4y ago
  We're not defending Apple. We're against misinformation. In the same way that people hurt the "Right to Repair" movement by claiming that Apple sues third-party repair stores merely for existing (they don't, they only sue for IP infringement), this misinformation hurts this cause because it makes it easy for people to ignore it. If you can easily disprove an accusation like this, it makes it easy to ignore other accusations coming from the same sources or surrounding the same arguments.

waboremo 4y ago

You can read more about it in "Dying for an iPhone: Apple, Foxconn, and The Lives of China's Workers" by Jenny Chan, Mark Selden, and Ngai Pun. Published in 2020.

dkonofalski 4y ago
How does the publication date of the book affect the timeframe where the incidents occurred? The book is still only referencing events from over 11 years ago.