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‘Serial’ case: Adnan Syed released, conviction tossed

224 points by djoldman 4y ago

aardvarkr 4y ago
Just goes to show what can happen when you get featured in a viral hit podcast. That’s a great outcome for him but I shudder to think about what it tells us about our judicial system.
- BadassFractal 4y ago
  There was a similar case in Italy regarding its own version of the 90s satanic panic, which led to dozens of kids separated from their parents, parents committing suicide from shame and grief, an overall travesty of justice. Until Pablo Trincia made a podcast out of it and conducted an investigation the case was considered closed. The podcast entirely overturned it two decades later, reuniting many of the kids (now adults) with their legally estranged parents and sending a bunch of people to jail for intentional malpractice: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/polis/2021/08/04/investigative-podcasts-revelation-through-emotional-engagement/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/polis/2021/08/04/investigative-podca...
- dayvid 4y ago
  Serial is still one of the best true crime podcasts, because the case has so much more underneath the surface. One example is this podcast going over a cleared suspects apparently falsified alibi records (his mom who was a manager at his store chain and may have doctored his work record to prevent police going after him): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l6dApX2rIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l6dApX2rIY The main summary points are here, taken from this reddit page (which links to the primary sources) https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xea7pu/here_is_the_official_motion_to_vacate_adnan_syeds/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xea7pu/here_...: 1. Two new suspects that were not properly ruled out. 2. One of the suspects had a) threatened to kill the victim and b) provided motives for the threat. 3. The victim's car was located directly behind one of those suspects relative's house. 4. One of the suspects attacked a woman in her vehicle, engaged in serial rape and assault, engaged in violence against women he knew, and was improperly ruled out. 5. Incoming call data was determined to be completely unreliable, as the network sends the signal through multiple towers and the billing records can show the last tower a phone connected to instead of the one it is currently on. 6. Kristina Vinson said she would not have missed a class at the same time she said Jay and Adnan were at her house, which showed that her recollection of what day Jay and Adnan had visited was wrong. 7. Because Jay had told numerous lies and versions of events to detectives, his testimony was only relied upon because the cell records and Vinson's testimony corroborated it. Without those, his testimony does not stand on its own. Thus, they could not have secured a conviction. 8. One of the lead detectives on the case engaged in egregious misconduct in another case, resulting in a wrongful conviction and 17 years of incarceration.
  - bryan0 4y ago
    I listened this podcast when it first came out, so I’m probably misremembering this, but the key thing about the case to me was point 7: They had detailed witness testimony which fit the evidence AND the witness was able to show the police the location of the victim’s car which backed up his story. So it is hard to explain another version of events where the witness was not actually involved in the crime. I’m curious if any of this new evidence points to him as being involved.
- jfengel 4y ago
  Even "great outcome for him" seems like a stretch. That podcast was six years ago. He has been in jail for 22 years, more than half of his life. It's hard to imagine where he goes with his life from here; I wish him the best of luck. That's the "great" outcome of a one-in-a-million burst of publicity. Everybody else has it much, much worse.
- socialismisok 4y ago
  Our justice system is pretty busted, to be honest. And it's end to end busted - we trust police too much and with too much power, we don't have enough public defenders to protect everyone, we have long backlogs of cases, court fees and fines can be unending even if you are innocent (to say nothing about civil asset forfeiture), people are goaded into plea deals for crimes they don't commit, our jury selection process leaves a lot to be desired, our judges have done things like make deals to get a financial kickback for everyone they send to jail, our sentences are too long for minor crimes, our prisons are dangerously overcrowded making prison basically psychological and physical torture, we invest almost nothing on reducing recidivism, we fail to support inmates post incarceration and make it hard for them to find work, and we generally stigmatize anyone who has had a brush with the system. All of the above plus the racial and income inequality, nonsense war on drugs, etc. Yeah, I'd say we should all shudder quite a bit more about our judicial system.
  - wowokay 4y ago
    To be honest I don’t understand how it’s thought that police have to much power. Especially since every case makes it’s way in front of a judge.
    - ziddoap 4y ago
      A case eventually making its way to a judge isn't really a counter-argument to how much power police have. Things like asset forfeiture, qualified immunity, etc. are all pretty strong arguments that police have too much power. Not to mention all of the cases where someone innocent is killed by police, where the victim doesn't get to go in front of a judge because they are dead.
    - neaden 4y ago
      Something like 95% of cases end in a plea deal, where a judges involvement is pretty minimal.
      - banannaise 4y ago
        To expand on this, plea deals are most common for poor defendants. The police convince a magistrate to set cash bail the defendant can't pay, and the defendant has the choice of taking a guilty plea for a "lesser charge" or sitting in jail for months until the case can be tried, at which point they are defended by an overworked, overwhelmed public defender. In many cases, the potential sentence for these cases is exceeded by the time they would actually spend in jail waiting for the trial; even being found guilty would result in time served. In these cases, the plea deal is literally a lesser sentence than being found not guilty.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  His conviction is vacated but they can put him on trial again.
  - bigmattystyles 4y ago
    I doubt that will happen unless something else is revealed as the prosecutors are the ones that asked for the conviction to be vacated.
    - bruceb 4y ago
      There is a third possibility, he pleads guilty to time served. He was a minor when the murder happened. He pleads, gets 25 years, with time served + good behavior, he never actually goes back to prison.
      - bigmattystyles 4y ago
        Right, I was even wondering about an Alford plea.
        bruceb 4y ago
        yes, this is what I meant. A no contest type of plea. He can say he is pleading guilty because he has spent 20+ years in prison and just wants to be/stay out, not that he is guilty. State can say he is guilty but he has spent 20+ years in prison so we are agreeing to this in order save taxpayer $ and move on. I remember listening to Serial and thinking Adnan Syed's advocate Rabia Chaudry seemed more convinced of his innocence than he was. Like he was maintaining his innocence for his family then she came along and started pushing harder to get him out and he was along for the ride. Victims don't always act as we might expect. So that might just be the way he is. Hopefully concrete proof will come out to say exactly who it was. I hope this for the family of Hae Min Lee. But is possible it never does.
        micromacrofoot 4y ago
- dekhn 4y ago
  Periodically I go back and check on Mumia Abu Jamal. Yep, still in jail [previously, I had said "on death row"]. He had far more coverage but I guess it happened before things went viral.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    Mumia Abu Jamal is still in prison but he is not on death row.
  - 8kingDreux8 4y ago
    He's no longer on death row for what it's worth. He was moved to gen pop in 2012. Still incarcerated, but not on death row. " In 2011, the prosecution agreed to a sentence of life imprisonment without parole. He entered the general prison population early the following year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal
  - ars 4y ago
    I read the Wikipedia article on him, and I don't see why you think he's innocent? Other than an automatic assumption of racism there's nothing in there that would make me think it was a bad trial. This isn't a case of mistaken identity - he was shot by the person he shot. He had a gun that had been discharged 5 times. What am I missing? What's his explanation for having fired 5 times? All I saw was a vague claim that police shot him randomly as he crossed the street.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      I didn't say I think he was innocent- I have no idea. My only point was that there was a "free mumia" movement that also pointed out problems with the legal case, such that there was no airtight prosecution that would have led to the resulting death penalty.
- rgovostes 4y ago
  > I shudder to think about what it tells us about our judicial system. Coincidentally, this is the general topic of season 3 of Serial.
- nostromo 4y ago
  If you're worried primarily about wrongful convictions, don't forget that we only solve 50% of murders in the US. Wrongful convictions are tragic, but the 50% of murderers that are free is also tragic. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/07/police-murder-clearance-rate/661500/ https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/07/poli...
robga 4y ago
Serial was blowout success, but flawed in many ways. For me, chief amongst these is not updating the podcast with new (and potentially exculpatory) information as it came to light over the years. What really progressed the case was the Undisclosed podcast [0]. Rabia Chaudry, a childhood friend of Adnan and an attorney, first took Adnan's story to Sarah Koenig, who documented it in the Serial podcast. But in Undisclosed, Rabia and her colleagues Colin Miller and Susan Simpson dissected the case with scalpel, found new evidence, and ultimately set the groundwork for today's result. Undisclosed stuck with it, and have covered other similar cases. Their twitter [1] says they've had 400m+ downloads, which is more than Serial, albeit over many series. If you liked Serial, or even if you didn't but do like True Crime, go check out Undisclosed. If long podcasts are not your thing, HBO's The Case Against Adnan Syed [2] is quite information rich across just 4 episodes. [0] https://undisclosed-podcast.com/episodes/season-1/ https://undisclosed-podcast.com/episodes/season-1/ [1] https://twitter.com/Undisclosedpod https://twitter.com/Undisclosedpod [2] https://www.hbo.com/the-case-against-adnan-syed https://www.hbo.com/the-case-against-adnan-syed
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  I tried a bit of Undisclosed but it was... too much for me. In Serial, I was able to keep all the details of the case straight in my head, but Undisclosed went too far. That said, their objective wasn't to entertain and I respect that.
- orblivion 4y ago
  Wow, lucky kid that his case got this much attention. It can't be the only ambiguous case out there.
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    There are many thousands more.
  - skinnymuch 4y ago
    He's a 41 year old man now.
- 4y ago
blobbers 4y ago
'Serial' was the podcast that launched all podcasts. It was the defining podcast. It isn't that it was hyper monetized or incredibly financially successful; simply it showed that the audience was there. It has over 340 million listens as of 2018. With this eviction of conviction, I suspect that number will be over a billion. It is fitting that it has come full circle and fulfilled the ultimate purpose of investigative journalism: to shine a light on a small part of the world that otherwise would be ignored... and maybe right a wrong.
- jbpnoy6fifty 4y ago
  If interested, there was an HBO documentary that covered his case after Serial. “The Case Against Adnan Syed 2019 ‧ Documentary ‧ 1 season” on HBO max
- geuis 4y ago
  > 'Serial' was the podcast that launched all podcasts Sorry, but this statement is objectively wrong. Podcasts have existed for close to 20 years in the way we understand them today. Serial may have helped to popularize podcasts, but in no way was original.
  - blamazon 4y ago
    I think that commenter may have not been that literal and meant something more along the lines of "made podcasts more mainstream in an exponential manner." I know plenty of people in my life who weren't podcast people at that time but were constantly talking about it or walking around saying "mail... keemp?" as a joke. (A reference to Serial)
  - LeonB 4y ago
    They’re using hyperbole as a device. It’s not meant to be “literally” true.
  - blobbers 4y ago
    Indeed you’re very right! Not the original, but Serial contained all the elements that made a podcast mainstream and proved it out as a real business. Prior to it they were indie.
indigodaddy 4y ago
When I finished the podcast I was not at all convinced of his innocence. For me was 50/50 or even 60/40 against innocence. Just my takeaway/opinion of course.. EDIT However, reading both of the AP News articles on this now, it does serve to sway me more toward his innocence. Crazy that the prosecutors withheld this at that time.. Par for the course unfortunately I guess. Seems as though the SA office is trying to do the right thing now, and appears they will continue investigating, and hopefully if appropriate, may deem that the next best step is to drop his case fully and prosecute the other now-uncovered suspects.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  I think the wrong bar is being evaluated, its important to get the correct person off the streets. I was not satisfied - and am still not satisfied - that any of this is occurring. So that exempts Adnan Syed as well and means he should be released.
- advantager 4y ago
  I remember feeling similarly. I also don't remember feeling as though he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    > guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. How the American Legal System is supposed to work, not as a way to punish people who 'look guilty'.
- oconnor663 4y ago
  > For me was 50/50 or even 60/40 against innocence. Totally, but the standard for conviction is "beyond a reasonable doubt". By that standard, a 40% chance of innocence means "not guilty". I don't know whether the law has ever translated "reasonable doubt" into a specific percentage, but I have to imagine it's less than 10%?
  - indigodaddy 4y ago
    I don’t disagree. I guess it’s kind of like an additional psychological bias that one plays into when he’s already been convicted and in prison.
doitLP 4y ago
For a hilarious lampooning of true crime podcasts, check out The Onion’s podcast “A Very Fatal Murder”. Truly a great piece of satire: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-very-fatal-murder/id1333714430 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-very-fatal-murder/id...
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Not a podcast, but there's also the Netflix mockumentary series "American Vandal".
  - scoofy 4y ago
    American Vandal may be my favorite piece of satire ever made. It mocks true crime shows... by being an extremely good true crime show. It demonstrates well that it's not the content, but the presentation that makes it so compelling.
    - caf 4y ago
      Well, not actually "true".
- wayne 4y ago
  'Only Murders in the Building' starring Martin Short, Steve Martin, and Selena Gomez playing podcasters in a Hulu show is also amazing.
  - caf 4y ago
    Only Murders in the Building is like American Vandal meets Agatha Christie.
legitster 4y ago
I'll be honest and say I found the podcast rather frustrating. Koenig was clearly an outsider to the legal system, and had the benefit of telling a different, big long narrative. But at the end of it, I don't know if it was any more or less truthful than the first one. It was still built on old memories, circumstantial evidence, and bias (she even admitted she only started the investigation because she found Adnan so charming). And the interview with Jay after the podcast especially scrambled my thoughts - I found him really compelling too! And there was a lot of stuff the podcast left out without telling you! Over 12 episodes! So in the end, I honestly don't know about Adnan! I don't know if the case against him was actually weak or if there was just enough of an army of hole pokers who could have poked through anything.
- shishy 4y ago
  > One of the suspects had threatened Lee, saying “he would make her (Ms. Lee) disappear. He would kill her,” according to the filing. > “Given the stunning lack of reliable evidence implicating Mr. Syed, coupled with increasing evidence pointing to other suspects, this unjust conviction cannot stand,” said Assistant Public Defender Erica Suter, Mr. Syed’s attorney and, Director of the Innocence Project Clinic. “Mr. Syed is grateful that this information has finally seen the light of day and looks forward to his day in court.” > The suspects were known persons at the time of the original investigation and were not properly ruled out nor disclosed to the defense, prosecutors said. source: https://apnews.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-baltimore-prosecutors-c6ee72fa85c79c1bdf7b5486ea762010 https://apnews.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-baltimore-p... I think this is enough to justify letting him get out and they can decide if they want to do another trial. That's a pretty important miss on the prosecutors originally and the other suspects should have been ruled out before focusing all on him. EDIT: Also, on a personal level and in a normative sense, it's been 20 years and he should be allowed to re-enter society and of all the crazy people we let back, he's probably one of the safer choices for rehabilitation.
  - legitster 4y ago
    I would love to hear from an actual neutral legal party if that's actually the case. Adnan had a motive and a strong testimony against him from an accomplice who's story had checked out. Is it actually a big miss to not rule out every possible suspect? But on your broader point, I largely agree that anyone freed from unnecessarily long and potentially unjust prison sentences is a good thing.
indigodaddy 4y ago
Wondering if they have those 2 other now uncovered suspects in custody? If not, would they not now skidaddle at the soonest??
syntaxing 4y ago
I forgot the exact numbers we used for this exercise but we did a standard hypothesis test on wrongful convictions in my stat 101 class and even mathematically, only 95% convictions are “rightful”. So essentially there is 5% innocent people. The 5% mainly consist of the poor and/or non-white.
warner25 4y ago
I'm wondering if anyone here has real insight into the economics of his situation at this point. On one hand it seems like his life has been ruined by the state after spending 20+ years in prison, costing his family everything in legal fees, and forever being associated with this murder. I feel like anyone wrongfully convicted (or even just accused) should have some serious recourse but I suspect that there isn't any. On the other hand, can he realistically make out better than most of us (i.e. turning this into a mid-7 or 8-figure fortune and living happily ever after) by getting book / movie / TV / speaking deals now that he's out?
- jmkd 4y ago
  I don't have real insight but I have real hope that your sentiment comes true at least in part, and that Adnan is both exonerated and compensated appropriately. Listening to Serial from episode 1 you cannot ignore the fact that it wouldn't be compelling (or wouldn't have been researched or serialised) if the suspect's guilt was clear and unequivocal.
- arbitrage 4y ago
  No. Going to prison in the United States ruins your life.
- xenadu02 4y ago
  Restitution for a wrongful conviction varies dramatically on a state-by-state basis. In some states you need a ruling of actual innocence by a court, not just vacation of conviction, to get compensation. That high bar can make it impractical to get compensation. Other states have special boards or commissions that review vacated convictions. Prosecutors declining to re-file charges or even recommending vacation of the conviction is usually a really good sign though - commissions/boards and courts still give them a lot of deference. The amount varies but federally it is $50k for each year incarcerated. CA is around 50k. WA pays 200k. NV pays 50k/yr for up to 10, 75k/yr for 10+. Some states and the feds have adders if you were on death row: +100k/yr federal, CO +50k/yr on death row. Others have adders for every year on parole or having to register as a sex offender (KS/WA +25k). And some states offer tuition assistance (or full ride), healthcare, counseling services, and so forth. As for this case... Maryland used to require a pardon from the Governor or a "writ of actual innocence" so in practice it was impossible to get compensation. From 1984-2020 the Board of Public Works only compensated 5 people and from 2004-2019 they didn't accept a single claim. But they changed the process in 2021 to make it easier... now an Administrative Law Judge considers the circumstances and the compensation pays the daily median wage for each day in prison (around 41k/yr). Maryland also now gives healthcare coverage, job training, housing assistance, and so on.
adultSwim 4y ago
Does anyone know if the new evidence exonorates him or if it simply proved that the case and trial were mishandled?
- achr2 4y ago
  Only procedural, no exoneration at all.
- stevenwoo 4y ago
  Brady violation by original prosecution team (they did not let the defense know of other evidence). The current prosecution did the right thing.
- paxys 4y ago
  He is not exonerated. The state has 30 days to decide whether they want to try him again, and I believe are waiting on some DNA test results to make that determination.
- locusofself 4y ago
  I'm so curious as to what evidence there is or isn't. I hope he is re-tried unless there is some bombshell evidence, as I believe he is guilty from what I know as a laymen consumer of the media content..
achr2 4y ago
I believe Adnan is factually guilty. Undoubtedly there were significant procedural failures and biases that played into his conviction, and those are a black mark on the justice system. But today is a tragedy for Hae Min Lee's family. Adnan could very likely be a redeemable man who acted unfathomably during a crime of passion. But at present he is an unrepentant murderer. How very sad.
- danso 4y ago
  He is not "factually guilty". The cell tower ping evidence was basically all the "science" the state had against him, and it was the foundation for the constantly evolving and self-contradictory claims of the state's key witness, Jay Wilds. I don't know what Jay's deal is (seems very implausible that he was the murderer), but with the cell tower pings being all but useless for tracking location, then Jay's stories are just circumstantial claims. (again, it can't be emphasized enough how nonsensical and mutually contradictyory all of Jay's stories were over the years)
  - verteu 4y ago
    We can't just disregard Jay's testimony -- he led police to Hae's car. He discusses some inconsistencies here: https://theintercept.com/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/ https://theintercept.com/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-... Edit: A Reddit comment claims to identify more inconsistencies in the interview: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2xytci/comment/cp4vvdn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2xytci/comme...
    - danso 4y ago
      How Jay came to know where the car was parked is indeed confusing -- because it's hard to believe how the cops could know about it before him, which would presumably be a prerequisite for the cops conspiring with Jay to frame Adnan. But according to the state's motion to vacate[0], the car was parked near the home of one of the current alternate suspects, i.e. one of the suspects whose existence the cops and district attorney for unknown reasons, illegally withheld from the defense. So I can't explain why Jay would know where Hae's car was parked, but that mystery is ultimately superseded by the mystery of the police's handling of the alternate suspects. [0] https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-cr-adnan-syed-hearing-to-vacate-conviction-20220919-ynxvlcuqpbch5h6h2xl5xleh7q-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-cr-adnan-sy...
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diogenescynic 4y ago
To me this proves the party with the loudest voice and most money wins in the long run, or the squeaky wheel gets the grease. They just made a big enough stink for long enough that eventually someone caved in. I followed the podcast and definitely didn’t think the case that he was innocent was very strong. Reminds me of The Staircase, but with more social justice and identity politics to really muddy the conversation. The victim’s family wasn’t even given a heads up or time to prepare and find a lawyer to speak at the hearing.
anonymousiam 4y ago
The State’s Attorney (Mosby) doesn't want to admit to any Brady violations because that might open the door for Syed to seek compensation from the state for the time he served. I expect there will be more drama about this.
mchusma 4y ago
I never understand the lack of humility by prosecutors and often the victim's families. People's confidence in people's guilt is just so high, I don't understand it.
- xeromal 4y ago
  People always want blood and will latch on to the most likely choice. I'll say that we should expect the victim's family to act rational though. Tragedy makes emotions run high. We should hold ourselves accountable though. It's mind blowing that some people admit the case was funny and still call for his head. If there's a hole in the case, that's not enough for me.
- splistud 4y ago
dirtyid 4y ago
Married to Sarah Koenig when?

224 points by djoldman 4y ago

Just goes to show what can happen when you get featured in a viral hit podcast. That’s a great outcome for him but I shudder to think about what it tells us about our judicial system.

BadassFractal 4y ago
There was a similar case in Italy regarding its own version of the 90s satanic panic, which led to dozens of kids separated from their parents, parents committing suicide from shame and grief, an overall travesty of justice. Until Pablo Trincia made a podcast out of it and conducted an investigation the case was considered closed. The podcast entirely overturned it two decades later, reuniting many of the kids (now adults) with their legally estranged parents and sending a bunch of people to jail for intentional malpractice: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/polis/2021/08/04/investigative-podcasts-revelation-through-emotional-engagement/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/polis/2021/08/04/investigative-podca...
dayvid 4y ago
Serial is still one of the best true crime podcasts, because the case has so much more underneath the surface. One example is this podcast going over a cleared suspects apparently falsified alibi records (his mom who was a manager at his store chain and may have doctored his work record to prevent police going after him): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l6dApX2rIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l6dApX2rIY The main summary points are here, taken from this reddit page (which links to the primary sources) https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xea7pu/here_is_the_official_motion_to_vacate_adnan_syeds/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/xea7pu/here_...: 1. Two new suspects that were not properly ruled out. 2. One of the suspects had a) threatened to kill the victim and b) provided motives for the threat. 3. The victim's car was located directly behind one of those suspects relative's house. 4. One of the suspects attacked a woman in her vehicle, engaged in serial rape and assault, engaged in violence against women he knew, and was improperly ruled out. 5. Incoming call data was determined to be completely unreliable, as the network sends the signal through multiple towers and the billing records can show the last tower a phone connected to instead of the one it is currently on. 6. Kristina Vinson said she would not have missed a class at the same time she said Jay and Adnan were at her house, which showed that her recollection of what day Jay and Adnan had visited was wrong. 7. Because Jay had told numerous lies and versions of events to detectives, his testimony was only relied upon because the cell records and Vinson's testimony corroborated it. Without those, his testimony does not stand on its own. Thus, they could not have secured a conviction. 8. One of the lead detectives on the case engaged in egregious misconduct in another case, resulting in a wrongful conviction and 17 years of incarceration.
- bryan0 4y ago
  I listened this podcast when it first came out, so I’m probably misremembering this, but the key thing about the case to me was point 7: They had detailed witness testimony which fit the evidence AND the witness was able to show the police the location of the victim’s car which backed up his story. So it is hard to explain another version of events where the witness was not actually involved in the crime. I’m curious if any of this new evidence points to him as being involved.
jfengel 4y ago
Even "great outcome for him" seems like a stretch. That podcast was six years ago. He has been in jail for 22 years, more than half of his life. It's hard to imagine where he goes with his life from here; I wish him the best of luck. That's the "great" outcome of a one-in-a-million burst of publicity. Everybody else has it much, much worse.
socialismisok 4y ago
Our justice system is pretty busted, to be honest. And it's end to end busted - we trust police too much and with too much power, we don't have enough public defenders to protect everyone, we have long backlogs of cases, court fees and fines can be unending even if you are innocent (to say nothing about civil asset forfeiture), people are goaded into plea deals for crimes they don't commit, our jury selection process leaves a lot to be desired, our judges have done things like make deals to get a financial kickback for everyone they send to jail, our sentences are too long for minor crimes, our prisons are dangerously overcrowded making prison basically psychological and physical torture, we invest almost nothing on reducing recidivism, we fail to support inmates post incarceration and make it hard for them to find work, and we generally stigmatize anyone who has had a brush with the system. All of the above plus the racial and income inequality, nonsense war on drugs, etc. Yeah, I'd say we should all shudder quite a bit more about our judicial system.
- wowokay 4y ago
  To be honest I don’t understand how it’s thought that police have to much power. Especially since every case makes it’s way in front of a judge.
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    A case eventually making its way to a judge isn't really a counter-argument to how much power police have. Things like asset forfeiture, qualified immunity, etc. are all pretty strong arguments that police have too much power. Not to mention all of the cases where someone innocent is killed by police, where the victim doesn't get to go in front of a judge because they are dead.
  - neaden 4y ago
    Something like 95% of cases end in a plea deal, where a judges involvement is pretty minimal.
    - banannaise 4y ago
      To expand on this, plea deals are most common for poor defendants. The police convince a magistrate to set cash bail the defendant can't pay, and the defendant has the choice of taking a guilty plea for a "lesser charge" or sitting in jail for months until the case can be tried, at which point they are defended by an overworked, overwhelmed public defender. In many cases, the potential sentence for these cases is exceeded by the time they would actually spend in jail waiting for the trial; even being found guilty would result in time served. In these cases, the plea deal is literally a lesser sentence than being found not guilty.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
His conviction is vacated but they can put him on trial again.
- bigmattystyles 4y ago
  I doubt that will happen unless something else is revealed as the prosecutors are the ones that asked for the conviction to be vacated.
  - bruceb 4y ago
    There is a third possibility, he pleads guilty to time served. He was a minor when the murder happened. He pleads, gets 25 years, with time served + good behavior, he never actually goes back to prison.
    - bigmattystyles 4y ago
      Right, I was even wondering about an Alford plea.
      - bruceb 4y ago
        yes, this is what I meant. A no contest type of plea. He can say he is pleading guilty because he has spent 20+ years in prison and just wants to be/stay out, not that he is guilty. State can say he is guilty but he has spent 20+ years in prison so we are agreeing to this in order save taxpayer $ and move on. I remember listening to Serial and thinking Adnan Syed's advocate Rabia Chaudry seemed more convinced of his innocence than he was. Like he was maintaining his innocence for his family then she came along and started pushing harder to get him out and he was along for the ride. Victims don't always act as we might expect. So that might just be the way he is. Hopefully concrete proof will come out to say exactly who it was. I hope this for the family of Hae Min Lee. But is possible it never does.
        micromacrofoot 4y ago
dekhn 4y ago
Periodically I go back and check on Mumia Abu Jamal. Yep, still in jail [previously, I had said "on death row"]. He had far more coverage but I guess it happened before things went viral.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Mumia Abu Jamal is still in prison but he is not on death row.
- 8kingDreux8 4y ago
  He's no longer on death row for what it's worth. He was moved to gen pop in 2012. Still incarcerated, but not on death row. " In 2011, the prosecution agreed to a sentence of life imprisonment without parole. He entered the general prison population early the following year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal
- ars 4y ago
  I read the Wikipedia article on him, and I don't see why you think he's innocent? Other than an automatic assumption of racism there's nothing in there that would make me think it was a bad trial. This isn't a case of mistaken identity - he was shot by the person he shot. He had a gun that had been discharged 5 times. What am I missing? What's his explanation for having fired 5 times? All I saw was a vague claim that police shot him randomly as he crossed the street.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    I didn't say I think he was innocent- I have no idea. My only point was that there was a "free mumia" movement that also pointed out problems with the legal case, such that there was no airtight prosecution that would have led to the resulting death penalty.
rgovostes 4y ago
> I shudder to think about what it tells us about our judicial system. Coincidentally, this is the general topic of season 3 of Serial.
nostromo 4y ago
If you're worried primarily about wrongful convictions, don't forget that we only solve 50% of murders in the US. Wrongful convictions are tragic, but the 50% of murderers that are free is also tragic. https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/07/police-murder-clearance-rate/661500/ https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/07/poli...

robga 4y ago

Serial was blowout success, but flawed in many ways. For me, chief amongst these is not updating the podcast with new (and potentially exculpatory) information as it came to light over the years. What really progressed the case was the Undisclosed podcast [0]. Rabia Chaudry, a childhood friend of Adnan and an attorney, first took Adnan's story to Sarah Koenig, who documented it in the Serial podcast. But in Undisclosed, Rabia and her colleagues Colin Miller and Susan Simpson dissected the case with scalpel, found new evidence, and ultimately set the groundwork for today's result. Undisclosed stuck with it, and have covered other similar cases. Their twitter [1] says they've had 400m+ downloads, which is more than Serial, albeit over many series. If you liked Serial, or even if you didn't but do like True Crime, go check out Undisclosed. If long podcasts are not your thing, HBO's The Case Against Adnan Syed [2] is quite information rich across just 4 episodes. [0] https://undisclosed-podcast.com/episodes/season-1/ https://undisclosed-podcast.com/episodes/season-1/ [1] https://twitter.com/Undisclosedpod https://twitter.com/Undisclosedpod [2] https://www.hbo.com/the-case-against-adnan-syed https://www.hbo.com/the-case-against-adnan-syed

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I tried a bit of Undisclosed but it was... too much for me. In Serial, I was able to keep all the details of the case straight in my head, but Undisclosed went too far. That said, their objective wasn't to entertain and I respect that.
orblivion 4y ago
Wow, lucky kid that his case got this much attention. It can't be the only ambiguous case out there.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  There are many thousands more.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  He's a 41 year old man now.
4y ago

blobbers 4y ago

'Serial' was the podcast that launched all podcasts. It was the defining podcast. It isn't that it was hyper monetized or incredibly financially successful; simply it showed that the audience was there. It has over 340 million listens as of 2018. With this eviction of conviction, I suspect that number will be over a billion. It is fitting that it has come full circle and fulfilled the ultimate purpose of investigative journalism: to shine a light on a small part of the world that otherwise would be ignored... and maybe right a wrong.

jbpnoy6fifty 4y ago
If interested, there was an HBO documentary that covered his case after Serial. “The Case Against Adnan Syed 2019 ‧ Documentary ‧ 1 season” on HBO max
geuis 4y ago
> 'Serial' was the podcast that launched all podcasts Sorry, but this statement is objectively wrong. Podcasts have existed for close to 20 years in the way we understand them today. Serial may have helped to popularize podcasts, but in no way was original.
- blamazon 4y ago
  I think that commenter may have not been that literal and meant something more along the lines of "made podcasts more mainstream in an exponential manner." I know plenty of people in my life who weren't podcast people at that time but were constantly talking about it or walking around saying "mail... keemp?" as a joke. (A reference to Serial)
- LeonB 4y ago
  They’re using hyperbole as a device. It’s not meant to be “literally” true.
- blobbers 4y ago
  Indeed you’re very right! Not the original, but Serial contained all the elements that made a podcast mainstream and proved it out as a real business. Prior to it they were indie.

indigodaddy 4y ago

When I finished the podcast I was not at all convinced of his innocence. For me was 50/50 or even 60/40 against innocence. Just my takeaway/opinion of course.. EDIT However, reading both of the AP News articles on this now, it does serve to sway me more toward his innocence. Crazy that the prosecutors withheld this at that time.. Par for the course unfortunately I guess. Seems as though the SA office is trying to do the right thing now, and appears they will continue investigating, and hopefully if appropriate, may deem that the next best step is to drop his case fully and prosecute the other now-uncovered suspects.

yieldcrv 4y ago
I think the wrong bar is being evaluated, its important to get the correct person off the streets. I was not satisfied - and am still not satisfied - that any of this is occurring. So that exempts Adnan Syed as well and means he should be released.
advantager 4y ago
I remember feeling similarly. I also don't remember feeling as though he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
- hinkley 4y ago
  > guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. How the American Legal System is supposed to work, not as a way to punish people who 'look guilty'.
oconnor663 4y ago
> For me was 50/50 or even 60/40 against innocence. Totally, but the standard for conviction is "beyond a reasonable doubt". By that standard, a 40% chance of innocence means "not guilty". I don't know whether the law has ever translated "reasonable doubt" into a specific percentage, but I have to imagine it's less than 10%?
- indigodaddy 4y ago
  I don’t disagree. I guess it’s kind of like an additional psychological bias that one plays into when he’s already been convicted and in prison.

doitLP 4y ago

For a hilarious lampooning of true crime podcasts, check out The Onion’s podcast “A Very Fatal Murder”. Truly a great piece of satire: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-very-fatal-murder/id1333714430 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-very-fatal-murder/id...

yamtaddle 4y ago
Not a podcast, but there's also the Netflix mockumentary series "American Vandal".
- scoofy 4y ago
  American Vandal may be my favorite piece of satire ever made. It mocks true crime shows... by being an extremely good true crime show. It demonstrates well that it's not the content, but the presentation that makes it so compelling.
  - caf 4y ago
    Well, not actually "true".
wayne 4y ago
'Only Murders in the Building' starring Martin Short, Steve Martin, and Selena Gomez playing podcasters in a Hulu show is also amazing.
- caf 4y ago
  Only Murders in the Building is like American Vandal meets Agatha Christie.

legitster 4y ago

I'll be honest and say I found the podcast rather frustrating. Koenig was clearly an outsider to the legal system, and had the benefit of telling a different, big long narrative. But at the end of it, I don't know if it was any more or less truthful than the first one. It was still built on old memories, circumstantial evidence, and bias (she even admitted she only started the investigation because she found Adnan so charming). And the interview with Jay after the podcast especially scrambled my thoughts - I found him really compelling too! And there was a lot of stuff the podcast left out without telling you! Over 12 episodes! So in the end, I honestly don't know about Adnan! I don't know if the case against him was actually weak or if there was just enough of an army of hole pokers who could have poked through anything.

shishy 4y ago
> One of the suspects had threatened Lee, saying “he would make her (Ms. Lee) disappear. He would kill her,” according to the filing. > “Given the stunning lack of reliable evidence implicating Mr. Syed, coupled with increasing evidence pointing to other suspects, this unjust conviction cannot stand,” said Assistant Public Defender Erica Suter, Mr. Syed’s attorney and, Director of the Innocence Project Clinic. “Mr. Syed is grateful that this information has finally seen the light of day and looks forward to his day in court.” > The suspects were known persons at the time of the original investigation and were not properly ruled out nor disclosed to the defense, prosecutors said. source: https://apnews.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-baltimore-prosecutors-c6ee72fa85c79c1bdf7b5486ea762010 https://apnews.com/article/adnan-syed-conviction-baltimore-p... I think this is enough to justify letting him get out and they can decide if they want to do another trial. That's a pretty important miss on the prosecutors originally and the other suspects should have been ruled out before focusing all on him. EDIT: Also, on a personal level and in a normative sense, it's been 20 years and he should be allowed to re-enter society and of all the crazy people we let back, he's probably one of the safer choices for rehabilitation.
- legitster 4y ago
  I would love to hear from an actual neutral legal party if that's actually the case. Adnan had a motive and a strong testimony against him from an accomplice who's story had checked out. Is it actually a big miss to not rule out every possible suspect? But on your broader point, I largely agree that anyone freed from unnecessarily long and potentially unjust prison sentences is a good thing.

indigodaddy 4y ago

Wondering if they have those 2 other now uncovered suspects in custody? If not, would they not now skidaddle at the soonest??

syntaxing 4y ago

I forgot the exact numbers we used for this exercise but we did a standard hypothesis test on wrongful convictions in my stat 101 class and even mathematically, only 95% convictions are “rightful”. So essentially there is 5% innocent people. The 5% mainly consist of the poor and/or non-white.

warner25 4y ago

I'm wondering if anyone here has real insight into the economics of his situation at this point. On one hand it seems like his life has been ruined by the state after spending 20+ years in prison, costing his family everything in legal fees, and forever being associated with this murder. I feel like anyone wrongfully convicted (or even just accused) should have some serious recourse but I suspect that there isn't any. On the other hand, can he realistically make out better than most of us (i.e. turning this into a mid-7 or 8-figure fortune and living happily ever after) by getting book / movie / TV / speaking deals now that he's out?

jmkd 4y ago
I don't have real insight but I have real hope that your sentiment comes true at least in part, and that Adnan is both exonerated and compensated appropriately. Listening to Serial from episode 1 you cannot ignore the fact that it wouldn't be compelling (or wouldn't have been researched or serialised) if the suspect's guilt was clear and unequivocal.
arbitrage 4y ago
No. Going to prison in the United States ruins your life.
xenadu02 4y ago
Restitution for a wrongful conviction varies dramatically on a state-by-state basis. In some states you need a ruling of actual innocence by a court, not just vacation of conviction, to get compensation. That high bar can make it impractical to get compensation. Other states have special boards or commissions that review vacated convictions. Prosecutors declining to re-file charges or even recommending vacation of the conviction is usually a really good sign though - commissions/boards and courts still give them a lot of deference. The amount varies but federally it is $50k for each year incarcerated. CA is around 50k. WA pays 200k. NV pays 50k/yr for up to 10, 75k/yr for 10+. Some states and the feds have adders if you were on death row: +100k/yr federal, CO +50k/yr on death row. Others have adders for every year on parole or having to register as a sex offender (KS/WA +25k). And some states offer tuition assistance (or full ride), healthcare, counseling services, and so forth. As for this case... Maryland used to require a pardon from the Governor or a "writ of actual innocence" so in practice it was impossible to get compensation. From 1984-2020 the Board of Public Works only compensated 5 people and from 2004-2019 they didn't accept a single claim. But they changed the process in 2021 to make it easier... now an Administrative Law Judge considers the circumstances and the compensation pays the daily median wage for each day in prison (around 41k/yr). Maryland also now gives healthcare coverage, job training, housing assistance, and so on.

adultSwim 4y ago

Does anyone know if the new evidence exonorates him or if it simply proved that the case and trial were mishandled?

achr2 4y ago
Only procedural, no exoneration at all.
stevenwoo 4y ago
Brady violation by original prosecution team (they did not let the defense know of other evidence). The current prosecution did the right thing.
paxys 4y ago
He is not exonerated. The state has 30 days to decide whether they want to try him again, and I believe are waiting on some DNA test results to make that determination.
locusofself 4y ago
I'm so curious as to what evidence there is or isn't. I hope he is re-tried unless there is some bombshell evidence, as I believe he is guilty from what I know as a laymen consumer of the media content..

achr2 4y ago

I believe Adnan is factually guilty. Undoubtedly there were significant procedural failures and biases that played into his conviction, and those are a black mark on the justice system. But today is a tragedy for Hae Min Lee's family. Adnan could very likely be a redeemable man who acted unfathomably during a crime of passion. But at present he is an unrepentant murderer. How very sad.

danso 4y ago
He is not "factually guilty". The cell tower ping evidence was basically all the "science" the state had against him, and it was the foundation for the constantly evolving and self-contradictory claims of the state's key witness, Jay Wilds. I don't know what Jay's deal is (seems very implausible that he was the murderer), but with the cell tower pings being all but useless for tracking location, then Jay's stories are just circumstantial claims. (again, it can't be emphasized enough how nonsensical and mutually contradictyory all of Jay's stories were over the years)
- verteu 4y ago
  We can't just disregard Jay's testimony -- he led police to Hae's car. He discusses some inconsistencies here: https://theintercept.com/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-wilds-star-witness-adnan-syed-serial-case-pt-1/ https://theintercept.com/2014/12/29/exclusive-interview-jay-... Edit: A Reddit comment claims to identify more inconsistencies in the interview: https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2xytci/comment/cp4vvdn/ https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2xytci/comme...
  - danso 4y ago
    How Jay came to know where the car was parked is indeed confusing -- because it's hard to believe how the cops could know about it before him, which would presumably be a prerequisite for the cops conspiring with Jay to frame Adnan. But according to the state's motion to vacate[0], the car was parked near the home of one of the current alternate suspects, i.e. one of the suspects whose existence the cops and district attorney for unknown reasons, illegally withheld from the defense. So I can't explain why Jay would know where Hae's car was parked, but that mystery is ultimately superseded by the mystery of the police's handling of the alternate suspects. [0] https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-cr-adnan-syed-hearing-to-vacate-conviction-20220919-ynxvlcuqpbch5h6h2xl5xleh7q-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-ci-cr-adnan-sy...

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diogenescynic 4y ago

To me this proves the party with the loudest voice and most money wins in the long run, or the squeaky wheel gets the grease. They just made a big enough stink for long enough that eventually someone caved in. I followed the podcast and definitely didn’t think the case that he was innocent was very strong. Reminds me of The Staircase, but with more social justice and identity politics to really muddy the conversation. The victim’s family wasn’t even given a heads up or time to prepare and find a lawyer to speak at the hearing.

anonymousiam 4y ago

The State’s Attorney (Mosby) doesn't want to admit to any Brady violations because that might open the door for Syed to seek compensation from the state for the time he served. I expect there will be more drama about this.

mchusma 4y ago

I never understand the lack of humility by prosecutors and often the victim's families. People's confidence in people's guilt is just so high, I don't understand it.

xeromal 4y ago
People always want blood and will latch on to the most likely choice. I'll say that we should expect the victim's family to act rational though. Tragedy makes emotions run high. We should hold ourselves accountable though. It's mind blowing that some people admit the case was funny and still call for his head. If there's a hole in the case, that's not enough for me.
splistud 4y ago

dirtyid 4y ago

Married to Sarah Koenig when?