6 ms·

I understand the point. But why is that?

by Garvi 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> why is that? The web3/crypto community seems to select for individuals with an almost proud ignorance of the law and state power. The same personality that can make a 21st-century gold bug pitch (e.g. a world on crypto is one without wars, Bitcoin is impossible to ban, or Luna is magically stable et cetera) is one that reacts to an arrest warrant by no showing and tweeting.
- notch656a 4y ago
  >The web3/crypto community seems to select for individuals with an almost proud ignorance of the law and state power. And the problem with that is what? State power and law failed us.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > the problem with that is what? Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, understanding how it works is usually a good start. Specifically: pompous ignorance leads to gross negligence and criminality so stupidly brazen a B-list editor would send it back for being unbelievable. The sort that is rampant in crypto/web3.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, Yes the fix is clear to me. Remove KYC+AML from the banking/monetary system. The expansion of crypto is in part a response to a pompous ignorance of government officials, attempting to impose a search of your papers merely for banking and the government implementing policies so stupid even a B-list editor wouldn't believe it. The government failed so other actors came in, then everyone made a sad face that when the government failed alternatives were found.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Remove KYC+AML from the banking/monetary system Luna's downfall and Do Kwon's pending red notice have nothing to do with KYC or AML.
        notch656a 4y ago
        >Luna's downfall and Do Kwon's pending red notice have nothing to do with KYC or AML. I disagree here. The 'killer app' feature of crypto is that it's basically imperfect banking without KYC/AML. Without crypto's popularity it's doubtful Do Kwon and Luna would have gotten such a foothold.
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > [crypto is] basically imperfect banking without KYC/AML Pretty solid case for why these folks should go to jail. Or at the very least, be disgorged of their gains and banned from finance.
      - freen 4y ago
        Chesterton’s fence fail.
        notch656a 4y ago
        >Chesterton’s fence fail. Excellent point. The legislature ripped quite a bit of privacy and freedom from the banking system post 9/11 on an almost blind rampage, without doing much stopping and asking why things were they were. I admit it was the ultimate Chesterton's fence fail on the government's part and likely a big reason why a new fence seems to have been built with crypto. Honestly even bitcoin the white paper seems to have had more thought poured into it than the Patriot Act, which kicked off much of the KYC reforms in the US. In reality I think many of the adopters of cryptocurrency realized exactly the dystopia that the banking system was going down and very deliberately tried to take some of the failures of government into account.
        4y ago
  - rurp 4y ago
    This reminds me of an old skit, I think from Monty Python. Where a bunch of people in ancient rome are pissed off. "What has Rome ever done for us?!". "Expect for roads" "And sewers" "And protection from invaders" "And enforced contracts" And so on...
    - notch656a 4y ago
      - vkou 4y ago
        Surely you realize that if the power vacuum isn't filled by a democratic or mostly democratic or even somewhat democratic government, it will be happily met by a despot or a warlord? The steady state of parts of the globe that don't have governments is 'government, but by cartels or warlords or revolutionary people's liberation armies'. Which have all the powers of governments, without any of the self-constraints, legal processes, protected abilities for petition or redress, or mechanisms for peaceful transfer of power.
        notch656a 4y ago
        No I don't realize that.
      - rurp 4y ago
        Large scale infrastructure? Yeah that's pretty much always built by governments. This has held true for millenia, over hundreds of different societies. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank God crypto is here to knock some common sense into the world.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Women in a high elected office? Up until the 1920s men were pretty much always governors in the United States. That held true for hundreds of years, over hundreds of different elections. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank god women are here to knock some common sense into the world. Transport on land? Yeah that's pretty much always done by horse. This has held true for millenia, over hundreds of different societies. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank God mechanized vehicles are here to knock some sense into the world. >Yeah that's pretty much always built by governments. Yes definitely, that's why I can never find privately refined and delivered gasoline, have goods shipped internationally except through a nationalized shipping company, and can't find a private company to deliver my last-mile internet or cell-phone service.
- lexapro 4y ago
  You know, it's kinda funny that you mention gold bugs. Because gold shares a lot of properties with Bitcoin, and therefore should be considered a sham by most of HN. Yet somehow it sits currently at $1,670/oz and is owned by all major central banks in the world.
  - tmpz22 4y ago
    Thousands of years of cultural significance enables gold to be assigned more value then it otherwise would have.
    - lexapro 4y ago
      But this could also happen to Bitcoin and crypto bros would certainly argue it has already started to happen.
    - timmytokyo 4y ago
      Exactly. There are plenty of other precious metals that could have been used for the same purposes as gold (e.g., platinum, palladium, iridium). But they aren't. For various historical reasons.
      - sulcate 4y ago
        But elements are not interchangable and have important differences in properties, difficulties in refining, and workability. Gold is tremendously useful for many applications and I believe all that you mentioned are brittle in comparison. I believe it's also rarer than a few on that list. Mainly, I've heard a few people in my life contend that we only arbitrarily decided that gold has a use, or that it's mostly hype. I don't think that's the full case. It's workable, useful, biocompatible, profitability extractable, and obviously stunningly pretty. Not so much just culturally significant just on a whim or something, it's useful.
  - rurp 4y ago
    Among other reasons, it's non-trivial to walk off with $10M worth of solid gold owned by someone on another continent.
- Garvi 4y ago
  So it's a counter-culture thing like hippies and punks of the past? I thought those all died with moderated social media. Is it at all about "sticking it to the man" or is it purely profit motivated (by the followers of those individuals)? It's most likely a mix of the two, but to what degree.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - naet 4y ago
    A lot of the crypto culture is IMO not counter-culture, but almost "hyper-culture". Crypto lives on hype. Most rhetoric used by the likes of Do Kwon is focused around building hype for their particular brand of crypto, hoping to entice other people to invest in it. They may use some terminology that sounds similar to counter culture at face value (eg "stick it to the big banks!") but they aren't doing this in the counter culture mode of rejection, they are simply using it as a sales pitch towards moving more crypto.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

I understand the point. But why is that?

by Garvi 4y ago

I understand the point. But why is that?

> why is that? The web3/crypto community seems to select for individuals with an almost proud ignorance of the law and state power. The same personality that can make a 21st-century gold bug pitch (e.g. a world on crypto is one without wars, Bitcoin is impossible to ban, or Luna is magically stable et cetera) is one that reacts to an arrest warrant by no showing and tweeting.

notch656a 4y ago
>The web3/crypto community seems to select for individuals with an almost proud ignorance of the law and state power. And the problem with that is what? State power and law failed us.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > the problem with that is what? Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, understanding how it works is usually a good start. Specifically: pompous ignorance leads to gross negligence and criminality so stupidly brazen a B-list editor would send it back for being unbelievable. The sort that is rampant in crypto/web3.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >Generally: if you’re trying to fix something, Yes the fix is clear to me. Remove KYC+AML from the banking/monetary system. The expansion of crypto is in part a response to a pompous ignorance of government officials, attempting to impose a search of your papers merely for banking and the government implementing policies so stupid even a B-list editor wouldn't believe it. The government failed so other actors came in, then everyone made a sad face that when the government failed alternatives were found.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Remove KYC+AML from the banking/monetary system Luna's downfall and Do Kwon's pending red notice have nothing to do with KYC or AML.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Luna's downfall and Do Kwon's pending red notice have nothing to do with KYC or AML. I disagree here. The 'killer app' feature of crypto is that it's basically imperfect banking without KYC/AML. Without crypto's popularity it's doubtful Do Kwon and Luna would have gotten such a foothold.
        JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > [crypto is] basically imperfect banking without KYC/AML Pretty solid case for why these folks should go to jail. Or at the very least, be disgorged of their gains and banned from finance.
    - freen 4y ago
      Chesterton’s fence fail.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Chesterton’s fence fail. Excellent point. The legislature ripped quite a bit of privacy and freedom from the banking system post 9/11 on an almost blind rampage, without doing much stopping and asking why things were they were. I admit it was the ultimate Chesterton's fence fail on the government's part and likely a big reason why a new fence seems to have been built with crypto. Honestly even bitcoin the white paper seems to have had more thought poured into it than the Patriot Act, which kicked off much of the KYC reforms in the US. In reality I think many of the adopters of cryptocurrency realized exactly the dystopia that the banking system was going down and very deliberately tried to take some of the failures of government into account.
        4y ago
- rurp 4y ago
  This reminds me of an old skit, I think from Monty Python. Where a bunch of people in ancient rome are pissed off. "What has Rome ever done for us?!". "Expect for roads" "And sewers" "And protection from invaders" "And enforced contracts" And so on...
  - notch656a 4y ago
    - vkou 4y ago
      Surely you realize that if the power vacuum isn't filled by a democratic or mostly democratic or even somewhat democratic government, it will be happily met by a despot or a warlord? The steady state of parts of the globe that don't have governments is 'government, but by cartels or warlords or revolutionary people's liberation armies'. Which have all the powers of governments, without any of the self-constraints, legal processes, protected abilities for petition or redress, or mechanisms for peaceful transfer of power.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        No I don't realize that.
    - rurp 4y ago
      Large scale infrastructure? Yeah that's pretty much always built by governments. This has held true for millenia, over hundreds of different societies. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank God crypto is here to knock some common sense into the world.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Women in a high elected office? Up until the 1920s men were pretty much always governors in the United States. That held true for hundreds of years, over hundreds of different elections. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank god women are here to knock some common sense into the world. Transport on land? Yeah that's pretty much always done by horse. This has held true for millenia, over hundreds of different societies. But yeah, just a fluke I'm sure. Thank God mechanized vehicles are here to knock some sense into the world. >Yeah that's pretty much always built by governments. Yes definitely, that's why I can never find privately refined and delivered gasoline, have goods shipped internationally except through a nationalized shipping company, and can't find a private company to deliver my last-mile internet or cell-phone service.
lexapro 4y ago
You know, it's kinda funny that you mention gold bugs. Because gold shares a lot of properties with Bitcoin, and therefore should be considered a sham by most of HN. Yet somehow it sits currently at $1,670/oz and is owned by all major central banks in the world.
- tmpz22 4y ago
  Thousands of years of cultural significance enables gold to be assigned more value then it otherwise would have.
  - lexapro 4y ago
    But this could also happen to Bitcoin and crypto bros would certainly argue it has already started to happen.
  - timmytokyo 4y ago
    Exactly. There are plenty of other precious metals that could have been used for the same purposes as gold (e.g., platinum, palladium, iridium). But they aren't. For various historical reasons.
    - sulcate 4y ago
      But elements are not interchangable and have important differences in properties, difficulties in refining, and workability. Gold is tremendously useful for many applications and I believe all that you mentioned are brittle in comparison. I believe it's also rarer than a few on that list. Mainly, I've heard a few people in my life contend that we only arbitrarily decided that gold has a use, or that it's mostly hype. I don't think that's the full case. It's workable, useful, biocompatible, profitability extractable, and obviously stunningly pretty. Not so much just culturally significant just on a whim or something, it's useful.
- rurp 4y ago
  Among other reasons, it's non-trivial to walk off with $10M worth of solid gold owned by someone on another continent.
Garvi 4y ago
So it's a counter-culture thing like hippies and punks of the past? I thought those all died with moderated social media. Is it at all about "sticking it to the man" or is it purely profit motivated (by the followers of those individuals)? It's most likely a mix of the two, but to what degree.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- naet 4y ago
  A lot of the crypto culture is IMO not counter-culture, but almost "hyper-culture". Crypto lives on hype. Most rhetoric used by the likes of Do Kwon is focused around building hype for their particular brand of crypto, hoping to entice other people to invest in it. They may use some terminology that sounds similar to counter culture at face value (eg "stick it to the big banks!") but they aren't doing this in the counter culture mode of rejection, they are simply using it as a sales pitch towards moving more crypto.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]