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>The problem is not "useless degrees" (they're all useful, regardless of what you may think of them), the problem is insane cost of education. STEM degrees are

>The problem is not "useless degrees" (they're all useful, regardless of what you may think of them), the problem is insane cost of education. STEM degrees are essential for modern society, humanities degrees are pure luxury that could be replaced by just reading the course syllabus for free and discussing online or with local groups As for the cost of education, that could be fixed overnight by allowing loans to be discharged. Colleges would instantly stop providing most humanities courses because they know the students won't be able to repay them because they provide no real world value

woodruffw 4y ago
This is a reprehensible way to look at the world, one that is self-consuming: should we close scientific research labs because they're cost centers? Should we forbid exploratory work because it lacks a clear road to shareholder value? And that's before we consider the intangible nature of "real world value." Very few of us want to live in a world where value is a pure function of expected production.
- infamouscow 4y ago
  The death of universities cannot happen soon enough. If only to force them to genuinely re-evaluate all of their stupid decisions over the last 50 years so that future generations can avoid the same fate.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    What "stupid decisions" are you identifying with the last 50 years? I can't think of a unifying theme in that timespan. Whether or not the thing we call "universities" continues to exist into the indefinite future is not of particular concern to me. The primary thing I'm concerning myself with in this conversation is the recurrent and myopic belief among the HN commentariat that everything, especially anything that isn't STEM, needs to fit into the bottom line of some profit structure to be worth any of society's time and effort.
    - i_am_toaster 4y ago
      A college degree is a financial decision that has a benefit which should outweigh its cost. If it does not outweigh its cost (both in time and money spent), then you should be doing something else. All college degrees are not equal, whether or not they cost the same. Their cost being the same is the only reason you think these degrees have some level of equality; it seems hypocritical to judge others for their analysis of things based on dollar value when you ascribe value based on price.
    - ren_engineer 4y ago
      >profit structure we are talking way more fundamental things here. If all of society suddenly had a ton of humanity major knowledge but no farming knowledge, society dies. The government is only able to subsidize a luxury like humanities majors because all the other basic needs are taken care of by the miracles of technology created by engineers and physicists. Otherwise, everybody would still be doing subsistence farming to survive and wouldn't have time for the humanities anyway. You can't fake productivity and economic output, it all comes down to technology
    - moduspol 4y ago
      > What "stupid decisions" are you identifying with the last 50 years? I can't think of a unifying theme in that timespan. How about a severe and widening disconnect between the people paying for the loans, the people guaranteeing the loans, and the measurable value received by the recipient?
- carom 4y ago
  These analogies don't make sense. Scientific research and exploratory work have insane ROI, just look at DARPA. I can not say the same for a humanities degree. Going into debt for a humanities degree is akin to consumer credit. The individual is free to take on that debt, but it is by no means an investment. I do not think people should weight the intangible value of the degree that they are going 50k in debt for. Doing so will lead to the current student debt crisis.
  - paganel 4y ago
    > These analogies don't make sense. Scientific research and exploratory work have insane ROI, Humanities teach you that life isn't a ROI thing.
    - carom 4y ago
      Then there is no student debt crisis. Good work on solving that one. We can continue paying schools with non forgivable loans and empowering them to charge a flat tuition no matter what the expected earnings of a degree are. The world is perfect. Those students and society are getting their monies worth in intangible benefits.
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      funny how I managed to learn that without a humanities degree
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      "Humanities teach you that life isn't a ROI thing." One could possibly acquire that particular knowledge for free. Also, life may not be a ROI thing, but being heavily indebted is still misery. Do the teachers whose salaries depend on their students being heavily indebted teach that, or do they prefer not to talk about this issue? Or the administrators? I would call it a material (and painful) lesson on conflicts of interest.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      Ok, now introduce negative interest rates on cash to allow that to happen.
- ren_engineer 4y ago
  >should we close scientific research labs because they're cost centers? Should we forbid exploratory work because it lacks a clear road to shareholder value? closing implies the government does it by force, my point is that things that provide value- whether economic or more abstract, will be fine without government subsidizing it. Research labs have proven ROI and benefits for society, humanity majors no so much. If humanities majors had so much value companies would be paying for them or other nations governments would be recruiting these debt ridden students and poaching them to benefit their own country Like I said, people can learn anything humanities related by reading free resources online. No need to rack up massive amounts of debt to do that The fact you have to make a value judgement of it being "reprehensible" and act like without humanities majors we'll be "a world where value is a pure function of expected production" is a sign of a weak argument. It's a very common argument style I see of people stuck in the past with rose-tinted views of what college is about
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    > If humanities majors had so much value companies would be paying for them or other nations governments would be recruiting these debt ridden students and poaching them to benefit their own country They do, all the time: as journalists, economists, political dissidents and, most saliently in this context, programmers. It turns out that obtaining a well-rounded education means that those who can program (or perform other technical roles) do so better than their purely technical counterparts! You can learn anything online, with enough effort, discipline, and engagement from others. Lots of people try to learn programming (not Computer Science, just the technical aspect of programming) online each year, and I'd wager that the overwhelming majority fair. It turns out that the classroom environment is conducive to learning in ways that self-directed online learning is not! Yes, it is a value judgment. It is one I stand by: it is reprehensible to eliminate sources of value in our society just because we don't have an instrument capable of measuring them. One wonders how many fewer adolescents and young adults would be inspired to study aerospace should Tom Wolfe have been told to study it instead of writing The Right Stuff; one also wonders whether we'd even be having this conversation over the Internet were it not for a bunch of "worthless" philosophizing in Viennese cafes over the nature of mathematical structure.
- imtringued 4y ago
  If those labs finance themselves via debt rather than research grants then yes.
okaram 4y ago
Well, STEM degrees could also be replaced by just reading the course syllabus... It's just a lot harder, just like with humanities degrees.

woodruffw 4y ago

This is a reprehensible way to look at the world, one that is self-consuming: should we close scientific research labs because they're cost centers? Should we forbid exploratory work because it lacks a clear road to shareholder value? And that's before we consider the intangible nature of "real world value." Very few of us want to live in a world where value is a pure function of expected production.

infamouscow 4y ago
The death of universities cannot happen soon enough. If only to force them to genuinely re-evaluate all of their stupid decisions over the last 50 years so that future generations can avoid the same fate.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  What "stupid decisions" are you identifying with the last 50 years? I can't think of a unifying theme in that timespan. Whether or not the thing we call "universities" continues to exist into the indefinite future is not of particular concern to me. The primary thing I'm concerning myself with in this conversation is the recurrent and myopic belief among the HN commentariat that everything, especially anything that isn't STEM, needs to fit into the bottom line of some profit structure to be worth any of society's time and effort.
  - i_am_toaster 4y ago
    A college degree is a financial decision that has a benefit which should outweigh its cost. If it does not outweigh its cost (both in time and money spent), then you should be doing something else. All college degrees are not equal, whether or not they cost the same. Their cost being the same is the only reason you think these degrees have some level of equality; it seems hypocritical to judge others for their analysis of things based on dollar value when you ascribe value based on price.
  - ren_engineer 4y ago
    >profit structure we are talking way more fundamental things here. If all of society suddenly had a ton of humanity major knowledge but no farming knowledge, society dies. The government is only able to subsidize a luxury like humanities majors because all the other basic needs are taken care of by the miracles of technology created by engineers and physicists. Otherwise, everybody would still be doing subsistence farming to survive and wouldn't have time for the humanities anyway. You can't fake productivity and economic output, it all comes down to technology
  - moduspol 4y ago
    > What "stupid decisions" are you identifying with the last 50 years? I can't think of a unifying theme in that timespan. How about a severe and widening disconnect between the people paying for the loans, the people guaranteeing the loans, and the measurable value received by the recipient?
carom 4y ago
These analogies don't make sense. Scientific research and exploratory work have insane ROI, just look at DARPA. I can not say the same for a humanities degree. Going into debt for a humanities degree is akin to consumer credit. The individual is free to take on that debt, but it is by no means an investment. I do not think people should weight the intangible value of the degree that they are going 50k in debt for. Doing so will lead to the current student debt crisis.
- paganel 4y ago
  > These analogies don't make sense. Scientific research and exploratory work have insane ROI, Humanities teach you that life isn't a ROI thing.
  - carom 4y ago
    Then there is no student debt crisis. Good work on solving that one. We can continue paying schools with non forgivable loans and empowering them to charge a flat tuition no matter what the expected earnings of a degree are. The world is perfect. Those students and society are getting their monies worth in intangible benefits.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    funny how I managed to learn that without a humanities degree
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    "Humanities teach you that life isn't a ROI thing." One could possibly acquire that particular knowledge for free. Also, life may not be a ROI thing, but being heavily indebted is still misery. Do the teachers whose salaries depend on their students being heavily indebted teach that, or do they prefer not to talk about this issue? Or the administrators? I would call it a material (and painful) lesson on conflicts of interest.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    Ok, now introduce negative interest rates on cash to allow that to happen.
ren_engineer 4y ago
>should we close scientific research labs because they're cost centers? Should we forbid exploratory work because it lacks a clear road to shareholder value? closing implies the government does it by force, my point is that things that provide value- whether economic or more abstract, will be fine without government subsidizing it. Research labs have proven ROI and benefits for society, humanity majors no so much. If humanities majors had so much value companies would be paying for them or other nations governments would be recruiting these debt ridden students and poaching them to benefit their own country Like I said, people can learn anything humanities related by reading free resources online. No need to rack up massive amounts of debt to do that The fact you have to make a value judgement of it being "reprehensible" and act like without humanities majors we'll be "a world where value is a pure function of expected production" is a sign of a weak argument. It's a very common argument style I see of people stuck in the past with rose-tinted views of what college is about
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > If humanities majors had so much value companies would be paying for them or other nations governments would be recruiting these debt ridden students and poaching them to benefit their own country They do, all the time: as journalists, economists, political dissidents and, most saliently in this context, programmers. It turns out that obtaining a well-rounded education means that those who can program (or perform other technical roles) do so better than their purely technical counterparts! You can learn anything online, with enough effort, discipline, and engagement from others. Lots of people try to learn programming (not Computer Science, just the technical aspect of programming) online each year, and I'd wager that the overwhelming majority fair. It turns out that the classroom environment is conducive to learning in ways that self-directed online learning is not! Yes, it is a value judgment. It is one I stand by: it is reprehensible to eliminate sources of value in our society just because we don't have an instrument capable of measuring them. One wonders how many fewer adolescents and young adults would be inspired to study aerospace should Tom Wolfe have been told to study it instead of writing The Right Stuff; one also wonders whether we'd even be having this conversation over the Internet were it not for a bunch of "worthless" philosophizing in Viennese cafes over the nature of mathematical structure.
imtringued 4y ago
If those labs finance themselves via debt rather than research grants then yes.

okaram 4y ago

Well, STEM degrees could also be replaced by just reading the course syllabus... It's just a lot harder, just like with humanities degrees.