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main issue with education is that the cost of education is not commiserate with the income potential. for those looking just to learn for learnings sake, there'

main issue with education is that the cost of education is not commiserate with the income potential. for those looking just to learn for learnings sake, there's community college. for the majority who do it for income reasons, ideally it would be designed to not take you more than say, 8 years to pay off, given the median income for the major and area. this alone would resolve most of the issues. there is value in someone majoring in English. issue is the median English major, given their inclinations are unlikely to make as much as the median, say, Economics major, in a given area. these disparities would ideally and should be reflected in the cost. the result would be: 1. when you apply to college you should apply to a major and that should be part of your application 2. different majors should cost different amounts of money 3. acceptance rates should differ based on major 4. classes of different types should cost different amounts of money beyond some gratuity (say, 8 classes).

tsujamin 4y ago
(this sounds like undergraduate university programs in australia…)
analog31 4y ago
There are already separate acceptance requirements for STEM majors based on things like the math prerequisites and minimum GPA requirements. At the university near my house, you need at least a "B" average on your freshman transcript to be accepted into the College of Engineering. Many of the engineering and medical courses have extra fees on top of tuition. Also, the parents of these kids have already paid more by living in school districts with high property valuations, that can provide the necessary preparatory coursework. A not insignificant number of college students have no hope of majoring in STEM even if all of the economics are screaming at them, which they are.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  The fees you’re describing are not really proportional with the median pay difference, which is more or less my point. The acceptance difference isn’t really that great, either. Not sure what property valuations have to do with anything. For example at all of the ivy leagues there’s no significant difference in tuition for major nor is there really a substantial difference in acceptance rate. Some, like Columbia have different schools, but even within them majors, and prospects, differ.
  - analog31 4y ago
    Higher property taxes pay for kids to study in schools where they have a chance of preparing for entry into a competitive STEM program. I taught at a university where students were given a math placement exam before being assigned their freshman courses. Getting into Calculus and passing it with a good grade was a sorting hat for what major you could study. Fees proportional to pay sounds like an income tax.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Again what is the connection between higher property taxes and this competitiveness you’re referring to? California for example has proposition 13 which fixes the tax. Are kids in California less prepared? New Hampshire has higher property tax rates than Massachusetts- are they doing better? Etc. Even if it were true, the most expensive schools are private and so property taxes still would have little relevance to the discussion at hand.
6stringmerc 4y ago
English majors have much better preparation for Law School in the US (as do Philosophy majors) and high acceptance and success rates than Economics or Business or STEM graduates - Lawyers make more money in most fields than any of the professions you mentioned. So why would somebody pursue a limiting career in servant worker degrees of any type? Computer Science isn’t entrepreneur lessons - it’s vocational school with a higher price tag and we all know it. Pretending a BS in CS is harder to get than a BA in Philosophy is laughably sus.
- raesene9 4y ago
  I'm not sure the "truism" that law is well paid in most plaes is true any more. In the UK for example criminal barristers have been striking due to low pay (sometimes effectively under minimum wage) Then in the US we have evidence of declining salaries https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/median-us-lawyer-income-dropped-over-past-two-decades-economists-find-2022-08-23/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/median-us-lawyer... and over supply of lawyers https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_firm_leaders_report_lawyer_oversupply_and_chronically_underperforming_l https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_firm_leaders_rep... It's not really a surprise if you tell people that profession x pays universally well long enough, more people will go there than are required, unless the demand for the profession keeps expanding.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    US lawyer pay is weirdly bimodal. First year associates at top firms can make 2-5x more than partners at the median firm. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground in pay, either.
- nradov 4y ago
  A humanities degree can be a great pre-law option for those who want to pursue a legal career. But students need to be realistic about their career prospects. Attorney compensation has a bimodal distribution. The students who graduate from top-10 law schools with good grades and internship experience stand to do very well financially (although the partner track can be brutal on associates). But students who end up at the "third-tier toilet" law schools are setting themselves up for a lifetime of poverty including a serious risk of student loan default.
margarina72 4y ago
why should it took 8 years to pay off? Hosting online text and videos and a gamified social graph would give the knowledge most degree provide. The whole system is over priced. If the goal was really to deliver people with the learning experience they need to go on with a life and career, it could be done at a fraction of the cost it is done today.
ChrisLomont 4y ago
>ideally it would be designed to not take you more than say, 8 years to pay off Making minimum payments always increases the length. How do you define your pay off? For the record [1], in recent years around 58% of bachelor's degree holders incurred debt, with the median at $23,000. If you want to pay over 8 years this is around $3k per year, which should be completely doable for anyone with a bachelors degree over an 8 year span (over 8 years the average person will make far more per year than starting wages). [1] https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/average-student-loan-debt/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/average-student-loan-d...

tsujamin 4y ago

(this sounds like undergraduate university programs in australia…)

analog31 4y ago

There are already separate acceptance requirements for STEM majors based on things like the math prerequisites and minimum GPA requirements. At the university near my house, you need at least a "B" average on your freshman transcript to be accepted into the College of Engineering. Many of the engineering and medical courses have extra fees on top of tuition. Also, the parents of these kids have already paid more by living in school districts with high property valuations, that can provide the necessary preparatory coursework. A not insignificant number of college students have no hope of majoring in STEM even if all of the economics are screaming at them, which they are.

endisneigh 4y ago
The fees you’re describing are not really proportional with the median pay difference, which is more or less my point. The acceptance difference isn’t really that great, either. Not sure what property valuations have to do with anything. For example at all of the ivy leagues there’s no significant difference in tuition for major nor is there really a substantial difference in acceptance rate. Some, like Columbia have different schools, but even within them majors, and prospects, differ.
- analog31 4y ago
  Higher property taxes pay for kids to study in schools where they have a chance of preparing for entry into a competitive STEM program. I taught at a university where students were given a math placement exam before being assigned their freshman courses. Getting into Calculus and passing it with a good grade was a sorting hat for what major you could study. Fees proportional to pay sounds like an income tax.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Again what is the connection between higher property taxes and this competitiveness you’re referring to? California for example has proposition 13 which fixes the tax. Are kids in California less prepared? New Hampshire has higher property tax rates than Massachusetts- are they doing better? Etc. Even if it were true, the most expensive schools are private and so property taxes still would have little relevance to the discussion at hand.

6stringmerc 4y ago

English majors have much better preparation for Law School in the US (as do Philosophy majors) and high acceptance and success rates than Economics or Business or STEM graduates - Lawyers make more money in most fields than any of the professions you mentioned. So why would somebody pursue a limiting career in servant worker degrees of any type? Computer Science isn’t entrepreneur lessons - it’s vocational school with a higher price tag and we all know it. Pretending a BS in CS is harder to get than a BA in Philosophy is laughably sus.

raesene9 4y ago
I'm not sure the "truism" that law is well paid in most plaes is true any more. In the UK for example criminal barristers have been striking due to low pay (sometimes effectively under minimum wage) Then in the US we have evidence of declining salaries https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/median-us-lawyer-income-dropped-over-past-two-decades-economists-find-2022-08-23/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/median-us-lawyer... and over supply of lawyers https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_firm_leaders_report_lawyer_oversupply_and_chronically_underperforming_l https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/law_firm_leaders_rep... It's not really a surprise if you tell people that profession x pays universally well long enough, more people will go there than are required, unless the demand for the profession keeps expanding.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  US lawyer pay is weirdly bimodal. First year associates at top firms can make 2-5x more than partners at the median firm. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground in pay, either.
nradov 4y ago
A humanities degree can be a great pre-law option for those who want to pursue a legal career. But students need to be realistic about their career prospects. Attorney compensation has a bimodal distribution. The students who graduate from top-10 law schools with good grades and internship experience stand to do very well financially (although the partner track can be brutal on associates). But students who end up at the "third-tier toilet" law schools are setting themselves up for a lifetime of poverty including a serious risk of student loan default.

margarina72 4y ago

why should it took 8 years to pay off? Hosting online text and videos and a gamified social graph would give the knowledge most degree provide. The whole system is over priced. If the goal was really to deliver people with the learning experience they need to go on with a life and career, it could be done at a fraction of the cost it is done today.

ChrisLomont 4y ago

>ideally it would be designed to not take you more than say, 8 years to pay off Making minimum payments always increases the length. How do you define your pay off? For the record [1], in recent years around 58% of bachelor's degree holders incurred debt, with the median at $23,000. If you want to pay over 8 years this is around $3k per year, which should be completely doable for anyone with a bachelors degree over an 8 year span (over 8 years the average person will make far more per year than starting wages). [1] https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/average-student-loan-debt/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/average-student-loan-d...