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I'm finding that more and more I'm just starting to agree with people in power because I've realized that in the end it's not my money on the line anyway and ar

I'm finding that more and more I'm just starting to agree with people in power because I've realized that in the end it's not my money on the line anyway and arguing just isn't worth it. You want to use Redis as our primary db? Great idea, boss. You think tests violate DRY and you don't want me to write any? Sir, you're a genius.

LinkLink 4y ago
Theres a difference between acting your pay grade and letting other people shoot themselves in the foot and agreeing with dictators. Edit: Maybe there isn't actually.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- melony 4y ago
  Sir, you are a genius.
- hollywood_court 4y ago
  Sometimes it is best to let your employer shoot themselves in the foot. It is often less stressful than arguing with them. I've certainly heard "I don't pay you to think" and "we'll do it my way because I say so" more than a few times. By the time I reached 25 or so, I just decided to roll with it because I was there to get paid and not to win any battles.
  - nikau 4y ago
    Yep after a while you learn which battles to fight - will the outcome make my life harder? sure I'll fight it hard. If its just a negative for the business but no impact on me I'll point out the issues but wont go any further than that.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    Disagreeing is not arguing. You don’t have to fight decisions. You can politely point that you have reservations or questions about things without being confrontational.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > I've certainly heard "I don't pay you to think" Woah, you have?? Odd -- software engineers, anyway, are literally paid to think. I've never heard anything remotely like that, but if I did, I'm sure I'd start looking for a new place to work. That would be a clear sign that I'm not a good fit in that company.
- drewcoo 4y ago
  > letting other people shoot themselves in the foot Failure is a great tool for learning. How bad will these foot injuries be, given that we'll probably only have two chances to _really_ learn something?
  - lofatdairy 4y ago
    Perhaps I'm at the heady age where I'm cynical enough to know there are people who will keep shooting long after their feet are but bloody stumps, and too immature to do anything about it all the same.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  I was in a position in my last role of being the voice of reason after my boss who was performing that role left. The problem is some leadership truly wants to touch the hot stove, and eventually if you keep saying "don't touch the hot stove".. you're the "doesn't let me touch the stove guy". So sometimes you have to let people touch the hot stove.. as a treat.
liketochill 4y ago
In the hydro electric power industry I work in I find that only people paid to have the responsibility and liability for the results of decisions are the ones that make them. If a call has environmental impacts, or safety of human life is in question people are Pretty quick to kick that problem up the chain and then those folks hire some expert that can be sued if they are wrong.
- zmmmmm 4y ago
  > I find that only people paid to have the responsibility and liability for the results of decisions are the ones that make them This is it really. You can't have responsibility without control over the things you are responsible for. People both below you and above you have to accept that. And "real" responsibility comes only from bearing liability for bad outcomes. Even if formal organizational lines prescribe differently, this is where the real boundaries will lie and to the extent there is any discrepancy it will manifest as organizational dysfunction. I think its a key thing for junior staff who want more autonomy to realize. If you really do want to influence decisions your first step on that pathway should be to pay it forward on commitment and responsibility front. If you don't want to take responsibility its fine, but realize it puts a fundamental limit on your autonomy.
nicoburns 4y ago
If a disagreement with your boss regularly leads to an argument you’re working in a bad place.
- arrow7000 4y ago
  Or you just have a bad boss. Which if the company you're working for has assigned as your boss then yeah, by extension you're working in a bad place.
tlogan 4y ago
Yeah .. sadly that is true in majority of workplaces. The right boss will keep their ego in check and ask: “what do you think? Do have any reservations?” It is also desirable to argue about something: back and forth “but what about this”. But you will need to find boss and place like that. Not very common
rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
Terrible way of thinking. Just saying yes is a sign that you’re not mature enough to communicate your disagreement tactfully and clearly. Also, besides being the one to suffer the implementation of a terrible decision, you will most certainly be blamed for when things eventually blow up farther down the line.
- bluepizza 4y ago
  I don’t think you understand how terrible some managers can be, and how limited job opportunities are in most geographical locations. Outside of the tech hot areas, OP’s advice is the only one that will get you a salary.
  - rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
    > I don’t think you understand how terrible some managers can be Meh, personal attack and you know nothing about me. And the situation where you have to put up with a totalitarian boss because there are no other jobs in your area is so incredibly specific to whatever location you had in mind as an example—you still shouldn’t give it out as general career advice. Saying yes to everything is objectively terrible advice if you want to start a company or work in one where you make great, innovative, and highly valuable products, because that kind of output requires _thinking_ and disagreement occurs when free thought is allowed.
    - bluepizza 4y ago
      No personal attacks, just an assessment based on your lack of flexibility and empathy. Which just happened again. For someone who values free thinking and disagreement, you are having a lot of difficulty handling both at the moment.
thiht 4y ago
That sucks. You’re the one maintaining the code base so you’ll be the one who suffer when something like that explodes. Do you think boss will take responsibility for making bad architecture decisions? My approach is to explain first, and do it my way anyway in case of hard disagreement. If boss disagrees with that what’s he gonna do? Do the job himself? Maybe he’s the boss but I’m in charge of the code base and architecture.
patrulek 4y ago
That is the best we, that are not decisive, can do. You present different options, show pros and cons but someone above you want to do it his way? No problem, just give me this on a paper and take responsibility for the decision, boss.
logical_ferry 4y ago
Exactly. It's your companies money at stake and by keeping the boss happy I get to take a part of that money home with me. It is a financial transaction in the end. Plus I get to see the downsides of another crappy approach and in the end I learn even more than doing things tHe RiGhT wAy.
- tayo42 4y ago
  Unless your oncall then your responsible 24/7 for stupid decisions. Take me off on call and I don't see a reason to every share an opinion.

LinkLink 4y ago

Theres a difference between acting your pay grade and letting other people shoot themselves in the foot and agreeing with dictators. Edit: Maybe there isn't actually.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
melony 4y ago
Sir, you are a genius.
hollywood_court 4y ago
Sometimes it is best to let your employer shoot themselves in the foot. It is often less stressful than arguing with them. I've certainly heard "I don't pay you to think" and "we'll do it my way because I say so" more than a few times. By the time I reached 25 or so, I just decided to roll with it because I was there to get paid and not to win any battles.
- nikau 4y ago
  Yep after a while you learn which battles to fight - will the outcome make my life harder? sure I'll fight it hard. If its just a negative for the business but no impact on me I'll point out the issues but wont go any further than that.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  Disagreeing is not arguing. You don’t have to fight decisions. You can politely point that you have reservations or questions about things without being confrontational.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > I've certainly heard "I don't pay you to think" Woah, you have?? Odd -- software engineers, anyway, are literally paid to think. I've never heard anything remotely like that, but if I did, I'm sure I'd start looking for a new place to work. That would be a clear sign that I'm not a good fit in that company.
drewcoo 4y ago
> letting other people shoot themselves in the foot Failure is a great tool for learning. How bad will these foot injuries be, given that we'll probably only have two chances to _really_ learn something?
- lofatdairy 4y ago
  Perhaps I'm at the heady age where I'm cynical enough to know there are people who will keep shooting long after their feet are but bloody stumps, and too immature to do anything about it all the same.
steveBK123 4y ago
I was in a position in my last role of being the voice of reason after my boss who was performing that role left. The problem is some leadership truly wants to touch the hot stove, and eventually if you keep saying "don't touch the hot stove".. you're the "doesn't let me touch the stove guy". So sometimes you have to let people touch the hot stove.. as a treat.

liketochill 4y ago

In the hydro electric power industry I work in I find that only people paid to have the responsibility and liability for the results of decisions are the ones that make them. If a call has environmental impacts, or safety of human life is in question people are Pretty quick to kick that problem up the chain and then those folks hire some expert that can be sued if they are wrong.

zmmmmm 4y ago
> I find that only people paid to have the responsibility and liability for the results of decisions are the ones that make them This is it really. You can't have responsibility without control over the things you are responsible for. People both below you and above you have to accept that. And "real" responsibility comes only from bearing liability for bad outcomes. Even if formal organizational lines prescribe differently, this is where the real boundaries will lie and to the extent there is any discrepancy it will manifest as organizational dysfunction. I think its a key thing for junior staff who want more autonomy to realize. If you really do want to influence decisions your first step on that pathway should be to pay it forward on commitment and responsibility front. If you don't want to take responsibility its fine, but realize it puts a fundamental limit on your autonomy.

nicoburns 4y ago

If a disagreement with your boss regularly leads to an argument you’re working in a bad place.

arrow7000 4y ago
Or you just have a bad boss. Which if the company you're working for has assigned as your boss then yeah, by extension you're working in a bad place.

tlogan 4y ago

Yeah .. sadly that is true in majority of workplaces. The right boss will keep their ego in check and ask: “what do you think? Do have any reservations?” It is also desirable to argue about something: back and forth “but what about this”. But you will need to find boss and place like that. Not very common

rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago

Terrible way of thinking. Just saying yes is a sign that you’re not mature enough to communicate your disagreement tactfully and clearly. Also, besides being the one to suffer the implementation of a terrible decision, you will most certainly be blamed for when things eventually blow up farther down the line.

bluepizza 4y ago
I don’t think you understand how terrible some managers can be, and how limited job opportunities are in most geographical locations. Outside of the tech hot areas, OP’s advice is the only one that will get you a salary.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 4y ago
  > I don’t think you understand how terrible some managers can be Meh, personal attack and you know nothing about me. And the situation where you have to put up with a totalitarian boss because there are no other jobs in your area is so incredibly specific to whatever location you had in mind as an example—you still shouldn’t give it out as general career advice. Saying yes to everything is objectively terrible advice if you want to start a company or work in one where you make great, innovative, and highly valuable products, because that kind of output requires _thinking_ and disagreement occurs when free thought is allowed.
  - bluepizza 4y ago
    No personal attacks, just an assessment based on your lack of flexibility and empathy. Which just happened again. For someone who values free thinking and disagreement, you are having a lot of difficulty handling both at the moment.

thiht 4y ago

That sucks. You’re the one maintaining the code base so you’ll be the one who suffer when something like that explodes. Do you think boss will take responsibility for making bad architecture decisions? My approach is to explain first, and do it my way anyway in case of hard disagreement. If boss disagrees with that what’s he gonna do? Do the job himself? Maybe he’s the boss but I’m in charge of the code base and architecture.

patrulek 4y ago

That is the best we, that are not decisive, can do. You present different options, show pros and cons but someone above you want to do it his way? No problem, just give me this on a paper and take responsibility for the decision, boss.

logical_ferry 4y ago

Exactly. It's your companies money at stake and by keeping the boss happy I get to take a part of that money home with me. It is a financial transaction in the end. Plus I get to see the downsides of another crappy approach and in the end I learn even more than doing things tHe RiGhT wAy.

tayo42 4y ago
Unless your oncall then your responsible 24/7 for stupid decisions. Take me off on call and I don't see a reason to every share an opinion.