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They're just misinformed. The US health care industry is among those most heavily enmeshed with government at all levels (regulation, gatekeeping employment, f

by bm3719 4y ago

They're just misinformed. The US health care industry is among those most heavily enmeshed with government at all levels (regulation, gatekeeping employment, funding/subsidizing, etc.). Whether you think it's good or not, most everyone would agree that level of involvement would result in a heavy distortion from what the free market would provide on its own. One rhetorical approach might be to say that since this is already the case, let's acknowledge that reality, then decide whether to increase/decrease/alter that reality.

CogitoCogito 4y ago
I don’t think it’s just that they’re misinformed. It’s the fact many can’t even consider that they might be wrong. Often they take a critique of the American system as a critique of them personally. It’s totally counterproductive to any potential improvement of society. I find it quite depressing.
- harwoodleon 4y ago
  well, markets with broken incentives can be dangerous for humans, especially when the product is your life, which is literally priceless.
- thayne 4y ago
  > It’s the fact many can’t even consider that they might be wrong. What you mean like saying that the only explanation for disagreeing with them is not being capable of rational thought? This is a major problem in American politics, maybe the biggest problem. Neither side is willing to accept they might be wrong, or even partly wrong. Or even really listen to the other side's position. I agree with you that that other countries have better healthcare, and we should try and make ours like theirs. But ad hominem attacks on the other side are not productive and do nothing to convince them.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    > What you mean like saying that the only explanation for disagreeing with them is not being capable of rational thought? Honestly, what are you talking about? What am I disagreeing with exactly? Could you be a little more specific? > I agree with you that that other countries have better healthcare, and we should try and make ours like theirs. But ad hominem attacks on the other side are not productive and do nothing to convince them. How is this an ad hominem? I’m making these statements in general to a certain audience on hacker news. I’m not making it to any specific individuals. Just because I think many Americans are idiots doesn’t mean I tell them that directly. I pretend like their nonsense isn’t nonsense because they’re more receptive to that. In other words, I do basically the opposite of ad hominem attacks when engaging with these people. I talked to them quite patiently. But yes I do believe many of them are morons. Edit: The more I read your post the more confused I get. What side am I on exactly? The side that believes that American healthcare outcomes could be better? I could hold that opinion even if I thought more—not less—deregulation is necessary. I’m not complaining about people who want to improve American healthcare even by making things “more free market”. I’m complain about idiots (and yes they are idiots) who can’t fathom that other systems might have better outcomes because they are “socialist”. They don’t even consider statistics and analysis they just conclude the US is better because our system must be. That is inexcusable and basically incompatible with any progress in society.
    - thayne 4y ago
      I see, I misunderstood what you were trying to say, because I have never encountered anyone who didn't think the American health care system could be better. Although, I don't doubt that such people exist.
      - CogitoCogito 4y ago
        You haven’t met Americans who think European systems are worse because they are “socialist”? Seriously? It’s a pretty common political talking point. I’m kind of amazed you wouldn’t have been exposed to these ideas.
        4y ago
thayne 4y ago
I know many people who oppose "socialized healthcare", and they definitely agree that the current system is broken, but they think the solution is to decrease government involvement and/or make it more competitive.

by bm3719 4y ago

CogitoCogito 4y ago

I don’t think it’s just that they’re misinformed. It’s the fact many can’t even consider that they might be wrong. Often they take a critique of the American system as a critique of them personally. It’s totally counterproductive to any potential improvement of society. I find it quite depressing.

harwoodleon 4y ago
well, markets with broken incentives can be dangerous for humans, especially when the product is your life, which is literally priceless.
thayne 4y ago
> It’s the fact many can’t even consider that they might be wrong. What you mean like saying that the only explanation for disagreeing with them is not being capable of rational thought? This is a major problem in American politics, maybe the biggest problem. Neither side is willing to accept they might be wrong, or even partly wrong. Or even really listen to the other side's position. I agree with you that that other countries have better healthcare, and we should try and make ours like theirs. But ad hominem attacks on the other side are not productive and do nothing to convince them.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  > What you mean like saying that the only explanation for disagreeing with them is not being capable of rational thought? Honestly, what are you talking about? What am I disagreeing with exactly? Could you be a little more specific? > I agree with you that that other countries have better healthcare, and we should try and make ours like theirs. But ad hominem attacks on the other side are not productive and do nothing to convince them. How is this an ad hominem? I’m making these statements in general to a certain audience on hacker news. I’m not making it to any specific individuals. Just because I think many Americans are idiots doesn’t mean I tell them that directly. I pretend like their nonsense isn’t nonsense because they’re more receptive to that. In other words, I do basically the opposite of ad hominem attacks when engaging with these people. I talked to them quite patiently. But yes I do believe many of them are morons. Edit: The more I read your post the more confused I get. What side am I on exactly? The side that believes that American healthcare outcomes could be better? I could hold that opinion even if I thought more—not less—deregulation is necessary. I’m not complaining about people who want to improve American healthcare even by making things “more free market”. I’m complain about idiots (and yes they are idiots) who can’t fathom that other systems might have better outcomes because they are “socialist”. They don’t even consider statistics and analysis they just conclude the US is better because our system must be. That is inexcusable and basically incompatible with any progress in society.
  - thayne 4y ago
    I see, I misunderstood what you were trying to say, because I have never encountered anyone who didn't think the American health care system could be better. Although, I don't doubt that such people exist.
    - CogitoCogito 4y ago
      You haven’t met Americans who think European systems are worse because they are “socialist”? Seriously? It’s a pretty common political talking point. I’m kind of amazed you wouldn’t have been exposed to these ideas.
      - 4y ago

thayne 4y ago

I know many people who oppose "socialized healthcare", and they definitely agree that the current system is broken, but they think the solution is to decrease government involvement and/or make it more competitive.