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>> With the danger of hurting HN Rust hipsters... Language does not matter (sorry guys). There are also a lot of Rust haters, and people unwilling to change.

>> With the danger of hurting HN Rust hipsters... Language does not matter (sorry guys). There are also a lot of Rust haters, and people unwilling to change. From the Cloudflare blog: >> We chose Rust as the language of the project because it can do what C can do in a memory safe way without compromising performance. So in their opinion language choice matters. I'm not a Rust hipster, but I do believe in the promises the language makes. Assuming they didn't write any unsafe Rust it's pretty much assured that the new proxy contains ZERO bugs of certain types. See what I did there? I made a (contingent) assertion about the non-existence for entire classes of bugs in a code-base I have not seen, based on the language it is written in. So from that point of view Language does matter.

hailwren 4y ago
Language choice doesn’t matter when you have a correct and fast program. The trick is getting there.
- phkahler 4y ago
  >> Language choice doesn’t matter when you have a correct and fast program. The trick is getting there. Language choice can influence how fast or slow you get there, and also the level of certainty you have. Again, Rust guarantees certain bugs and race conditions do not exist, so in a sense we START from there and never have to worry about "getting there".
- seanhunter 4y ago
  If I had ham, I could make ham and eggs, if I had eggs. You’re begging the question.
  - hailwren 4y ago
    That was the point of the second sentence. The trick is getting there.
Kukumber 4y ago
What hurt rust is the fanboys Look at the original title: "How we built Pingora, the proxy that connects Cloudflare to the Internet" And look what's being reported "rust-written", it's not the case with any other languages, and that's why some people are against it, because fanboyism takes over rational decisions Nobody mention the language for the countless new AI/ML based projects
- manfre 4y ago
  The "written in rust" has gotten to the point where I notice myself treating it the same as any other spam/ad. Turned me off from learning the language, which is a shame.
  - nindalf 4y ago
    That’s a strange decision making strategy. What did you do when everyone around you was taking the Covid vaccine? Did you decide to skip it because too many people were recommending it?
    - freeopinion 4y ago
      Funny you should bring up that question. I was recently told, "You know when every government in the world is pushing a vaccination that it must be a trap." Strange decision-making strategy, indeed.
    - manfre 4y ago
      Comparing my decision to not learn a specific technology in my free time because a very vocal subset of its community is off putting to COVID tells me two things. 1. Using such a false equivalency means you have no actual argument against my decision making strategy, 2. You're likely part of the subset.
      - nindalf 4y ago
        I’ve met people who decide not to do things because they feel like they’re being forced into it when they receive too many recommendations. So someone saying “oh $language is great, it worked really well for me” is clearly upsetting you. I thought “$vaccine has boosted my chances of survival with minimal side effects” might have upset you as well.
ducktective 4y ago
> and people unwilling to change I mean the guy used clojure, a functional lispy language with emphasis on immutability. It's as "change embracing" as it gets in webdev when phrases like LAMP stack, MEAN stack are the norm.
flumpcakes 4y ago
> Assuming they didn't write any unsafe Rust it's pretty much assured that the new proxy contains ZERO bugs of certain types. And assuming that the libraries you depend on also don't have any `unsafe` bugs. This is something people seem to forget when discussing rust. And "the unsafe is well tested" sounds similar to "this legacy C code is well tested". I like rust the language but have consistently negative experiences with evangelists. Here are some other things that make rust a good choice for developing low level systems: - Zero cost abstractions like in C++ - A strong type system (and lifetime annotations built into the language, less need for the grind tools) - In general a stricter language than C++ with far less legacy options - Newer language with a de facto package manager and build system There's a lot to like about rust without just saying it's "safer" which is highly nuanced and people seemingly never actually go into the details. I've had many negative votes for even suggesting than C is currently a better choice for Linux Kernel development compared to Rust. People will just say "Rust is safer" and that's the end of the conversation...
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  "This legacy C code" usually has millions of lines. "The unsafe parts" are usually on the few dozens. The safety is also conditional on rustc not having bugs, and your computer working correctly. But you don't get to pretend those are as risky as some large random, less used C code.
  - unrealhoang 4y ago
    Not only that but also the clear boundary of responsibility. If there’s a way to use a library in safe Rust that cause UAF, that’s the library problem. In C, it’s because you are using it wrong.

hailwren 4y ago

Language choice doesn’t matter when you have a correct and fast program. The trick is getting there.

phkahler 4y ago
>> Language choice doesn’t matter when you have a correct and fast program. The trick is getting there. Language choice can influence how fast or slow you get there, and also the level of certainty you have. Again, Rust guarantees certain bugs and race conditions do not exist, so in a sense we START from there and never have to worry about "getting there".
seanhunter 4y ago
If I had ham, I could make ham and eggs, if I had eggs. You’re begging the question.
- hailwren 4y ago
  That was the point of the second sentence. The trick is getting there.

Kukumber 4y ago

What hurt rust is the fanboys Look at the original title: "How we built Pingora, the proxy that connects Cloudflare to the Internet" And look what's being reported "rust-written", it's not the case with any other languages, and that's why some people are against it, because fanboyism takes over rational decisions Nobody mention the language for the countless new AI/ML based projects

manfre 4y ago
The "written in rust" has gotten to the point where I notice myself treating it the same as any other spam/ad. Turned me off from learning the language, which is a shame.
- nindalf 4y ago
  That’s a strange decision making strategy. What did you do when everyone around you was taking the Covid vaccine? Did you decide to skip it because too many people were recommending it?
  - freeopinion 4y ago
    Funny you should bring up that question. I was recently told, "You know when every government in the world is pushing a vaccination that it must be a trap." Strange decision-making strategy, indeed.
  - manfre 4y ago
    Comparing my decision to not learn a specific technology in my free time because a very vocal subset of its community is off putting to COVID tells me two things. 1. Using such a false equivalency means you have no actual argument against my decision making strategy, 2. You're likely part of the subset.
    - nindalf 4y ago
      I’ve met people who decide not to do things because they feel like they’re being forced into it when they receive too many recommendations. So someone saying “oh $language is great, it worked really well for me” is clearly upsetting you. I thought “$vaccine has boosted my chances of survival with minimal side effects” might have upset you as well.

ducktective 4y ago

> and people unwilling to change I mean the guy used clojure, a functional lispy language with emphasis on immutability. It's as "change embracing" as it gets in webdev when phrases like LAMP stack, MEAN stack are the norm.

flumpcakes 4y ago

> Assuming they didn't write any unsafe Rust it's pretty much assured that the new proxy contains ZERO bugs of certain types. And assuming that the libraries you depend on also don't have any `unsafe` bugs. This is something people seem to forget when discussing rust. And "the unsafe is well tested" sounds similar to "this legacy C code is well tested". I like rust the language but have consistently negative experiences with evangelists. Here are some other things that make rust a good choice for developing low level systems: - Zero cost abstractions like in C++ - A strong type system (and lifetime annotations built into the language, less need for the grind tools) - In general a stricter language than C++ with far less legacy options - Newer language with a de facto package manager and build system There's a lot to like about rust without just saying it's "safer" which is highly nuanced and people seemingly never actually go into the details. I've had many negative votes for even suggesting than C is currently a better choice for Linux Kernel development compared to Rust. People will just say "Rust is safer" and that's the end of the conversation...

marcosdumay 4y ago
"This legacy C code" usually has millions of lines. "The unsafe parts" are usually on the few dozens. The safety is also conditional on rustc not having bugs, and your computer working correctly. But you don't get to pretend those are as risky as some large random, less used C code.
- unrealhoang 4y ago
  Not only that but also the clear boundary of responsibility. If there’s a way to use a library in safe Rust that cause UAF, that’s the library problem. In C, it’s because you are using it wrong.