5 ms·

Next-gen BMW EVs to get new battery tech for 620-mile range

34 points by revertmean 4y ago

krolden 4y ago
But it will only go 150 miles unless you pay for the mileage boost subscription for an extra $40/month.
- 404mm 4y ago
  When I saw the announcement about subscription fee in Asia for heated seats… I thought I was reading The Onion. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscription...
mikestew 4y ago
There are two companies that have been huge disappointments in the EV space: Nissan and BMW. Nissan (from which we purchased the OG Leaf we still have), because they just sat on their laurels with a car that quickly got overtaken by other brands. BMW, because like Nissan they squandered their lead. And because squandering their lead wasn't enough, the CEO from a while back basically came out and said they didn't think EVs were the future (or something like that). And so now I'm supposed to believe BMW is all-in on EVs? Meh, as much as we like our BMW motorcycles, I think we're just going to pass on BMW for now, as much as we might lust after the EV M version. Convince us you're committed, BMW, and we can talk again in a few years.
- potatochup 4y ago
  What lead did BMW ever have? The i3 was always way overpriced for the range and size. Agree on Nissan though. The leaf used to be the only cheapish EV available in the USA but Chevys newer products and prices look far more competitive
  - mikestew 4y ago
    Over-priced? For what it was, yes, but some of that was the BMW badge. And the interior was nicer than the competition, too. But the lead I'm referring to is being one of the first three to mass-produce EVs, and one of those three was an unknown (Tesla). BMW already knew how to build cars, they just needed to learn how to electrify them. Tesla had to go learn how to build cars, which I'll assume was harder than electrifying something you already know how to build. So while Tesla was jamming pieces of 2x4 wood into fender panels, and zip-tying pieces together, Tesla was still becoming BMW faster than BMW was becoming Tesla (to horribly butcher a Netflix CEO's words). Only the last couple of years have seen BMW trickle out something that isn't an i3. As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
    - colinjoy 4y ago
      The challenge for legacy car makers seems to be less about electrifying the drive train and more about moving to a capable software architecture and UX.
      - heisenzombie 4y ago
        I agree you’re probably right, but it frustrates me because I don’t understand why changing the drivetrain has become linked in peoples heads with lots of software and UI changes in the cabin. They should be totally orthogonal! That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
        potatochup 4y ago
        Agreed. Tesla needed flashy new tech to attract early adopter buyers, and also to attract talented engineers. Now that EVs are somewhat accepted by mainstream, only now we see the likes of Ford coming out with the comparatively normal EV F150.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  Two weeks ago I rented a BMW X5 that was a plug-in hybrid. I was blown away by the driving feel. But maybe that's to be expected for a BMW vehicle. But I also think it's a really good vehicle from the environmental point of view. It has a battery-only range of 31 miles. The typical daily commute in the US is about 40 miles, if you do that, you'd burn gas for less than 10 miles per day. If you are lucky and can charge at work, then if you commute less than 60 miles per day on electricity only. In other words, you could drive in electric mode 90% of your miles, if not more, and never have any range anxiety.
- thisarticle 4y ago
  If Nissan and BMW are disappointments I have to wonder how badly you think of Toyota.
  - darkteflon 4y ago
    Came here to say this. Not only are Toyota dragging their heels on EV development, but they also - famously - spend huge sums of money to thwart stricter emissions legislation in California (which has historically had an outsize influence on Federal standards), Japan and elsewhere.[1] This shameful conduct gets a big fat zero, nada, zilch coverage in Toyota’s home country. I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606
  - mikestew 4y ago
    Late reply to say that when it comes to Toyota and EVs, it goes beyond disappointment: I don’t think about Toyota at all. Until you invoked their name, I had forgotten that they’re even working on an EV.
turtlebits 4y ago
Such a misleading title. "30% or more range than our current Gen5" would be a better title. They don't have any cars with 475 mile range (ie 1.3x = ~620).
foxyv 4y ago
With how efficient battery electric vehicles are, when the batteries reach higher energy densities, we will see insane ranges. If a Tesla's battery had the same energy density as gasoline, it would have a range of roughly 30,000 miles. Then again, the Tesla battery weighs as much as 200 gallons of gasoline. This leaves so much room for gains in the BEV market as battery technology improves. One day they will look at current model Teslas the same way we look at Nissan Leafs from the 2010s with a 30-40 mile range. Edit: 2000s -> 2010s Dear god
- akomtu 4y ago
  A fair comparison would be 80 gallons of gas and 120 gallons of liquid oxygen. Still, we are talking about 8,000 miles.
  - DesiLurker 4y ago
    A fairer comparison would be to create a series hybrid with gasoline and minimum battery size. then the energy output of total gasoline + engine efficiency (~30%) vs battery + EV motor efficiency. the reason I insist this is because there is a thermodynamic efficiency maximum for engines so physics caps getting energy out of gas engines. then the numbers become more realistic.
  - foxyv 4y ago
    Yeah, most batteries have to carry their own oxidizer, so I guess this would be a more fair comparison. I guess that's an advantage of an air breathing engine/motor. However there are air breathing batteries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I was going to say that it's a weird coincidence that CATL also announced a 620 mile range, then I realised it's a nice round 1000Km. CATL is the supplier they use though, and they intend to deliver this 2 years before BMW. All the low carbon and recycling stuff is great, but overall feels super weak and late to the game.
jjtheblunt 4y ago
BMW is working on hydrogen fuel-cell for next-gen EVs too: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0403302EN/bmw-group-commences-in-house-production-of-fuel-cells-for-bmw-ix5-hydrogen-in-munich https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T040330...
- panick21_ 4y ago
  BMW made the disastrous internal choice to not do BEV architecture but do architectures that can support anything ICE, PHEV, BEV and hydrogen. This has backfired on them and they lost the leadership position they once had. These hydrogen cars are mostly fantasy, good for marketing and have essentially no adoption at all.
  - jjtheblunt 4y ago
    BMW i3 (late 2013-2022) and its direct successor iX are both clean sheet designed BEVs. Toyota has had a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle lease program in southern california for at least 5 years, but, to your point, adoption is constrained because hydrogen fueling infrastructure was purpose built to test the idea, and so is not at all widely available.
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      Yes, they did the i3 and some stuff and they were early in on a lot of that stuff, but then for their next major product cycle they didn't go to BEV. You can still find articles about where BMW proudly talked about their multi technology architecture and how all-electric architectures were a bad idea. This lead to a number of BMW people who worked on those electric programs to leave. > and so is not at all widely available It wont be widely available in the future because its just to expensive to build compared to charging. Tesla model would not have worked if they had to build hydrogen stations.
more_corn 4y ago
And every option is a subscription. Never buy a BMW.
yrgulation 4y ago
BMW is such a disappointment. Not just overpriced but also low quality. They turboed engines to a point where turbines are now consumables given how often they break, not to mention flakey electronics. Hopefully the ev revolution will make bmw, merc and vw a thing of the past.
- mrlonglong 4y ago
  What really pisses me off is that my N53 has a bad injector and BMW have over 30,000 on back order and there's been no word on when they'll be manufacturing new ones. Cold starts are a joy at the moment /s
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    I would give scrapyards a try for a stop gap solution. You could find perfectly working parts until new stock is in place.
slaw 4y ago
BMW iX has range 290 miles @ 75 MPH. To more than double range in just 3 years BMW needs some real breakthrough technology. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39983612/2022-bmw-ix-tested-interior-sound-highway-range/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39983612/2022-bmw-ix-test...
hedora 4y ago
I really would like to be able to upgrade to new battery tech over time. (Either to reduce weight or extend range.) They say the US is mandating 80% of original range after 10 years. Maybe they'll tack a right to repair/upgrade clause in there too.

34 points by revertmean 4y ago

krolden 4y ago

But it will only go 150 miles unless you pay for the mileage boost subscription for an extra $40/month.

404mm 4y ago
When I saw the announcement about subscription fee in Asia for heated seats… I thought I was reading The Onion. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscriptions-microtransactions-heated-seats-feature https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/12/23204950/bmw-subscription...

mikestew 4y ago

There are two companies that have been huge disappointments in the EV space: Nissan and BMW. Nissan (from which we purchased the OG Leaf we still have), because they just sat on their laurels with a car that quickly got overtaken by other brands. BMW, because like Nissan they squandered their lead. And because squandering their lead wasn't enough, the CEO from a while back basically came out and said they didn't think EVs were the future (or something like that). And so now I'm supposed to believe BMW is all-in on EVs? Meh, as much as we like our BMW motorcycles, I think we're just going to pass on BMW for now, as much as we might lust after the EV M version. Convince us you're committed, BMW, and we can talk again in a few years.

potatochup 4y ago
What lead did BMW ever have? The i3 was always way overpriced for the range and size. Agree on Nissan though. The leaf used to be the only cheapish EV available in the USA but Chevys newer products and prices look far more competitive
- mikestew 4y ago
  Over-priced? For what it was, yes, but some of that was the BMW badge. And the interior was nicer than the competition, too. But the lead I'm referring to is being one of the first three to mass-produce EVs, and one of those three was an unknown (Tesla). BMW already knew how to build cars, they just needed to learn how to electrify them. Tesla had to go learn how to build cars, which I'll assume was harder than electrifying something you already know how to build. So while Tesla was jamming pieces of 2x4 wood into fender panels, and zip-tying pieces together, Tesla was still becoming BMW faster than BMW was becoming Tesla (to horribly butcher a Netflix CEO's words). Only the last couple of years have seen BMW trickle out something that isn't an i3. As for Nissan, I'm with you on Chevy's competition. But I was on about how they were the first modern manufacturer of mass-produced BEVs and eleven years later...they still have just the one model that sits on the low-end. And as you point out, that singular model's lunch is probably getting eaten by Chevy Bolts.
  - colinjoy 4y ago
    The challenge for legacy car makers seems to be less about electrifying the drive train and more about moving to a capable software architecture and UX.
    - heisenzombie 4y ago
      I agree you’re probably right, but it frustrates me because I don’t understand why changing the drivetrain has become linked in peoples heads with lots of software and UI changes in the cabin. They should be totally orthogonal! That said if BMW had bought out a 5 series that was absolutely identical in the cabin apart from the fuel gauge showing battery and the tachometer showing energy out/regen — would that not have been a super popular product?
      - potatochup 4y ago
        Agreed. Tesla needed flashy new tech to attract early adopter buyers, and also to attract talented engineers. Now that EVs are somewhat accepted by mainstream, only now we see the likes of Ford coming out with the comparatively normal EV F150.
credit_guy 4y ago
Two weeks ago I rented a BMW X5 that was a plug-in hybrid. I was blown away by the driving feel. But maybe that's to be expected for a BMW vehicle. But I also think it's a really good vehicle from the environmental point of view. It has a battery-only range of 31 miles. The typical daily commute in the US is about 40 miles, if you do that, you'd burn gas for less than 10 miles per day. If you are lucky and can charge at work, then if you commute less than 60 miles per day on electricity only. In other words, you could drive in electric mode 90% of your miles, if not more, and never have any range anxiety.
thisarticle 4y ago
If Nissan and BMW are disappointments I have to wonder how badly you think of Toyota.
- darkteflon 4y ago
  Came here to say this. Not only are Toyota dragging their heels on EV development, but they also - famously - spend huge sums of money to thwart stricter emissions legislation in California (which has historically had an outsize influence on Federal standards), Japan and elsewhere.[1] This shameful conduct gets a big fat zero, nada, zilch coverage in Toyota’s home country. I wish more people would call them out on their hypocritical bullshit but they continue to successfully coast on their friendly “cool Japan” _kaizen_ reputation while quietly dragging us out the back to slit our throats. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27961606
- mikestew 4y ago
  Late reply to say that when it comes to Toyota and EVs, it goes beyond disappointment: I don’t think about Toyota at all. Until you invoked their name, I had forgotten that they’re even working on an EV.

turtlebits 4y ago

Such a misleading title. "30% or more range than our current Gen5" would be a better title. They don't have any cars with 475 mile range (ie 1.3x = ~620).

foxyv 4y ago

With how efficient battery electric vehicles are, when the batteries reach higher energy densities, we will see insane ranges. If a Tesla's battery had the same energy density as gasoline, it would have a range of roughly 30,000 miles. Then again, the Tesla battery weighs as much as 200 gallons of gasoline. This leaves so much room for gains in the BEV market as battery technology improves. One day they will look at current model Teslas the same way we look at Nissan Leafs from the 2010s with a 30-40 mile range. Edit: 2000s -> 2010s Dear god

akomtu 4y ago
A fair comparison would be 80 gallons of gas and 120 gallons of liquid oxygen. Still, we are talking about 8,000 miles.
- DesiLurker 4y ago
  A fairer comparison would be to create a series hybrid with gasoline and minimum battery size. then the energy output of total gasoline + engine efficiency (~30%) vs battery + EV motor efficiency. the reason I insist this is because there is a thermodynamic efficiency maximum for engines so physics caps getting energy out of gas engines. then the numbers become more realistic.
- foxyv 4y ago
  Yeah, most batteries have to carry their own oxidizer, so I guess this would be a more fair comparison. I guess that's an advantage of an air breathing engine/motor. However there are air breathing batteries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

I was going to say that it's a weird coincidence that CATL also announced a 620 mile range, then I realised it's a nice round 1000Km. CATL is the supplier they use though, and they intend to deliver this 2 years before BMW. All the low carbon and recycling stuff is great, but overall feels super weak and late to the game.

jjtheblunt 4y ago

BMW is working on hydrogen fuel-cell for next-gen EVs too: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0403302EN/bmw-group-commences-in-house-production-of-fuel-cells-for-bmw-ix5-hydrogen-in-munich https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T040330...

panick21_ 4y ago
BMW made the disastrous internal choice to not do BEV architecture but do architectures that can support anything ICE, PHEV, BEV and hydrogen. This has backfired on them and they lost the leadership position they once had. These hydrogen cars are mostly fantasy, good for marketing and have essentially no adoption at all.
- jjtheblunt 4y ago
  BMW i3 (late 2013-2022) and its direct successor iX are both clean sheet designed BEVs. Toyota has had a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle lease program in southern california for at least 5 years, but, to your point, adoption is constrained because hydrogen fueling infrastructure was purpose built to test the idea, and so is not at all widely available.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    Yes, they did the i3 and some stuff and they were early in on a lot of that stuff, but then for their next major product cycle they didn't go to BEV. You can still find articles about where BMW proudly talked about their multi technology architecture and how all-electric architectures were a bad idea. This lead to a number of BMW people who worked on those electric programs to leave. > and so is not at all widely available It wont be widely available in the future because its just to expensive to build compared to charging. Tesla model would not have worked if they had to build hydrogen stations.

more_corn 4y ago

And every option is a subscription. Never buy a BMW.

yrgulation 4y ago

BMW is such a disappointment. Not just overpriced but also low quality. They turboed engines to a point where turbines are now consumables given how often they break, not to mention flakey electronics. Hopefully the ev revolution will make bmw, merc and vw a thing of the past.

mrlonglong 4y ago
What really pisses me off is that my N53 has a bad injector and BMW have over 30,000 on back order and there's been no word on when they'll be manufacturing new ones. Cold starts are a joy at the moment /s
- yrgulation 4y ago
  I would give scrapyards a try for a stop gap solution. You could find perfectly working parts until new stock is in place.

slaw 4y ago

BMW iX has range 290 miles @ 75 MPH. To more than double range in just 3 years BMW needs some real breakthrough technology. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39983612/2022-bmw-ix-tested-interior-sound-highway-range/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39983612/2022-bmw-ix-test...

hedora 4y ago

I really would like to be able to upgrade to new battery tech over time. (Either to reduce weight or extend range.) They say the US is mandating 80% of original range after 10 years. Maybe they'll tack a right to repair/upgrade clause in there too.