4 ms·

Oh, come on. No one considers Seamus Heaney a “British poet,” even though he was born in Northern Ireland. He’s Irish. I don’t think the Welsh or the Scots plac

Oh, come on. No one considers Seamus Heaney a “British poet,” even though he was born in Northern Ireland. He’s Irish. I don’t think the Welsh or the Scots place much emphasis on being “British,” either. It’s a perfectly sensible designation to call Stoppard an English playwright.

harry8 4y ago
It may be sensible in a given context on which I express no view but it is not pedantically correct. The context here is an expression of nationality while claiming pedantry. If one were to refer to Seamsus Heaney's nationality at birth, it sounds as though "Irish" would be wrong. Whatever one thinks about what should have been in that part of the world, or should be today or does not. In a different context he may be culturally more Irish than Irish for all I know as I'm not familiar with him or his work.
- cbfrench 4y ago
  But that’s not how we designate authors in the field. When you’re discussing the various literatures in English, nationality in the political sense is effectively meaningless. Robert Burns was born in Scotland after the Act of Union of 1707, but no one refers to him as a “British poet.” He’s Scottish. Likewise, Heaney is an Irish poet, David Jones is a Welsh poet, and so forth. Those distinctions matter within the field of literary study, so it’s not really even a matter of being “pedantically” correct. It’s simply not how we classify authors within the various literatures that generally fall under the umbrella of “English literature.” To call Stoppard an English playwright (rather than a Scottish or Welsh or American playwright) has a significance in identifying the particular tradition within which he works. Moreover, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are recognized as constituent countries of the United Kingdom. (And is should be noted that “Great Britain” only encompasses England, Scotland, and Wales—not N. Ireland. So it’s definitely incorrect to refer to a N. Irelander as “British.”) They aren’t simply states in the way Texas or Tennessee are. They are countries with devolved governments, and are recognized as such by the UK government. As such, it seems entirely fitting, even from a political and pedantic standpoint, to refer to someone as belonging to the particular country from which he hails. E: Probably also worth noting, since we’re being pedantic, that OC’s comment that “the man is quite English” need not refer to his nationality per se. It could just as easily mean that Stoppard is culturally “quite English” rather than indicating which national gov’t issues his passport.
  - frosted-flakes 4y ago
    Northen Ireland is still part of Britain, if not Great Britain.
    - cl0ckt0wer 4y ago
      This thread is literally NoTrueScottsman
      - rtev 4y ago
        And the most HN thing ever!
        ohruvdjv 4y ago
  - Veen 4y ago
    > So it’s definitely incorrect to refer to a N. Irelander as “British.” That's a complex issue. Many Northern Irish people do consider themselves to be British and others consider themselves to be Irish. As you might expect, their preferred identity is often related to whether they are members of the Protestant/Unionist or Catholic/Nationalist communities (this is a significant oversimplification).

harry8 4y ago

It may be sensible in a given context on which I express no view but it is not pedantically correct. The context here is an expression of nationality while claiming pedantry. If one were to refer to Seamsus Heaney's nationality at birth, it sounds as though "Irish" would be wrong. Whatever one thinks about what should have been in that part of the world, or should be today or does not. In a different context he may be culturally more Irish than Irish for all I know as I'm not familiar with him or his work.

cbfrench 4y ago
But that’s not how we designate authors in the field. When you’re discussing the various literatures in English, nationality in the political sense is effectively meaningless. Robert Burns was born in Scotland after the Act of Union of 1707, but no one refers to him as a “British poet.” He’s Scottish. Likewise, Heaney is an Irish poet, David Jones is a Welsh poet, and so forth. Those distinctions matter within the field of literary study, so it’s not really even a matter of being “pedantically” correct. It’s simply not how we classify authors within the various literatures that generally fall under the umbrella of “English literature.” To call Stoppard an English playwright (rather than a Scottish or Welsh or American playwright) has a significance in identifying the particular tradition within which he works. Moreover, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are recognized as constituent countries of the United Kingdom. (And is should be noted that “Great Britain” only encompasses England, Scotland, and Wales—not N. Ireland. So it’s definitely incorrect to refer to a N. Irelander as “British.”) They aren’t simply states in the way Texas or Tennessee are. They are countries with devolved governments, and are recognized as such by the UK government. As such, it seems entirely fitting, even from a political and pedantic standpoint, to refer to someone as belonging to the particular country from which he hails. E: Probably also worth noting, since we’re being pedantic, that OC’s comment that “the man is quite English” need not refer to his nationality per se. It could just as easily mean that Stoppard is culturally “quite English” rather than indicating which national gov’t issues his passport.
- frosted-flakes 4y ago
  Northen Ireland is still part of Britain, if not Great Britain.
  - cl0ckt0wer 4y ago
    This thread is literally NoTrueScottsman
    - rtev 4y ago
      And the most HN thing ever!
      - ohruvdjv 4y ago
- Veen 4y ago
  > So it’s definitely incorrect to refer to a N. Irelander as “British.” That's a complex issue. Many Northern Irish people do consider themselves to be British and others consider themselves to be Irish. As you might expect, their preferred identity is often related to whether they are members of the Protestant/Unionist or Catholic/Nationalist communities (this is a significant oversimplification).