7 ms·

I have no real problems being people wanting to work remotely now and forever but I do think this is going to require a new legal framework to support it. For

I have no real problems being people wanting to work remotely now and forever but I do think this is going to require a new legal framework to support it. For better or worse there are very real tax issues associated with employees working in states and countries different than what their employer and government believes. A lot of these folks are knowingly or unknowingly dodging taxes in a way that is going to have severe consequences for them and company. Establishing a tax base in a new city or state can put a company on the hook for thousand if not millions of dollars worth of additional taxes. And for the worker if you’re company isn’t withholding the right amount of state federal and local taxes you can find yourself with a huge tax bill at the end of the year.

creaghpatr 4y ago
On the bright side, we'll have 87,000 new IRS agents to catch these unwitting tax cheats.
- MisterTea 4y ago
  Its 2022. An AI will automate it.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Yes. Badly, with arbitrary punishments for those it finds out of compliance, and no appeals.
    - MisterTea 4y ago
      I should have included the /s tag as the humor appears to be lost on most.
      - actually_a_dog 4y ago
        To be perfectly fair, I don't think "It's $DATE, that should be automated by AI by now" is really a joking matter on this site, considering the audience. :)
- dfxm12 4y ago
  I don't think the IRS agents will catch the guy in the article who allegedly lives and works in England, but actually lives in Thailand and works in England :)
jimcavel888 4y ago
srk_hn 4y ago
Real question: Strictly speaking from a software engineering perspective, who cares? Why does a framework of taxes created by people who don't understand technology get to decide where I move around to? I signed up for your job in a certain location and a certain date. That doesn't entitle you to keep track of where I am the rest of my life. As long as I'm able to be reached at the initially agreed upon location, regardless of how I maintain that communications channel, I never agreed to let you dictate where I live and move to and frankly nobody has that right. Or is my body my choice just a convenient catchphrase for one topic only?
- EveYoung 4y ago
  Well, you should care about it because laws apply to you whether you agree with them or not. So, at the end of the day both you and your employer will have to cover those costs. But nobody is preventing you from moving, you just might have to quit and look for a new job.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  > Real question: Strictly speaking from a software engineering perspective, who cares? Why does a framework of taxes created by people who don't understand technology get to decide where I move around to? Real answer: The "software engineering perspective" you have here is irrelevant to tax/immigration law. Taxation is based on where you live and work (physically). And countries very much get their say on whether or not they'll allow you to live there, for how long, and for what purposes.
- guhidalg 4y ago
  Serious answer: Wherever you choose to live, you benefit directly or indirectly from services paid through taxes. Maybe your employer doesn't care where you live, but the jurisdiction where YOU are does care about where you work because you are being paid but you are not paying what others around you are paying to live there. This is a 3-sided relationship between you, your employer, and the civil society you live in and WFH in a different country is unfair to one side of that triangle.
  - 4y ago
fantod 4y ago
Not to mention visa and health insurance issues.
codegeek 4y ago
Yep. When I am hiring remote in US (out of state), we put a condition in the contract that you will notify us if you are planning to move from your home state because we may have to establish tax residency/nexus in that state as an employer. If an employee moves somewhere else and lies about it, it can put both the employee and employer at serious risk of violating compliance/HR/tax laws. For example, there is something called Workers Compensation that the employer has to buy. If an employee gets injured while working, workers comp. may matter based on the location of where they were at the time and can get denied if there are discrepancies. As an employer, we absolutely cannot risk having employees working from anywhere when they are supposed to work from specific locations only. No one likes these stupid laws but we have to follow it as an employer. It is a little bit easier for international hires if they are just doing contract but even then things like W8-BEN etc come into play and dealing with IRS is always tricky and risky. Honestly, if we are going fully remote (anywhere,anytime), we almost need a multi-national agreement/treaty so that employers are not left trying to deal with BS stuff. And no, services like Deel/remote.com are not enough.
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  It really seems like what we’re really discovering is that employment law is completely insane and ridiculously out of days.
  - deckard1 4y ago
    globalization, cheap easy access to air travel, and the internet are breaking down the systems that were working fine for countless years. It's not limited to employment, either. Create a SaaS or other internet-based business and try to serve customers outside your nation. Or even outside the border of your state/territory/province. Entire services such as Paddle exist just to deal with this. But I suspect most people are trying to fly under the radar here using regular Stripe, etc. and not dealing with any of it, just like digital nomads do.
- bombcar 4y ago
  In the US there are already many states with population centers that cross state boundaries; those states often have negotiated with each other to solve some or most of these issues. So if you live in Wisconsin but drive to Minneapolis for work each day, they know how to handle it. We need more of those and closer to pairings for all states to make true "work from anywhere in the US" possible. I doubt it'll happen, because the states won't agree on the baseline level.
IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
Who created this liability for companies? This doesn't make sense. Is there a specific rule anywhere federally that any US state that says you must be aware at all times where your employees are when spending personal (non-work) travel time? Moreover: 1) Can a state with no tax nexus to the firm (until the employee moved into it) have some kind of enforcement mechanism on the company ? If (1) is no, and it comes down to a judge, 2) is there any case law that shows what is reasonable ? Does employer need to check every month ? every year? 3) Does a company have any responsibility if the employee lies ?
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  You must be aware of where your employees are working from because you have an obligation to follow the employment and tax laws of that location. If your employee isn't doing work, you aren't required to care (beyond any IP or personal security concerns you may have).
  - wyager 4y ago
    This is one reason among many we should eliminate employer-based tax enforcement. Your taxes should be between you and the government; the government should not force your employer to act as a tax nanny (e.g. with mandatory withholding).
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      That still wouldn't absolve companies of the obligation to know where employees are working from. Employment laws and worker protections vary from one state and city to another. To give one example, I had a friend that was fired from his Arizona job in ~2015 when his boss found out he was gay. If that friend had been working from California instead, he would have had legal protections.
      - llbeansandrice 4y ago
        I understand your point but axing the entire tax portion of this problem is massive. Sure, your employer would probably still have to know to some degree, but it would be much easier and could end up with something like "you don't need to tell us unless you're working from $listOfPlaces".
aiisahik 4y ago
It may but mostly likely won't unless you're a huge company. I hired a bunch of people outside the US and it's not a problem. Use Deel and hire them as contractors. Make the contractors fill out W8BENs. Don't let the HR folks and lawyers scare you - they don't understand risk vs reward mentality of a startup founder.
- codegeek 4y ago
  Outside the US is a bit easier. How would you hire an out of state employee IN the US who moves to a different state ? You will need to register your business in that state then. Deal/remote.com don't help with that.
  - aiisahik 4y ago
    Already had that happen. Employee moved out of NY to FL. Did nothing except categorizing him as a FL resident in our HR system. Did not have to form a new business in FL or register as a foreign entity there. Employee lowered his taxes because he is no longer paying NY taxes. Great for everyone!
    - codegeek 4y ago
      "Did not have to form a new business in FL" You may want to double check this. May be your HR System filed stuff on your company's behalf but you absolutely need to have a setup in the state where your employees work and that includes Florida.
    - randerson 4y ago
      Unless he meets very specific criteria he may still owe taxes.
nicwolff 4y ago
Ouch, yeah. My team is losing a truly excellent engineer because he moved home to the UK during the pandemic, and corporate eventually noticed and said he could either 1. switch to our UK unit and work on their projects at their pay scale, or 2. leave the company. He's leaving to work for a friend's startup and I hope he gets rich.

creaghpatr 4y ago

On the bright side, we'll have 87,000 new IRS agents to catch these unwitting tax cheats.

MisterTea 4y ago
Its 2022. An AI will automate it.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Yes. Badly, with arbitrary punishments for those it finds out of compliance, and no appeals.
  - MisterTea 4y ago
    I should have included the /s tag as the humor appears to be lost on most.
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      To be perfectly fair, I don't think "It's $DATE, that should be automated by AI by now" is really a joking matter on this site, considering the audience. :)
dfxm12 4y ago
I don't think the IRS agents will catch the guy in the article who allegedly lives and works in England, but actually lives in Thailand and works in England :)

jimcavel888 4y ago

srk_hn 4y ago

Real question: Strictly speaking from a software engineering perspective, who cares? Why does a framework of taxes created by people who don't understand technology get to decide where I move around to? I signed up for your job in a certain location and a certain date. That doesn't entitle you to keep track of where I am the rest of my life. As long as I'm able to be reached at the initially agreed upon location, regardless of how I maintain that communications channel, I never agreed to let you dictate where I live and move to and frankly nobody has that right. Or is my body my choice just a convenient catchphrase for one topic only?

EveYoung 4y ago
Well, you should care about it because laws apply to you whether you agree with them or not. So, at the end of the day both you and your employer will have to cover those costs. But nobody is preventing you from moving, you just might have to quit and look for a new job.
CydeWeys 4y ago
> Real question: Strictly speaking from a software engineering perspective, who cares? Why does a framework of taxes created by people who don't understand technology get to decide where I move around to? Real answer: The "software engineering perspective" you have here is irrelevant to tax/immigration law. Taxation is based on where you live and work (physically). And countries very much get their say on whether or not they'll allow you to live there, for how long, and for what purposes.
guhidalg 4y ago
Serious answer: Wherever you choose to live, you benefit directly or indirectly from services paid through taxes. Maybe your employer doesn't care where you live, but the jurisdiction where YOU are does care about where you work because you are being paid but you are not paying what others around you are paying to live there. This is a 3-sided relationship between you, your employer, and the civil society you live in and WFH in a different country is unfair to one side of that triangle.
- 4y ago

fantod 4y ago

Not to mention visa and health insurance issues.

codegeek 4y ago

Yep. When I am hiring remote in US (out of state), we put a condition in the contract that you will notify us if you are planning to move from your home state because we may have to establish tax residency/nexus in that state as an employer. If an employee moves somewhere else and lies about it, it can put both the employee and employer at serious risk of violating compliance/HR/tax laws. For example, there is something called Workers Compensation that the employer has to buy. If an employee gets injured while working, workers comp. may matter based on the location of where they were at the time and can get denied if there are discrepancies. As an employer, we absolutely cannot risk having employees working from anywhere when they are supposed to work from specific locations only. No one likes these stupid laws but we have to follow it as an employer. It is a little bit easier for international hires if they are just doing contract but even then things like W8-BEN etc come into play and dealing with IRS is always tricky and risky. Honestly, if we are going fully remote (anywhere,anytime), we almost need a multi-national agreement/treaty so that employers are not left trying to deal with BS stuff. And no, services like Deel/remote.com are not enough.

commandlinefan 4y ago
It really seems like what we’re really discovering is that employment law is completely insane and ridiculously out of days.
- deckard1 4y ago
  globalization, cheap easy access to air travel, and the internet are breaking down the systems that were working fine for countless years. It's not limited to employment, either. Create a SaaS or other internet-based business and try to serve customers outside your nation. Or even outside the border of your state/territory/province. Entire services such as Paddle exist just to deal with this. But I suspect most people are trying to fly under the radar here using regular Stripe, etc. and not dealing with any of it, just like digital nomads do.
bombcar 4y ago
In the US there are already many states with population centers that cross state boundaries; those states often have negotiated with each other to solve some or most of these issues. So if you live in Wisconsin but drive to Minneapolis for work each day, they know how to handle it. We need more of those and closer to pairings for all states to make true "work from anywhere in the US" possible. I doubt it'll happen, because the states won't agree on the baseline level.

IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago

Who created this liability for companies? This doesn't make sense. Is there a specific rule anywhere federally that any US state that says you must be aware at all times where your employees are when spending personal (non-work) travel time? Moreover: 1) Can a state with no tax nexus to the firm (until the employee moved into it) have some kind of enforcement mechanism on the company ? If (1) is no, and it comes down to a judge, 2) is there any case law that shows what is reasonable ? Does employer need to check every month ? every year? 3) Does a company have any responsibility if the employee lies ?

AlotOfReading 4y ago
You must be aware of where your employees are working from because you have an obligation to follow the employment and tax laws of that location. If your employee isn't doing work, you aren't required to care (beyond any IP or personal security concerns you may have).
- wyager 4y ago
  This is one reason among many we should eliminate employer-based tax enforcement. Your taxes should be between you and the government; the government should not force your employer to act as a tax nanny (e.g. with mandatory withholding).
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    That still wouldn't absolve companies of the obligation to know where employees are working from. Employment laws and worker protections vary from one state and city to another. To give one example, I had a friend that was fired from his Arizona job in ~2015 when his boss found out he was gay. If that friend had been working from California instead, he would have had legal protections.
    - llbeansandrice 4y ago
      I understand your point but axing the entire tax portion of this problem is massive. Sure, your employer would probably still have to know to some degree, but it would be much easier and could end up with something like "you don't need to tell us unless you're working from $listOfPlaces".

aiisahik 4y ago

It may but mostly likely won't unless you're a huge company. I hired a bunch of people outside the US and it's not a problem. Use Deel and hire them as contractors. Make the contractors fill out W8BENs. Don't let the HR folks and lawyers scare you - they don't understand risk vs reward mentality of a startup founder.

codegeek 4y ago
Outside the US is a bit easier. How would you hire an out of state employee IN the US who moves to a different state ? You will need to register your business in that state then. Deal/remote.com don't help with that.
- aiisahik 4y ago
  Already had that happen. Employee moved out of NY to FL. Did nothing except categorizing him as a FL resident in our HR system. Did not have to form a new business in FL or register as a foreign entity there. Employee lowered his taxes because he is no longer paying NY taxes. Great for everyone!
  - codegeek 4y ago
    "Did not have to form a new business in FL" You may want to double check this. May be your HR System filed stuff on your company's behalf but you absolutely need to have a setup in the state where your employees work and that includes Florida.
  - randerson 4y ago
    Unless he meets very specific criteria he may still owe taxes.

nicwolff 4y ago

Ouch, yeah. My team is losing a truly excellent engineer because he moved home to the UK during the pandemic, and corporate eventually noticed and said he could either 1. switch to our UK unit and work on their projects at their pay scale, or 2. leave the company. He's leaving to work for a friend's startup and I hope he gets rich.