6 ms·

Going anon for this I grew up poor, got in trouble with the law at 18 - but was coding since I was 9, now I have been writing software for 20+ years profession

Going anon for this I grew up poor, got in trouble with the law at 18 - but was coding since I was 9, now I have been writing software for 20+ years professionally, no degree, and have never been able to clear more than 250k - moved from coding to mgmt but still cant break 250. I looked at changing companies to a FAANG but haven’t been able to dedicate the massive amount of time needed to prep for the algo whiteboard / leetcode interview process (which I still don’t really understand as most of the actual work needed to be done will require 0 of this) After taxes my take home is so low I still can’t afford to own a home here in ny. Tried migrating to sv a few years back but it’s even more expensive than ny. I’ve always kept my hands on skills up to date, coded large distributed systems that are in prod supporting millions of daily’s, big data pipelines capturing billions of records daily and as mgmt, onboarded and trained juniors who’ve gone on to big tech and been able to far surpass me in earnings. Disillusioned and wondering what advice HN might suggest. - ny anon, beard greying and hope depleting

JustLurking2022 4y ago
Have you looked into living in NJ? In honesty, I don't know that there'll be much sympathy for someone able to make $250k/yr with no degree. NYC is an expensive place to live period. Virtually everyone I know who lives in the city rents.
jongjong 4y ago
They probably have a rich, well connected daddy. For normal people, $250k is probably as high as you can possibly go. I also have experience with distributed systems, worked 80 hours a week for 10 years straight and built several popular open source projects and I can't get past $80k... Almost feels like a conspiracy against me at this stage but I suspect it just comes down to not having a rich daddy who is connected to politicians and corporate execs. If you look at any rich person these days with a high salary, there is always a rich daddy, rich mommy, rich sugarmomma, rich sugardaddy or rich buddies pulling strings behind the scenes. It's just the new spoiled brat reality. HR people probably run candidates through an opaque automated system which filters out anyone who doesn't have a rich sugardaddy.
- ajkjk 4y ago
  > Almost feels like a conspiracy against me at this stage but I suspect it just comes down to not having a rich daddy who is connected to politicians and corporate execs. I don't know where you live but there is no way this is the case. 80k is less than starting salaries for new grads. Maybe you meant 180k? In which case, that's still around the level for a second level employee at a big company (a few years of experience). Getting a job at FAANG or whatever else doesn't require special connections, just knowing how to interview and knowing how to be pleasant to work with. It doesn't require connections at all -- if anything it's one of the most democratic hiring processes of any field, where you can apply online and have a job a few months later on your merit alone without any networking being required.
  - MauranKilom 4y ago
    Outside the US, 80k is a high salary. It matters a lot which country we are talking about for whether 80k with that experience is insanely low (USA) or insanely high (India). Take a look at the StackOverflow (self-reported) income statistics in various countries: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-what-languages-are-associated-with-the-highest-salaries-worldwide-global https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-wh... (compare Global vs United States) https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-total https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t... (compare All Respondents vs United States) https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-2018-updating-the-stack-overflow-salary-calculator/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...
  - jongjong 4y ago
    I recently applied to a job at a well known company which offered $160k. The interview process was going perfectly I aced every stage of the process both in terms of tech skills and communication/people skills then got to the final stage which involved talking to the director of engineering. I assumed that was just a formality and it was a done deal... But surprise, the director didn't even show up to the interview, instead I got someone else and they interviewed me. I thought it went perfectly, I was able to answer every question without issue and demonstrate my knowledge... Then after over 1 week with no response, I send them an email to ask about next steps and I get an email back saying that "Unfortunately, another candidate has been chosen"... But the thing is, I know that they had multiple positions available and we had even discussed multiple options and they saw me as a potential fit for multiple different teams. This is just one story I have among many. My resume is stellar, my communication skills are great, the interviewers always seem impressed while I'm taking to them, my colleagues always treat me with respect wherever I go... But somehow all these weird things happen to me whenever I deal with big corporations or startups backed by big VCs. Ironically, before that, I had an experience on the other side interviewing candidates at my previous company but somehow none of the really good candidates which I recommended got in. Instead, they hired only mediocre developers.
Temporary_31337 4y ago
If you can’t breach the glass ceiling, just try saving more- move outside of NY etc. You can save plenty from 250k
belmarca 4y ago
Is there any way you can work remotely? If you can get companies to pay you 250k, you can definitely write a nice resumé and probably get a remote job in this market. I know people who have the kind of history you mention but didn't end up in tech and they don't make anywhere near 250k/y. So all is not lost ;)
thiht 4y ago
If you earn 250k and can’t buy a home, relocate, that sounds like a nightmare. I’m in France and up until last month I earned ~45k€. I bought my home 2 years ago. I can’t imagine living somewhere where 250k is not enough to live, that’s insane. If you relocate you probably won’t make 250k, but your money might be worth something instead.
ecshafer 4y ago
When you say NY I assume you mean NYC. If you want to buy a house you either need to live somewhere cheaper or make more money. $250k salary following a 3 rule is $750k should be enough to buy a house in NYC, it will not be in Manhattan. Staten Island, the not hip parts of Brooklyn, Queens, or going to the suburbs is where you need to go to make that possible. A lot of the people who buy houses in Manhattan and such are doing so with a combination of family money, or they are a double income couple where both are making $250k, or someone is just making a ton of money. If you want to go to big tech you need to do the grunt work of studying algorithms. The Finance places are probably going to be harder to get into with no degree, but depending on your infra skills it might be possible.
baron816 4y ago
Don’t study leetcode. If you want to work at FAANG, get some interviews with them. You may discover that you really didn’t need to spend days studying stuff that’s not relevant to your job. At the very least, you’ll get some interview practice and figure out what you do need to study. Those companies will let you interview again and again after a 6-12 month break. Also, companies like Stripe and Airbnb also pay competitively with FAANG. There’s probably 15-20 biggish companies out there that would pay in the ballpark of what you’re looking for.
- aynyc 4y ago
  If you want to work at FAANG, get some interviews with them. That requires Leetcode, no? Am I missing something?
  - ajkjk 4y ago
    I dunno where everyone got the idea that Leetcode is required for this stuff. You learn everything you need to pass these interviews in a 101 or 102 level algorithms/data structures class.
    - AnotherGoodName 4y ago
      This is weird because I work at FAANG and one of the things that everyone acknowledges is that we all studied to get past the damn interview loop. Yes it is covered in classes, there is nothing new but at the very least you need to brush up.
      - ajkjk 4y ago
        Sure, you should study a bit. That doesn't mean you have to 'grind leetcode' or anything. I usually go implement a couple data structures (a heap and a graph search, or something) and then feel pretty good. Typical interview questions just aren't that hard and if you aren't too nervous about it you can figure them out live if you know basic computer science.
wnolens 4y ago
Swallow the leetcode prep slowly over time, and then FAANG. Play the startup lottery (potentially high equity that will pay off in 5-10y). Try a hedge fund (high base). Move up the management ladder. Side gig product or sell a course on something you have unique expertise in. Move to Philly!
- creativemonkeys 4y ago
  I'm moving to PA, so out of curiosity, why are you recommending to move to Philly?
  - wnolens 4y ago
    I assumed OP has a relatively high cost of living in NY, and can work remotely (either at current job or an equivalently paying one). Then Philly is close-by (can still get to NY for friends/family, similar east coast culture), still a cool city (I had a lot of fun visiting), and MUCH lower cost of living. I saw nice houses there in cool neighborhoods for 300k. It made me strongly consider the emotional cost of starting over in yet another city, just to be able to own where I live and have it be very comfortable.
aynyc 4y ago
What industry are you in? You should be able to break 250K in finance.
omni 4y ago
If you can't afford an apartment on 250K you need to take a serious look at your spending and figure out what you actually want to prioritize. Sure, you won't be picking up a $3M apartment overlooking Central Park, but toooooons of Brooklyn and Queens should be affordable to you with that level of income. I got a mortgage a few years ago when I was only pulling down $180K and I was approved for up to $1MM loan, most of the city is doable at that budget. https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/brooklyn/price:-1000000?view=map https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/brooklyn/price:-1000000?view...
- roflyear 4y ago
  I agree... likely this person is paying something like $5k/m in rent and wonders why they have no money.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I imagine this person has some other expenses they are not disclosing. Or they have a SO that doesn't work or something. Otherwise it makes no sense. $250k is not rich in NYC - but you can get a house in NYC for $250k....
- mywittyname 4y ago
  I don't think this person is claiming to make 250k. They probably used that as a reference figure because the root post uses that as a reference point. Most likely this person makes a more median tech salary in the mid 100s.
  - thiht 4y ago
    > never been able to clear more than 250k - moved from coding to mgmt but still cant break 250 Even though making $100k fits this description, it would be like saying Julius Caesar died more than 10 years ago. that's technically true but no one would say that. It's implied from the part I cited he makes around 250k, maybe fluctuating between 230 and 240
rr888 4y ago
90% of NYC IT dept lives in Jersey. 150k is enough for a family to live on. Get on the train at 6am like the rest of us. :)

JustLurking2022 4y ago

Have you looked into living in NJ? In honesty, I don't know that there'll be much sympathy for someone able to make $250k/yr with no degree. NYC is an expensive place to live period. Virtually everyone I know who lives in the city rents.

jongjong 4y ago

They probably have a rich, well connected daddy. For normal people, $250k is probably as high as you can possibly go. I also have experience with distributed systems, worked 80 hours a week for 10 years straight and built several popular open source projects and I can't get past $80k... Almost feels like a conspiracy against me at this stage but I suspect it just comes down to not having a rich daddy who is connected to politicians and corporate execs. If you look at any rich person these days with a high salary, there is always a rich daddy, rich mommy, rich sugarmomma, rich sugardaddy or rich buddies pulling strings behind the scenes. It's just the new spoiled brat reality. HR people probably run candidates through an opaque automated system which filters out anyone who doesn't have a rich sugardaddy.

ajkjk 4y ago
> Almost feels like a conspiracy against me at this stage but I suspect it just comes down to not having a rich daddy who is connected to politicians and corporate execs. I don't know where you live but there is no way this is the case. 80k is less than starting salaries for new grads. Maybe you meant 180k? In which case, that's still around the level for a second level employee at a big company (a few years of experience). Getting a job at FAANG or whatever else doesn't require special connections, just knowing how to interview and knowing how to be pleasant to work with. It doesn't require connections at all -- if anything it's one of the most democratic hiring processes of any field, where you can apply online and have a job a few months later on your merit alone without any networking being required.
- MauranKilom 4y ago
  Outside the US, 80k is a high salary. It matters a lot which country we are talking about for whether 80k with that experience is insanely low (USA) or insanely high (India). Take a look at the StackOverflow (self-reported) income statistics in various countries: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-what-languages-are-associated-with-the-highest-salaries-worldwide-global https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#technology-wh... (compare Global vs United States) https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-total https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t... (compare All Respondents vs United States) https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-2018-updating-the-stack-overflow-salary-calculator/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/09/05/developer-salaries-in-...
- jongjong 4y ago
  I recently applied to a job at a well known company which offered $160k. The interview process was going perfectly I aced every stage of the process both in terms of tech skills and communication/people skills then got to the final stage which involved talking to the director of engineering. I assumed that was just a formality and it was a done deal... But surprise, the director didn't even show up to the interview, instead I got someone else and they interviewed me. I thought it went perfectly, I was able to answer every question without issue and demonstrate my knowledge... Then after over 1 week with no response, I send them an email to ask about next steps and I get an email back saying that "Unfortunately, another candidate has been chosen"... But the thing is, I know that they had multiple positions available and we had even discussed multiple options and they saw me as a potential fit for multiple different teams. This is just one story I have among many. My resume is stellar, my communication skills are great, the interviewers always seem impressed while I'm taking to them, my colleagues always treat me with respect wherever I go... But somehow all these weird things happen to me whenever I deal with big corporations or startups backed by big VCs. Ironically, before that, I had an experience on the other side interviewing candidates at my previous company but somehow none of the really good candidates which I recommended got in. Instead, they hired only mediocre developers.

Temporary_31337 4y ago

If you can’t breach the glass ceiling, just try saving more- move outside of NY etc. You can save plenty from 250k

belmarca 4y ago

Is there any way you can work remotely? If you can get companies to pay you 250k, you can definitely write a nice resumé and probably get a remote job in this market. I know people who have the kind of history you mention but didn't end up in tech and they don't make anywhere near 250k/y. So all is not lost ;)

thiht 4y ago

If you earn 250k and can’t buy a home, relocate, that sounds like a nightmare. I’m in France and up until last month I earned ~45k€. I bought my home 2 years ago. I can’t imagine living somewhere where 250k is not enough to live, that’s insane. If you relocate you probably won’t make 250k, but your money might be worth something instead.

ecshafer 4y ago

When you say NY I assume you mean NYC. If you want to buy a house you either need to live somewhere cheaper or make more money. $250k salary following a 3 rule is $750k should be enough to buy a house in NYC, it will not be in Manhattan. Staten Island, the not hip parts of Brooklyn, Queens, or going to the suburbs is where you need to go to make that possible. A lot of the people who buy houses in Manhattan and such are doing so with a combination of family money, or they are a double income couple where both are making $250k, or someone is just making a ton of money. If you want to go to big tech you need to do the grunt work of studying algorithms. The Finance places are probably going to be harder to get into with no degree, but depending on your infra skills it might be possible.

baron816 4y ago

Don’t study leetcode. If you want to work at FAANG, get some interviews with them. You may discover that you really didn’t need to spend days studying stuff that’s not relevant to your job. At the very least, you’ll get some interview practice and figure out what you do need to study. Those companies will let you interview again and again after a 6-12 month break. Also, companies like Stripe and Airbnb also pay competitively with FAANG. There’s probably 15-20 biggish companies out there that would pay in the ballpark of what you’re looking for.

aynyc 4y ago
If you want to work at FAANG, get some interviews with them. That requires Leetcode, no? Am I missing something?
- ajkjk 4y ago
  I dunno where everyone got the idea that Leetcode is required for this stuff. You learn everything you need to pass these interviews in a 101 or 102 level algorithms/data structures class.
  - AnotherGoodName 4y ago
    This is weird because I work at FAANG and one of the things that everyone acknowledges is that we all studied to get past the damn interview loop. Yes it is covered in classes, there is nothing new but at the very least you need to brush up.
    - ajkjk 4y ago
      Sure, you should study a bit. That doesn't mean you have to 'grind leetcode' or anything. I usually go implement a couple data structures (a heap and a graph search, or something) and then feel pretty good. Typical interview questions just aren't that hard and if you aren't too nervous about it you can figure them out live if you know basic computer science.

wnolens 4y ago

Swallow the leetcode prep slowly over time, and then FAANG. Play the startup lottery (potentially high equity that will pay off in 5-10y). Try a hedge fund (high base). Move up the management ladder. Side gig product or sell a course on something you have unique expertise in. Move to Philly!

creativemonkeys 4y ago
I'm moving to PA, so out of curiosity, why are you recommending to move to Philly?
- wnolens 4y ago
  I assumed OP has a relatively high cost of living in NY, and can work remotely (either at current job or an equivalently paying one). Then Philly is close-by (can still get to NY for friends/family, similar east coast culture), still a cool city (I had a lot of fun visiting), and MUCH lower cost of living. I saw nice houses there in cool neighborhoods for 300k. It made me strongly consider the emotional cost of starting over in yet another city, just to be able to own where I live and have it be very comfortable.

aynyc 4y ago

What industry are you in? You should be able to break 250K in finance.

omni 4y ago

If you can't afford an apartment on 250K you need to take a serious look at your spending and figure out what you actually want to prioritize. Sure, you won't be picking up a $3M apartment overlooking Central Park, but toooooons of Brooklyn and Queens should be affordable to you with that level of income. I got a mortgage a few years ago when I was only pulling down $180K and I was approved for up to $1MM loan, most of the city is doable at that budget. https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/brooklyn/price:-1000000?view=map https://streeteasy.com/for-sale/brooklyn/price:-1000000?view...

roflyear 4y ago
I agree... likely this person is paying something like $5k/m in rent and wonders why they have no money.
roflyear 4y ago
I imagine this person has some other expenses they are not disclosing. Or they have a SO that doesn't work or something. Otherwise it makes no sense. $250k is not rich in NYC - but you can get a house in NYC for $250k....
mywittyname 4y ago
I don't think this person is claiming to make 250k. They probably used that as a reference figure because the root post uses that as a reference point. Most likely this person makes a more median tech salary in the mid 100s.
- thiht 4y ago
  > never been able to clear more than 250k - moved from coding to mgmt but still cant break 250 Even though making $100k fits this description, it would be like saying Julius Caesar died more than 10 years ago. that's technically true but no one would say that. It's implied from the part I cited he makes around 250k, maybe fluctuating between 230 and 240

rr888 4y ago

90% of NYC IT dept lives in Jersey. 150k is enough for a family to live on. Get on the train at 6am like the rest of us. :)